Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 4:46:29 GMT
I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is a person - no god(s) necessary to endow each person with worth and equal rights.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 28, 2021 11:57:11 GMT
How did Generals become involved in the discussion about CRT?
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 28, 2021 12:13:29 GMT
Many of us (I am a Jesus follower) really love the Old Testament where Christians conquered lands and people who did not worship the God of Abraham. And then they sacrificed bulls for their sins. Many seem to forget that Jesus came along and sacrificed himself and commanded us to humble ourselves, to not judge others, but to love people. All people. Period. Just thought I should point out that Christians didn't conquer any lands or people in the Old Testament, because Christianity didn't exist at that point.
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TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1,871
Posts: 4,838
Location: On the couch...
Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
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Post by TankTop on Jun 28, 2021 12:34:21 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. I don't hold to CRT. Before I'll explain why, I will also say that I do believe That this country was built on stolen land That institutional racism exists and has existed since our inception That the judicial system unfairly favors white people That white people have been advantaged in many forms I don't believe in American Exceptionalism I don't believe we were or are a Christian nation. I don't believe in white washing our history and I work hard to make sure I don't actively participate in doing so. And I really don't believe the things the people who spoke for me on this thread said I do. Where I diverge from CRT is here: I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God and to treat any person badly is wrong because you're treating an image bearer badly, rather than thinking it's wrong because the person is of another skin color and that skin color has been or is oppressed. Both ideas say racism is wrong. I diverge on WHY it's wrong. I also will not think of whole people groups in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Thinking ill of an entire group of people based on something they can't control, such as their skin color or who their ancestors were or what they did is the very definition of prejudice. That's not to say I don't recognize oppression, or acknowledge its part in our past or present, or even acknowledge that it has and does exist in systems, but I will not categorize human beings that way. I will not say "You're an oppressor because you're white, despite the lack of any evidence that you've ever intentionally oppressed anyone." My neighbors are a White European Husband and his Mexican wife. They have two black daughters. CRT applied to social relationships says I have to think of him as oppressing his wife and daughters simply because he's European white and they're not. I will not think of him that way because there's simply no evidence that it's true. But CRT says it must be. The theory is supposed to hold more validity than his actual actions. I also believe that each person answers for his or her own sins, not the sins of his ancestors. I'm only a third generation immigrant, my family coming from Germany and Austria in the early 20th century. I feel no more personal responsibility for slavery than I do the Holocaust. I think it's possible to say those things are horrific, without feeling I have to have personal guilt for them. I believe that's a burden of shame that's being hung on people for things their ancestors may or may not have done (in my case, they didn't). I believe people are responsible for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. Each individual IS responsible for righting wrongs that still exist and are in their power to correct, including those things that may have been set in motion by generations before, and I believe institutions need to practice repentance and change for actions of their past, but a person on an individual level is not guilty for something he did not do. Lastly, I also think it's racist to say that white people will only end racism when it benefits them. That goes back to judging poorly an entire group of people based on something out of their control. I think it's uncharitable to characterize people that way, and it is prejudiced. But, I think it's possible to diverge from CRT on those fundamental philosophies, and still agree on many of the same practical points, such as those I mentioned earlier. I agree with much of what CRT teaches about our past and present in terms of our history, our institutions, racial relations, etc. However, why it's wrong and what we do with where we are now is where I diverge. Thank you so much for your very thoughtful answer. So much of what you said resonates with me. As a teacher I focus a ton on empathy with my students. I love your lens of empathy.
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J u l e e
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,531
Location: Cincinnati
Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Jun 28, 2021 13:07:01 GMT
Many of us (I am a Jesus follower) really love the Old Testament where Christians conquered lands and people who did not worship the God of Abraham. And then they sacrificed bulls for their sins. Many seem to forget that Jesus came along and sacrificed himself and commanded us to humble ourselves, to not judge others, but to love people. All people. Period. Just thought I should point out that Christians didn't conquer any lands or people in the Old Testament, because Christianity didn't exist at that point. Thank you! Yes, of course. I typed my very flippant reply in frustration and immediately wished I hadn’t. But I left it, meaning to add thoughts later and just never did. And since no one can remember everything I post, my reply doesn’t have context. I’ve often mentioned I work for a Christian organization and have heard more than my share of Fox News talking points at staff meetings and during staff devotions - most recently through Joshua and Judges - with critical race theory and LGBTQ references tossed about. The fear and othering is strong among the older white conservative men I work with. I struggle putting any of it into words. Again, flippant and not even accurate, borne of frustration with the interpretation of CRT I experience with the Christians I am surrounded by. Thank you for pointing it out.
