back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
|
Post by back to *pea*ality on Nov 12, 2014 19:42:15 GMT
Merge, why do you feel like the Republicans refused a reasonable discussion? IMO, there were many attempts at discussion that were rebuffed by Obama and the Dems because they knew they had the votes to pass whatever they wanted. Even now, when the voters have spoken about Obama's policies, he continues to thumb his nose at us all threatening to use "executive actions" to do whatever he wants. And frankly I find the lying to be the worst offense. The lack of responsibility for our representatives failing to speak the truth and the passive acceptance of that by the people really sickens me. I feel that there was no effort to get bi-partisan support for ACA. As I said earlier in the thread, health care reform was necessary and should have been crafted to the benefit of all Americans. But what really happened was those who were insured have had their premiums increased to cover the uninsured. As Gruber gleefully admits, stupid Americans were lied to by design. |
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Nov 12, 2014 19:49:14 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Nov 12, 2014 20:42:26 GMT
I'm always left wondering in these threads: A. If the Republicans posting feel that our healthcare system was hunky dory before the ACA was passed, and B. If not, what plan would you have preferred to fix it? I'm not exactly a Republican, but close enough to answer. A) There actually were a lot of things that were hunky dory before the ACA in our healthcare system for many millions of people. There were huge cracks that needed to be filled in, though. B) I think we need to go back to how we began having health insurance to begin with to see where it began to go off the rails instead of just trying to steer the ever accelerating train down different tracks. Health insurance was a salary benefit offered to attract top service personnel returning from WWII when there was a federal cap on salary wages allowed to be offered. This coincided with a tremendous advancement in medical technology, which made medical care much more costly than ever before. Thus the cycle began and workers got trapped into working for employers out of fear of not being able to take care of their families. This is what happened to me and my family. The idea that fixing the problem of healthcare for all by making an already inefficient and swollen bureaucracy larger defies common sense. We have set ourselves up for an even greater crisis by relying on the government even more, and that is my greatest concern about Obamacare. I just don't believe it has the foundation needed to support the load. Obama is the most arrogant president I can remember. He has personally steered this law into the horrible, tangled mess that it is. It's incredible that this mess is considered the best we as a nation are capable of coming up with. |
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Nov 12, 2014 20:52:03 GMT
Ok, but in your perfect world, what would have happened instead of the ACA? All we get from the right is a litany of things wrong with ACA without any concrete alternative ideas. I don't love the ACA but it's worth pointing out that many of its key features first appeared in a Republican healthcare reform bill in 1993. Then maybe the Republican healthcare reform bill of 1993 would have been a good place to have started. <I have no idea what was in the bill..... > |
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Nov 12, 2014 20:59:53 GMT
Of course the ACA doesn't, either. It's really a bad compromise with conservatives who wouldn't hear of a single payer plan. And IMO a SPP is the only way to make sure Americans have necessary medical care. I have a made love for Merge and that's why I'm singling her quotes out.  Single server gives the government even more authority that they are not capable of being responsible for. It's really as simple as that. |
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Nov 12, 2014 21:06:27 GMT
Sorry, I'm not ignoring the conversation ... I posted earlier at lunch and have been working since then. Off to run an after school rehearsal now but I'll try to get back to it this evening.
|
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Nov 12, 2014 21:10:35 GMT
No. I was doing a ton of reading at the time, including researching many things that I was reading in articles, some things on the boards, etc. There were many aspects to be considered. I went to a great deal of time and trouble to back up what I was saying with data from credible sources. When the bill was passed, I just deleted it all. This is a multi-faceted topic, which is why those threads went for pages on end. I'm not going to re-research all the things I already did. There is certainly plenty of information out there available to anyone who is truly interested. None of which is germane to the topic at hand ... how the bill was passed. |
|
|
|
Post by momof3pits on Nov 12, 2014 21:13:25 GMT
Whether the ACA was a bad idea or the greatest thing since sliced bread is not really the issue here, IMO. Do we hold people accountable for openly admitting that they lied to the American people just so they could get their way? Or is it all good as long as you're on the "winning" side? If this is acceptable now...do what you want by any means possible....I just want to know so that we are all on the same page. If it's not acceptable, what should the response be? You're absolutely right. We're being dragged off topic into fighting mode.
The issue with this comment and the issue at hand is...this administration knowingly lied to America. And some think this is so normal and to be expected...and is okay. And others think that this kind of nonsense in DC needs to come to an end. Some feel the end (passage of ACA) justifies the means...but I can't help but wonder if they would feel the same if something they felt really, REALLY strongly about was handled in the same fashion, if they'd still be so okay about it.