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2021 13:20:41 GMT
The results of...... While it appears Ted Cruz was endeavoring to ban the teaching of critical race theory, what he has inadvertently done is bar the teaching of several amendments of the Constitution. President Abraham Lincoln's effort to abolish slavery with the 13th Amendment would cause problems since it directly addresses the history of U.S. slavery that was abolished by the new law. Cruz's censorship bill would effectively bar the teaching of that as well as the 14th Amendment, which made it so any person born in the United States a citizen of the United States. It also said that no person can be denied life, liberty or property. Teaching it would likely require educators to explain why that amendment came about, which would be censored by Cruz's bill. It would also stop the teaching of the 15th Amendment, which ensured that all citizens of the United States had the right to vote "shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." Even the word "servitude" would violate the censorship law Cruz wants to enact. Critics wondered how educators would be able to teach about the three-fifths compromise under Cruz's law. **** The legislation goes back to the manufactured crisis created by a right-wing think tank to create a culture war issue involving people of color and the teaching of slavery. Many on the right feel defensive about their children learning that white people enslaved people of color and being told that it was morally wrong.www.rawstory.com/ted-cruz-constitution-censorship-bill/The piece also says that the bill would likely never be brought up, but Cruz will use it for major fund raising. This is really important. While @missjen may have felt my list above was uncharitable, it was absolutely accurate in terms of what some Christians are trying to do. There’s a bait and switch happening here - they’re using the term CRT to describe what they’re trying to ban, but proposed bills ban the teaching of specific things that are simply true American history.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 28, 2021 13:47:39 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. I don't hold to CRT. Before I'll explain why, I will also say that I do believe That this country was built on stolen land That institutional racism exists and has existed since our inception That the judicial system unfairly favors white people That white people have been advantaged in many forms I don't believe in American Exceptionalism I don't believe we were or are a Christian nation. I don't believe in white washing our history and I work hard to make sure I don't actively participate in doing so. And I really don't believe the things the people who spoke for me on this thread said I do. Where I diverge from CRT is here: I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God and to treat any person badly is wrong because you're treating an image bearer badly, rather than thinking it's wrong because the person is of another skin color and that skin color has been or is oppressed. Both ideas say racism is wrong. I diverge on WHY it's wrong. I also will not think of whole people groups in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Thinking ill of an entire group of people based on something they can't control, such as their skin color or who their ancestors were or what they did is the very definition of prejudice. That's not to say I don't recognize oppression, or acknowledge its part in our past or present, or even acknowledge that it has and does exist in systems, but I will not categorize human beings that way. I will not say "You're an oppressor because you're white, despite the lack of any evidence that you've ever intentionally oppressed anyone." My neighbors are a White European Husband and his Mexican wife. They have two black daughters. CRT applied to social relationships says I have to think of him as oppressing his wife and daughters simply because he's European white and they're not. I will not think of him that way because there's simply no evidence that it's true. But CRT says it must be. The theory is supposed to hold more validity than his actual actions. I also believe that each person answers for his or her own sins, not the sins of his ancestors. I'm only a third generation immigrant, my family coming from Germany and Austria in the early 20th century. I feel no more personal responsibility for slavery than I do the Holocaust. I think it's possible to say those things are horrific, without feeling I have to have personal guilt for them. I believe that's a burden of shame that's being hung on people for things their ancestors may or may not have done (in my case, they didn't). I believe people are responsible for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. Each individual IS responsible for righting wrongs that still exist and are in their power to correct, including those things that may have been set in motion by generations before, and I believe institutions need to practice repentance and change for actions of their past, but a person on an individual level is not guilty for something he did not do. Lastly, I also think it's racist to say that white people will only end racism when it benefits them. That goes back to judging poorly an entire group of people based on something out of their control. I think it's uncharitable to characterize people that way, and it is prejudiced. But, I think it's possible to diverge from CRT on those fundamental philosophies, and still agree on many of the same practical points, such as those I mentioned earlier. I agree with much of what CRT teaches about our past and present in terms of our history, our institutions, racial relations, etc. However, why it's wrong and what we do with where we are now is where I diverge. I agree with a lot of this, but I am still confused on some points of the conversation that people are having. First, my understanding is that actual CRT is taught in college, not K-12 schools. You seem to think it is important for people to understand the history of our country, so I am curious how you see that being taught in K-12 schools. Conservatives seem to have latched on to the idea that any teaching about racism in schools is wrong because it will make (primarily white) kids uncomfortable and will feel bad about themselves. But isn't there a middle ground between actively making people feel guilty (is that even as much a part of CRT as people think it is? Or is the guilt and feeling bad just part of knowing that history and necessary for growth? Does that make sense?) and ignoring it altogether? As the mom of biracial children, I don't want my kids to be made to feel oppressed, either. Or for the divisions that white parents seem to think are inevitable to happen if CRT or racism is talked about in school. My husband and I got into an argument about this the other day. He seems to be of the mindset that it is better to ignore and move on than to "stir the pot" with the hopes that it will help to increase equality for all. He won't talk about it too much because he doesn't like talking "politics" with me, but his point of view got me wondering what other Black people think about this topic? All we are hearing are the opinions from White people--and they are the ones legislating. I think we need to have more diversity in the voices that we are hearing and who is making the decisions. I would also recommend that everyone interested in this topic read Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. That book helped me have a better understanding of not just the history of slavery but also the other forms of oppression in this country that white people are still benefiting from today. I do think that there has been movement made in this area, but I worry that we are going backwards now. @missjen that book may help you understand the statement that White people wont end racism until it benefits them.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 14:25:41 GMT
"What is Pat Robertson's talking out of his ass again, Alex" " “What is it?” Robertson said. “That the people of color have been oppressed by the white people, and that white people begin to be racist by the time they’re 2 or 3 months old, and that therefore the people of color have to rise up and overtake their oppressors. And then, having gotten the whip handle — if I can use the term — then to instruct their white neighbors how to behave. Now, that’s critical race theory.” “This is the way the communists take over; they try to destroy the children,” he added. “It is a monstrous evil. And you hear, ‘Oh, critical race theory, that’s OK.’ No, it’s not. [You don’t] want to have your children in the third grade indoctrinated into a hate group so that he’ll wind up hating people or hating himself. And so the white people are supposed to feel guilty, and they’re supposed to have white guilt, and the people of color are supposed to cleanse them of that guilt by taking over. It is a monstrous evil.”" www.rightwingwatch.org/post/pat-robertson-says-critical-race-theory-is-a-monstrous-evil/I know Pat wouldn't outright lie, cuz that's in the special Big 10 list of no-nos, right Pat? So it must be that he's just stupid beyond belief.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 28, 2021 16:56:41 GMT
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's likely that none of us participating in this thread have studied critical race theory. Unless you're a lawyer or a sociologist, it is highly unlikely you've read and engaged with the various texts on the subject. (Reading one book does not make you an expert!) I've read bell hooks, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. I've read some Kimberlé Crenshaw essays, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. So, my concern is that what I'm reading here, especially from folks who "oppose" the tenets of critical race theory, is based on someone else's uninformed opinions, not on the actual sources or work of the scholars themselves. In terms of what is taught in schools, teaching about slavery, teaching about Jim Crow, teaching about redlining, bringing light to the fact that these things happened (and are still happening) in our country in various ways is not teaching that white people are inherently bad. It's teaching truth. What should concern us all greatly is the passing of legislation banning the teaching of actual history in order to maintain a whitewashed curriculum. That is what should concern all of us - especially conservatives who supposedly want LESS government regulation. Because that smells like fascism to me. A recent op-ed in Education Week is a great explanation of what's going on: www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-juneteenth-meets-anti-critical-race-theory-laws-where-do-teachers-go-from-here/2021/06And ends with: "The point of these laws is to scare teachers away from talking about hard history. The people passing these laws know that K-12 teachers aren’t teaching kids about critical race theory. Those that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo do not want students to know the truth."