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? |
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Nov 12, 2014 21:17:04 GMT
Maybe we could choose to fix the system for everyone instead of blocking every attempt to fix it on the grounds that someone undeserving might benefit. Personally, I fee like the ACA is both parties' fault. The Democrats who let themselves be bullied into a crappy "compromise" and then lied about it and the Republicans who mulishly refused any discussion of reasonable alternatives. Ooops. The Republicans tried that. On a party line vote, Democrats killed the resolution. |
|
River
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,627
Jun 26, 2014 15:26:04 GMT
|
Post by River on Nov 12, 2014 22:21:29 GMT
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? This is my question also! The ACA has almost crippled my just above middle class family, this year especially! My insurance premiums doubled, my out of pocket deductible tripled, and they REMOVED physician co-pays. So starting this year we can not go to the doctor without paying $120 per visit until we meet our tripled deductible, at which time they will begin to pay 80%. Thank god my extreme illness happened in 2013. We would be bankrupt if it had happened to me early this year. I had pride and knew we were fortunate to have good jobs that provided good health insurance for my family. Now all I can say is that I'm still very thankful for our jobs. I wanted something to be done, but not really ACA. I did want others to have insurance like my family HAD, but didn't buy into the now confirmed lies told and how ACA was passed. (my first controversial post, I'm ducking my head now.) |
|
|
|
Post by leftturnonly on Nov 12, 2014 22:33:48 GMT
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? This is my question also! The ACA has almost crippled my just above middle class family, this year especially! My insurance premiums doubled, my out of pocket deductible tripled, and they REMOVED physician co-pays. So starting this year we can not go to the doctor without paying $120 per visit until we meet our tripled deductible, at which time they will begin to pay 80%. Thank god my extreme illness happened in 2013. We would be bankrupt if it had happened to me early this year. I had pride and knew we were fortunate to have good jobs that provided good health insurance for my family. Now all I can say is that I'm still very thankful for our jobs. I wanted something to be done, but not really ACA. I did want others to have insurance like my family HAD, but didn't buy into the now confirmed lies told and how ACA was passed. (my first controversial post, I'm ducking my head now.)You done good.  |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:46 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 22:36:32 GMT
@tracey ... I have posted on controversial topics for years and rarely have a problem. As long as you're respectful and are trying to discuss the subject at hand without being snarky, you'll be fine.  The above post meets all those requirements. I'm truly sorry the ACA affected your family so adversely. That insurance sounds horrible! |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:46 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 22:37:21 GMT
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? This is my question also! The ACA has almost crippled my just above middle class family, this year especially! My insurance premiums doubled, my out of pocket deductible tripled, and they REMOVED physician co-pays. So starting this year we can not go to the doctor without paying $120 per visit until we meet our tripled deductible, at which time they will begin to pay 80%. Thank god my extreme illness happened in 2013. We would be bankrupt if it had happened to me early this year. I had pride and knew we were fortunate to have good jobs that provided good health insurance for my family. Now all I can say is that I'm still very thankful for our jobs. I wanted something to be done, but not really ACA. I did want others to have insurance like my family HAD, but didn't buy into the now confirmed lies told and how ACA was passed. (my first controversial post, I'm ducking my head now.) This is a sincere question. Did you ask your employer why the increase and when they found out there would be an increase did they check for alternative markets? The last time my insurance premium went up our employer took time at our general company meeting and had our Benefits guy explain why there was an increase. Granted I work for an Insurance Broker that happens to write Benefits insurance but ALL employers should be doing this for their employees. The reason we were given. A high increase of claims in the $25k - $50k range were presented. And a small part of the increase was ACA related. Made sense about the increase in claims. We had a baby boom at our company. If your employer isn't talking to you about the reason for the increase then they should. |
|
|
|
Post by Kymberlee on Nov 12, 2014 22:39:25 GMT
I'm sorta   that the Democrats were bullied by Republicans into a crappy compromise. Huh?  I don't recall any compromise going on in DC at the time this bill was passed. Going back and forth whether or not this was a crap bill/the greatest thing ever bill is done, though. We've been there done that. We can argue the good and bad of the ACA until the cows come home. I'm just flabbergasted that people are OK with what this guy said and how ultimately this bill was passed We were lied to, called stupid, deliberately misled to believe how wonderful Obamacare was going to be. They LIED through their teeth to get this bill passed and knew that if they told the truth, the American people wouldn't support it. They lied and then called We The People too stupid to know the difference. Now they are being called out about their BS lies and I feel we are getting the proverbial shoulder shrug from those that authored and supported the bill. I just do not get it. |