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 17:12:54 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. I don't hold to CRT. Before I'll explain why, I will also say that I do believe That this country was built on stolen land That institutional racism exists and has existed since our inception That the judicial system unfairly favors white people That white people have been advantaged in many forms I don't believe in American Exceptionalism I don't believe we were or are a Christian nation. I don't believe in white washing our history and I work hard to make sure I don't actively participate in doing so. And I really don't believe the things the people who spoke for me on this thread said I do. Where I diverge from CRT is here: I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God and to treat any person badly is wrong because you're treating an image bearer badly, rather than thinking it's wrong because the person is of another skin color and that skin color has been or is oppressed. Both ideas say racism is wrong. I diverge on WHY it's wrong. I also will not think of whole people groups in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Thinking ill of an entire group of people based on something they can't control, such as their skin color or who their ancestors were or what they did is the very definition of prejudice. That's not to say I don't recognize oppression, or acknowledge its part in our past or present, or even acknowledge that it has and does exist in systems, but I will not categorize human beings that way. I will not say "You're an oppressor because you're white, despite the lack of any evidence that you've ever intentionally oppressed anyone." My neighbors are a White European Husband and his Mexican wife. They have two black daughters. CRT applied to social relationships says I have to think of him as oppressing his wife and daughters simply because he's European white and they're not. I will not think of him that way because there's simply no evidence that it's true. But CRT says it must be. The theory is supposed to hold more validity than his actual actions. I also believe that each person answers for his or her own sins, not the sins of his ancestors. I'm only a third generation immigrant, my family coming from Germany and Austria in the early 20th century. I feel no more personal responsibility for slavery than I do the Holocaust. I think it's possible to say those things are horrific, without feeling I have to have personal guilt for them. I believe that's a burden of shame that's being hung on people for things their ancestors may or may not have done (in my case, they didn't). I believe people are responsible for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. Each individual IS responsible for righting wrongs that still exist and are in their power to correct, including those things that may have been set in motion by generations before, and I believe institutions need to practice repentance and change for actions of their past, but a person on an individual level is not guilty for something he did not do. Lastly, I also think it's racist to say that white people will only end racism when it benefits them. That goes back to judging poorly an entire group of people based on something out of their control. I think it's uncharitable to characterize people that way, and it is prejudiced. But, I think it's possible to diverge from CRT on those fundamental philosophies, and still agree on many of the same practical points, such as those I mentioned earlier. I agree with much of what CRT teaches about our past and present in terms of our history, our institutions, racial relations, etc. However, why it's wrong and what we do with where we are now is where I diverge. I agree with a lot of this, but I am still confused on some points of the conversation that people are having. First, my understanding is that actual CRT is taught in college, not K-12 schools. You seem to think it is important for people to understand the history of our country, so I am curious how you see that being taught in K-12 schools. Conservatives seem to have latched on to the idea that any teaching about racism in schools is wrong because it will make (primarily white) kids uncomfortable and will feel bad about themselves. But isn't there a middle ground between actively making people feel guilty (is that even as much a part of CRT as people think it is? Or is the guilt and feeling bad just part of knowing that history and necessary for growth? Does that make sense?) and ignoring it altogether? I can't say that I can answer your questions. I homeschool my children and am not engaged in the public school system. I don't think our history should be ignored
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 17:15:21 GMT
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's likely that none of us participating in this thread have studied critical race theory. Unless you're a lawyer or a sociologist, it is highly unlikely you've read and engaged with the various texts on the subject. (Reading one book does not make you an expert!) I've read bell hooks, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. I've read some Kimberlé Crenshaw essays, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. So, my concern is that what I'm reading here, especially from folks who "oppose" the tenets of critical race theory, is based on someone else's uninformed opinions, not on the actual sources or work of the scholars themselves. In terms of what is taught in schools, teaching about slavery, teaching about Jim Crow, teaching about redlining, bringing light to the fact that these things happened (and are still happening) in our country in various ways is not teaching that white people are inherently bad. It's teaching truth. What should concern us all greatly is the passing of legislation banning the teaching of actual history in order to maintain a whitewashed curriculum. That is what should concern all of us - especially conservatives who supposedly want LESS government regulation. Because that smells like fascism to me. A recent op-ed in Education Week is a great explanation of what's going on: www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-juneteenth-meets-anti-critical-race-theory-laws-where-do-teachers-go-from-here/2021/06And ends with: "The point of these laws is to scare teachers away from talking about hard history. The people passing these laws know that K-12 teachers aren’t teaching kids about critical race theory. Those that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo do not want students to know the truth."You're right, none of us are experts or scholars on the subject. My opinions and understanding come from some reading, and a meeting I had with a 20 year CRT activist that I went to specifically to try to better understand. But I have not done a scholarly study on primary texts. But if this is supposed to be influencing our social systems, there has to be some accessible level of understanding of it. If it can't be understood, it probably isn't food for the masses.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 28, 2021 17:29:53 GMT