|
|
|
Post by katieanna on Nov 13, 2014 0:48:52 GMT
I don't think anyone believed the healthcare system was great the way it was. BUT, there were many options laid out by Republicans that didn't make it into the ACA. Why? Because they weren't invited to the table. Some of the provisions in the ACA are good. Some are not. But we never really got the chance to see which was which because it was rammed through without discussion. Perhaps some of the bad ideas could have been pointed out and improved. In my mind, the biggest problem with the ACA is the enormity of it. Too much all at one time and we get problem after problem. Why not break it up into smaller chunks and implement a little at a time? It would give more time to see potential consequences and iron out the wrinkles. And for heaven's sake, stop favoring some groups of people over others. It should apply equally to all Americans, regardless of union membership, or not at all. Not only that, but how often are huge government-run programs really efficient and successful? The bigger the bureacracy, the more fraud potential. The bigger the bureacracy, the more costly to the US taxpayer. Did anyone really think the ACA would break that mold and be affordable to the middle class? Open up interstate competition. As it is now, there are few options that are affordable. Do away with the ridiculous requirements that people won't need and won't use. When something doesn't work, get rid of it. And don't lie to the American people about it. Bravo! Great post, Nicksmom. I couldn't agree more. |
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Nov 13, 2014 1:00:56 GMT
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? I voted ... against everyone on the ballot who voted for the ACA. Maybe a lot of other people did as well, considering the results of the recent election. |
|
|
|
Post by ntsf on Nov 13, 2014 1:07:18 GMT
well..maybe it should be replaced by putting us all in the medicare system..raise the doctor's fee and keep spending more to fight fraud. it is a system most are happy with...it has low administration costs and it is a big govt program that works. get rid of the insurance companies. or go with the swiss model and require insurance companies to cover everyone..lower the premiums based on income, and have them compete for our business. our system is before and after the aca more expensive than any in the world and has worse outcomes for all. than many other industrialized countries. we currently have the best outcomes for some, good outcomes for many and poor outcomes for too many poor people.
|
|
|
|
Post by momof3pits on Nov 13, 2014 1:14:29 GMT
I think the question we should be asking is what course of action do we as constitutes, the little people, have to punish bad behavior in DC? I voted ... against everyone on the ballot who voted for the ACA. Maybe a lot of other people did as well, considering the results of the recent election. I think the true problem lies in the fact that if we are really honest regardless of our political leaning, both sides are pretty lackluster. So yes, we can vote to try and bring about change, but really it just puts a new money hungry, self serving person into the position. |
|
|
|
Post by katieanna on Nov 13, 2014 1:17:45 GMT
The idea that fixing the problem of healthcare for all by making an already inefficient and swollen bureaucracy larger defies common sense. We have set ourselves up for an even greater crisis by relying on the government even more, and that is my greatest concern about Obamacare. I just don't believe it has the foundation needed to support the load. Obama is the most arrogant president I can remember. He has personally steered this law into the horrible, tangled mess that it is. It's incredible that this mess is considered the best we as a nation are capable of coming up with.  |
|
Kath
Full Member
Posts: 446
Jun 26, 2014 12:15:31 GMT
|
Post by Kath on Nov 13, 2014 1:18:02 GMT
I'm always left wondering in these threads: A. If the Republicans posting feel that our healthcare system was hunky dory before the ACA was passed, and B. If not, what plan would you have preferred to fix it?
Not a Republican, but when the significant reforms of ACA went into effect in January of 2014, when enrollment came due, our excellent, nearly free, work insurance that had stayed the same for 8 years since hire date saw the deductible increase by 300% and the premium costs double. People were crying in the break room and asking how they were going to afford it.
The following year, this year, our plan will be no longer available and for the same price, we can choose a plan where the deductible will increase by 300% again. Next year, we've already been warned, the plan with the smallest deductible available this year will disappear, the plan we have now would technically then be the best plan available, and no idea what the deductible on that plan will be or if that plan too will go away for a plan with an even higher deductible and higher costs.
Unsustainable at the current rate.
So, I guess my short answer is, I don't really care about the ideological arguments and theoretical solutions. I want the pain to stop. I want my money back. I work hard, middle-class America works hard, and we don't deserve this. I don't care how they fix the problem, but the solution shouldn't involve robbing me and the rest of middle-class America blind. That's bull.
And remember, for many families, they are healthy and use the healthcare system rarely, so this increase in cost for them is just money being poured down the drain. Money that could have bought them food or gas or clothing or maybe even a vacation, God forbid. If they do go to the doctor or someone breaks their leg, their deductible and percentage costs on top of that will cut into or wipe out their rainy day fund, their vacation fund, their college fund, or maybe even their retirement fund. This is money that was in their pocket just 2 years ago. Money they worked hard for that was theirs to spend, according to their needs.
I don't have any great solutions other than to put it back the way it was before they broke it. Eventually, sure, the old system would have needed to be changed, but not like this. This? This is a hack job.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:46 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 1:22:53 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Nov 13, 2014 1:24:00 GMT
OK, I'm back. I know you're all so excited.  A few people asked about my comment that Democrats were "bullied" into compromise. It maybe wasn't the best word to use but I'm trying to describe the chain of events that happened in 2009, during which time Republicans actually did sit on the Senate Finance Committee that created the first draft of the healthcare bill. The bill they created with input from both parties contained the individual mandate, and Obama was convinced by his advisers that this piecemeal plan was more likely than a single-payer plan to gain the votes needed for filibuster-proof passage. What I was referring to as bullying was the threat of congressional Republicans to filibuster any law they didn't like. The individual mandate was contained in several Republican-backed plans dating as far back as 1993, supported by a variety of Republican congresspeople, and altogether NOT an invention of the far left. It was an attempt at bipartisanship that stemmed from the Senate Finance committee's meetings. Inexplicably, once the bill was brought to the floor, Republicans immediately and vociferously denounced the individual mandate as unconstitutional. Even those who might have supported it in the past were "brought into line" by the Republican leadership, which felt it could not give even the glimmer of an appearance that the bill was ever a bipartisan effort. This passage is from the wikipedia article on the ACA: The italicized quote from Mitch McConnell is pretty telling as far as I'm concerned. It was never about improving healthcare. The Republicans floated something like 24 different plans or parts of plans but never bothered to come to consensus on any of them. I believe the Republican leadership took the goal of this president to reform healthcare and decided to make it his Achilles' heel. I feel like the Democrats were led into putting together a bad bill that was doomed to failure, rather than trying to pass the more progressive legislation they would have preferred, specifically so it could pass and the Republicans could then have years to trash this president and anyone associated with him. The mid-term elections bear this out. They've regained control of both houses and, if they can pull out a candidate who doesn't trip over his own feet next presidential election, are poised to take that back as well. All over a bill whose major mandate was originally a conservative idea and was supported by the Republican members of the Senate Finance Committee. The Wikipedia article is here and contains links to references to support what it says. Why do I feel like the Republicans refused to discuss reasonable alternatives? Because they couldn't manage to come up with one and have enough of them agree on it that it could be presented as an actual alternative. Also, the Democratic side did not "have the votes to pass whatever it wanted." If you recall, once Republicans made it clear they were not supporting any version of this bill in any form, the negotiating with moderate Democrats lasted up until the final moments. Recall the "Cornhusker Kickback" negotiated by Ben Nelson of Nebraska in the Senate. This bill in no way represents "what the Democrats wanted." It's a messed-up attempt at bipartisanship that was, in my opinion, engineered by the Republican minority to be an albatross around the neck of this administration. |
|
|
|
Post by Skypea on Nov 13, 2014 1:34:01 GMT
Merge, why do you feel like the Republicans refused a reasonable discussion? IMO, there were many attempts at discussion that were rebuffed by Obama and the Dems because they knew they had the votes to pass whatever they wanted. Even now, when the voters have spoken about Obama's policies, he continues to thumb his nose at us all threatening to use "executive actions" to do whatever he wants. And frankly I find the lying to be the worst offense. The lack of responsibility for our representatives failing to speak the truth and the passive acceptance of that by the people really sickens me.
totally! the 2nd paragraph gets !
how many voters just voted their liars back in? I don't vote for mcC anymore - or Flake (he's on thin ice).
|
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Nov 13, 2014 1:38:44 GMT
The fact that there had to be deals made kind of puts paid to the idea that the Democrats already had their supermajority and could pass whatever they wanted, doesn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Nov 13, 2014 1:55:42 GMT
One last comment, actually back on topic for this thread ... I'm sorry, but since when is it news that any kind of group insurance transfers wealth from one group (young/healthy) to another group (old/unhealthy). That's exactly how any kind of group insurance plan works, including the "free" or "cheap" plan your employer provided (read: paid you less in salary in order to cover your premiums) before.