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's likely that none of us participating in this thread have studied critical race theory. Unless you're a lawyer or a sociologist, it is highly unlikely you've read and engaged with the various texts on the subject. (Reading one book does not make you an expert!) I've read bell hooks, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. I've read some Kimberlé Crenshaw essays, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. So, my concern is that what I'm reading here, especially from folks who "oppose" the tenets of critical race theory, is based on someone else's uninformed opinions, not on the actual sources or work of the scholars themselves. In terms of what is taught in schools, teaching about slavery, teaching about Jim Crow, teaching about redlining, bringing light to the fact that these things happened (and are still happening) in our country in various ways is not teaching that white people are inherently bad. It's teaching truth. What should concern us all greatly is the passing of legislation banning the teaching of actual history in order to maintain a whitewashed curriculum. That is what should concern all of us - especially conservatives who supposedly want LESS government regulation. Because that smells like fascism to me. A recent op-ed in Education Week is a great explanation of what's going on: www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-juneteenth-meets-anti-critical-race-theory-laws-where-do-teachers-go-from-here/2021/06And ends with: "The point of these laws is to scare teachers away from talking about hard history. The people passing these laws know that K-12 teachers aren’t teaching kids about critical race theory. Those that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo do not want students to know the truth."You're right, none of us are experts or scholars on the subject. My opinions and understanding come from some reading, and a meeting I had with a 20 year CRT activist that I went to specifically to try to better understand. But I have not done a scholarly study on primary texts. But if this is supposed to be influencing our social systems, there has to be some accessible level of understanding of it. If it can't be understood, it probably isn't food for the masses. It's commendable that you engaged with that level of research, and I hope more folks do that. I would love to know the activist you spoke with and if they're open to conversations with educators, because I think many of us would appreciate perspectives from people in the work. (Please DM me if you're uncomfortable sharing that info in the thread for any reason!) I'm still struggling with the idea of flatly opposing a theoretical framework for studying the law and society, and one that has fluidity and disagreement even among its own scholars. In continuing to read up on it, I came across a piece on the American Bar Association's site that outlines four tenets of critical race theory that are generally agreed upon by its scholars, and I think many of us would have a hard time disregarding the truth or value in these ideas: Recognition that race is not biologically real but is socially constructed and socially significant. It recognizes that science (as demonstrated in the Human Genome Project) refutes the idea of biological racial differences. According to scholars Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic, race is the product of social thought and is not connected to biological reality.
Acknowledgement that racism is a normal feature of society and is embedded within systems and institutions, like the legal system, that replicate racial inequality. This dismisses the idea that racist incidents are aberrations but instead are manifestations of structural and systemic racism.
Rejection of popular understandings about racism, such as arguments that confine racism to a few “bad apples.” CRT recognizes that racism is codified in law, embedded in structures, and woven into public policy. CRT rejects claims of meritocracy or “colorblindness.” CRT recognizes that it is the systemic nature of racism that bears primary responsibility for reproducing racial inequality.
Recognition of the relevance of people’s everyday lives to scholarship. This includes embracing the lived experiences of people of color, including those preserved through storytelling, and rejecting deficit-informed research that excludes the epistemologies of people of color.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 28, 2021 18:14:12 GMT
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's likely that none of us participating in this thread have studied critical race theory. Unless you're a lawyer or a sociologist, it is highly unlikely you've read and engaged with the various texts on the subject. (Reading one book does not make you an expert!) I've read bell hooks, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. I've read some Kimberlé Crenshaw essays, but I'm not an expert on critical race theory. So, my concern is that what I'm reading here, especially from folks who "oppose" the tenets of critical race theory, is based on someone else's uninformed opinions, not on the actual sources or work of the scholars themselves. In terms of what is taught in schools, teaching about slavery, teaching about Jim Crow, teaching about redlining, bringing light to the fact that these things happened (and are still happening) in our country in various ways is not teaching that white people are inherently bad. It's teaching truth. What should concern us all greatly is the passing of legislation banning the teaching of actual history in order to maintain a whitewashed curriculum. That is what should concern all of us - especially conservatives who supposedly want LESS government regulation. Because that smells like fascism to me. A recent op-ed in Education Week is a great explanation of what's going on: www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/opinion-juneteenth-meets-anti-critical-race-theory-laws-where-do-teachers-go-from-here/2021/06And ends with: "The point of these laws is to scare teachers away from talking about hard history. The people passing these laws know that K-12 teachers aren’t teaching kids about critical race theory. Those that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo do not want students to know the truth."You're right, none of us are experts or scholars on the subject. My opinions and understanding come from some reading, and a meeting I had with a 20 year CRT activist that I went to specifically to try to better understand. But I have not done a scholarly study on primary texts. But if this is supposed to be influencing our social systems, there has to be some accessible level of understanding of it. If it can't be understood, it probably isn't food for the masses. Was it meant to be for the masses? It seems to me that the right has latched onto this issue because it gets people riled up. They don’t even fully understand what CRT is or isn’t yet are now experts who are convening in mobs at school board meetings across the county because tucker Carlson and Fox News (and their Fox News loving friends) tell them they should be scared and upset. But as posted above, the real consequence is that people are more divided and history classes will be even more whitewashed. And for what? Was there even any real threat the crt or anything similar was going to be taught in K-12 schools?
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 28, 2021 18:25:22 GMT
You're right, none of us are experts or scholars on the subject. My opinions and understanding come from some reading, and a meeting I had with a 20 year CRT activist that I went to specifically to try to better understand. But I have not done a scholarly study on primary texts. But if this is supposed to be influencing our social systems, there has to be some accessible level of understanding of it. If it can't be understood, it probably isn't food for the masses. Was it meant to be for the masses? It seems to me that the right has latched onto this issue because it gets people riled up. They don’t even fully understand what CRT is or isn’t yet are now experts who are convening in mobs at school board meetings across the county because tucker Carlson and Fox News (and their Fox News loving friends) tell them they should be scared and upset. But as posted above, the real consequence is that people are more divided and history classes will be even more whitewashed. And for what? Was there even any real threat the crt or anything similar was going to be taught in K-12 schools? I think it was a backlash against the diversity and inclusion efforts being made in schools across the country, and labeling it "Critical Race Theory" in order to create a scary brand name for it was not only intentional, but convenient for the dissemination of disinformation. Make no mistake that it's intentional disinformation designed to rile folks up in order to take greater control of (and with an end goal of dismantling entirely) public education so that it may be privatized and monetized.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 28, 2021 20:20:24 GMT
All we are hearing are the opinions from White people--and they are the ones legislating. I think we need to have more diversity in the voices that we are hearing and who is making the decisions. To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie?
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jun 28, 2021 21:12:08 GMT
It is white parents being riled up by the out of control situation in the Congress, Senate and House, in DC. Don't forget FOX and OAN. They do not want their children taught that white people had black slaves, even though it is an ABSOLUTE FACT, to talk about it will hurt their feelings. But we know what they do with facts. They call them "Alternative facts."
CRT is not/has not been taught in K-12 period! (Remember Giulani's "truth is not truth") That's what GOP is still promoting, only their facts and their truth. Not THE truth.
I have been stewing about this all day trying to figure out how to say it the right way.. seems I'm still getting it all right yet.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jun 28, 2021 21:24:47 GMT
All we are hearing are the opinions from White people--and they are the ones legislating. I think we need to have more diversity in the voices that we are hearing and who is making the decisions. To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie? I’m not sure. When someone posted a thread about people being loud at school board meetings, I had no idea it was as big of an issue last Fox and Facebook as it is. The other day, there was an article in our local paper about a group of parents who attended the school board meeting because they are upset about a recent equity audit and it sounds like they are bringing up the same issues as what is happening elsewhere. I’ve reached out to one parent that is in charge of a Facebook group (which now has about 650 members) who are against the equity plan (even though I don’t think they really know what that entails). She said that they “aren’t racist and don’t condone racism but they believe the equity firm that the district used believes in ideas similar to Critical Race Theorists like Ibram Kindi, who propose discrimination if it makes the oppressed feel better.” She said that in another district having an equity officer caused people to leave the district because it led to further racial divides. When i heard about the group , I mentioned it to my Dh. He said he is in the group. Our discussion stemmed from there.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 28, 2021 22:36:36 GMT
All we are hearing are the opinions from White people--and they are the ones legislating. I think we need to have more diversity in the voices that we are hearing and who is making the decisions. To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie? It appears as though that may be the case, with those same parents angry about vaccination efforts and masking. This is what I'm seeing locally. It began with "Get back in schools/Open Schools" and continues with anti-vax, anti-mask, and anti-CRT rhetoric online and in school board meeting public participation.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 28, 2021 23:15:34 GMT