If the American consumer didn't realize that, and didn't realize that a larger pool of sick people would result in higher premiums paid by the non-sick people ... maybe they are as stupid as Gruber thinks? This really shouldn't be news.
|
|
|
|
Post by Skypea on Nov 13, 2014 1:58:18 GMT
I'm sorta that the Democrats were bullied by Republicans into a crappy compromise. Huh? I don't recall any compromise going on in DC at the time this bill was passed. Going back and forth whether or not this was a crap bill/the greatest thing ever bill is done, though. We've been there done that. We can argue the good and bad of the ACA until the cows come home. your memory is good. no dems were bullied by repubs...
many, many people don't even know what happened. As far as I can find only Fox has covered it - except for 1 min by CNN on Monday. nothing on ABC, CBS or NBC. Tuesday? nothing by any of them. Wed? w/2 more clips of Gruber spouting off about it still no coverage on any of them. evidently they've been told not to cover it. Why wouldn't the media cover this? who has control?
the former ABC / CBS? reporter (not sure which one) adkinson has said that they got regular calls from the WH telling them not to run certain things. She wasn't allowed to cover certain stories. She left them.
|
|
|
|
Post by traceys on Nov 13, 2014 2:27:26 GMT
And frankly I find the lying to be the worst offense. The lack of responsibility for our representatives failing to speak the truth and the passive acceptance of that by the people really sickens me. Exactly. I'm old enough to remember the Nixon era, and nobody was more disgusted with what had happened during his reelection campaign than my Republican father. Because this was a man who he had put his trust in, and who had embarrassed and disappointed the people who supported him. Now it seems like it's just circle the wagons time. So he lied. So what. We got away with it. I think it's pathetic. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:46 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 2:36:30 GMT
The fact that there had to be deals made kind of puts paid to the idea that the Democrats already had their supermajority and could pass whatever they wanted, doesn't it? It puts paid to the idea that the law was so bad, the Democratic leadership couldn't even get their own party to support it without sweetening it up for certain states/groups. They weren't making compromises with Republicans here. They were placating their own members in exchange for a yes vote. That's pretty telling about how bad they knew it was and just didn't care. |
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Nov 13, 2014 2:47:16 GMT
The fact that there had to be deals made kind of puts paid to the idea that the Democrats already had their supermajority and could pass whatever they wanted, doesn't it? It puts paid to the idea that the law was so bad, the Democratic leadership couldn't even get their own party to support it without sweetening it up for certain states/groups. They weren't making compromises with Republicans here. They were placating their own members in exchange for a yes vote. That's pretty telling about how bad they knew it was and just didn't care. I know it's kind of a novel, but did you read my longer post on the last page? The original Senate bill, including the individual mandate and many other features of the current law, was crafted by the bipartisan Senate Finance Committee and featured the original conservative response to any liberal attempt at healthcare reform: the individual mandate. They knew it was a bad bill but also knew that a more progressive one had no chance of making it through congress because the Republicans had said they'd filibuster any kind of single payer plan. Republicans had ample opportunity to craft legislation for healthcare reform and try to gain support for it, but just couldn't be bothered to come up with a bill that enough of them could agree on. Just not a priority. So yes, Democrats were forced to put through a stinky bill to start the process of reform, because if it was up to the right, we'd still be limping along just like we were six years ago, with no change in sight. It's a bad bill, but it's a start. |
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Nov 13, 2014 3:05:13 GMT
The fact that there had to be deals made kind of puts paid to the idea that the Democrats already had their supermajority and could pass whatever they wanted, doesn't it? They made deals for DEMOCRATS and Independents who caucus with the Democrats to get on board. They could and DID do whatever they wanted without any Republican support. |
|
that the Democrats were bullied by Republicans into a crappy compromise. Huh?
I don't recall any compromise going on in DC at the time this bill was passed. Going back and forth whether or not this was a crap bill/the greatest thing ever bill is done, though. We've been there done that. We can argue the good and bad of the ACA until the cows come home. I'm just flabbergasted that people are OK with what this guy said and how ultimately this bill was passed We were lied to, called stupid, deliberately misled to believe how wonderful Obamacare was going to be. They LIED through their teeth to get this bill passed and knew that if they told the truth, the American people wouldn't support it. They lied and then called We The People too stupid to know the difference. Now they are being called out about their BS lies and I feel we are getting the proverbial shoulder shrug from those that authored and supported the bill. I just do not get it. 