To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie? I’m not sure. When someone posted a thread about people being loud at school board meetings, I had no idea it was as big of an issue last Fox and Facebook as it is. The other day, there was an article in our local paper about a group of parents who attended the school board meeting because they are upset about a recent equity audit and it sounds like they are bringing up the same issues as what is happening elsewhere. I’ve reached out to one parent that is in charge of a Facebook group (which now has about 650 members) who are against the equity plan (even though I don’t think they really know what that entails). She said that they “aren’t racist and don’t condone racism but they believe the equity firm that the district used believes in ideas similar to Critical Race Theorists like Ibram Kindi, who propose discrimination if it makes the oppressed feel better.” She said that in another district having an equity officer caused people to leave the district because it led to further racial divides. When i heard about the group , I mentioned it to my Dh. He said he is in the group. Our discussion stemmed from there. I don’t know what to say. I function and interact every day in the real world, not the Twitter world and not the Facebook world, conversing with a lot of black people, other minorities, and white people. Nobody seems to be perturbed. Everybody just seems to be happy we’re back to normal for the most part after over a year of COVID. Truly. In fact, no one is even talking about it. I doubt they’re even aware of it! This brouhaha is actually a head-scratcher for me. This reminded me of the mass panic caused by Orson Welles’ radio broadcast of the fictional War of the Worlds. Masses actually believed we were being invaded by Martians. Like I said, CRT is a complex legal theory that’s never even been tested and sufficiently peer-reviewed, and that’s all it is – a theory. Someone named Christopher Rufo started this lie about gov’t employees and schoolchildren being indoctrinated with CRT, and aided by Fox, it has become this full-blown hysterical squabble. This whole thing is a fabrication. There is no “woke” mob using children as pawns in some leftist experiment. White children are not being taught to hate themselves and black children are not being taught to regard themselves as victims. There are many teachers on this message board so I would imagine if this was indeed being taught in their schools they would have already said so. When schoolchildren are taught in history or social studies about the actual causes of the Civil War, the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement, diversity, slavery, etc, that’s just what it is—history and social studies, not CRT. When employees attend diversity training and race sensitivity classes or seminars, that’s all they are—diversity training, not CRT. I don’t know if this will help at all, but maybe show this to DH: How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict Over Critical Race Theory
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Post by hookturnian on Jun 29, 2021 0:37:45 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. South African schoolchildren start formally learning about Apartheid in Grade 4, so 9 or 10 years old. Given that apartheid only ended in the 90s, they are learning about stuff that happened in their parents' lifetime. I'm not sure if it's part of the curriculum, but my niece's teacher told the children where the racial boundaries were in their town, which areas were whites-only, etc. They learn about the struggle for freedom, and prominent anti-apartheid activists, many of them still living. They learn about Nelson Mandela. When I was at school Mandela was still banned and it was illegal to have a picture or voice recording of him. (They also learn about Rosa Parkes). When I was at school, South African history started in 1652, when the Dutch settled in the Cape. We learned about various waves of white settlement, the Great Trek, and the Anglo-Boer Wars, in other words, white history. And wars with the locals, of course, who were always portrayed as superstitious savages. There was a little more 'respect' given to Shaka, probably because he dealt them a few defeats even though they had rifles and his army had spears. The current generation learns about African civilisation prior to the arrival of white people, such as Great Zimbabwe, Mapungubwe, Djenne, etc. As they grow older they obviously delve deeper into the subject, but this is what 9-12 year olds learn. South Africa has also had to contend with the role of the church in apartheid. The Dutch Reformed Church was a pillar of the Apartheid regime. It taught apartheid and white supremacy from the pulpit every Sunday morning.
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seaexplore
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,878
Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 29, 2021 0:48:38 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. South African schoolchildren start formally learning about Apartheid in Grade 4, so 9 or 10 years old. Given that apartheid only ended in the 90s, they are learning about stuff that happened in their parents' lifetime. I'm not sure if it's part of the curriculum, but my niece's teacher told the children where the racial boundaries were in their town, which areas were whites-only, etc. They learn about the struggle for freedom, and prominent anti-apartheid activists, many of them still living. They learn about Nelson Mandela. When I was at school Mandela was still banned and it was illegal to have a picture or voice recording of him. (They also learn about Rosa Parkes). When I was at school, South African history started in 1652, when the Dutch settled in the Cape. We learned about various waves of white settlement, the Great Trek, and the Anglo-Boer Wars, in other words, white history. And wars with the locals, of course, who were always portrayed as superstitious savages. There was a little more 'respect' given to Shaka, probably because he dealt them a few defeats even though they had rifles and his army had spears. The current generation learns about African civilisation prior to the arrival of white people, such as Great Zimbabwe, Mapungubwe, Djenne, etc. As they grow older they obviously delve deeper into the subject, but this is what 9-12 year olds learn. South Africa has also had to contend with the role of the church in apartheid. The Dutch Reformed Church was a pillar of the Apartheid regime. It taught apartheid and white supremacy from the pulpit every Sunday morning. Thank you for sharing. I always feel like the US is just some crazy messed up place with that we do/think/teach in regards to history. It helps to know how other countries go about teaching their history.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jun 30, 2021 0:04:29 GMT
To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie? I’m not sure. When someone posted a thread about people being loud at school board meetings, I had no idea it was as big of an issue last Fox and Facebook as it is. The other day, there was an article in our local paper about a group of parents who attended the school board meeting because they are upset about a recent equity audit and it sounds like they are bringing up the same issues as what is happening elsewhere. I’ve reached out to one parent that is in charge of a Facebook group (which now has about 650 members) who are against the equity plan (even though I don’t think they really know what that entails). She said that they “aren’t racist and don’t condone racism but they believe the equity firm that the district used believes in ideas similar to Critical Race Theorists like Ibram Kindi, who propose discrimination if it makes the oppressed feel better.” She said that in another district having an equity officer caused people to leave the district because it led to further racial divides. When i heard about the group , I mentioned it to my Dh. He said he is in the group. Our discussion stemmed from there. At our board meeting last night, a parent (also anti-vax and anti-mask) literally got up and said that "equity and CRT are the same thing" and she opposes it. I hate it here.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jun 30, 2021 16:27:44 GMT
I have no knowledge of this person... I found it a reasonable read, not too "legal" talking. Opinion | I've Been a Critical Race Theorist for 30 Years. Our Opponents Are Just Proving Our Point For Us. Seemingly overnight, my obscure legal specialty became a national lightning rod. What would CRT say about that? Gary Peller is teaches constitutional law at Georgetown University Law Center. He is a contributor to and co-editor of Critical Race Theory: The Key Writings that Formed the Movement. As a law professor closely associated with the critical race theory movement for more than 30 years, I am astonished. Most academic work never gets noticed at all, and ours is being publicly vilified, even banned. While we wrote footnotes and taught our classes, did our ideas become the new orthodoxy in American society and the foundation of K-12 education, as our critics claim. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/30/critical-race-theory-lightning-rod-opinion-497046
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Post by Merge on Jun 30, 2021 16:39:32 GMT
Tweet from a far-right lobbyist group in Texas, since deleted, but the damage is done. This is the crap white parents are reading as “truth” and then using as ammo when they storm the school board meeting.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 17:27:10 GMT
America. One step forward. .75 to 1.5 steps back.
Always.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 24, 2024 13:33:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 3:24:34 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. ..removed the rest for space savingNot how I interpreted the original OP which clearly said: I am open to all views.I read her post 3 times and didn't see at all where she asked for only Christians to respond.
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Post by pixiechick on Jul 14, 2021 4:28:00 GMT
I am a person of faith, but I do not identify as a Christian. I am not 100% what I believe at this point. I am struggling to understand how so many people who identify as Christians in my state are against teaching history in a truthful and open way. Here are my thoughts… Christians should stand for truth. Christians should love and value all people. Christians should stand for acceptance and understanding. Please help me understand and make sense of this. I am really struggling to see the opposing view in a non-political way. I am open to all views and hope this conversation does not lead to further division. I truly want to see both sides. What I'm seeing is people are objecting to this type of thing happening in schools and the workplace: And this letter from a teacher: Dear Joe (copies to Head of School, Board Trustees, & English Department Colleagues), I became a teacher at Dwight-Englewood because, as a parent, I loved how the school both nurtured and challenged my own children. Today, I am resigning from a job I love because D-E has changed in ways that undermine its mission and prevent me from holding true to my conscience as an educator. I believe that D-E is failing our students. Over the past few years, the school has embraced an ideology that is damaging to our students’ intellectual and emotional growth and destroying any chance at creating a true community among our diverse population. I reject the hostile culture of conformity and fear that has taken hold of our school. The school’s ideology requires students to see themselves not as individuals, but as representatives of a group, forcing them to adopt the status of privilege or victimhood. They must locate themselves within the oppressor or oppressed group, or some intersectional middle where they must reckon with being part-oppressor and part-victim. This theory of power hierarchies is only one way of seeing the world, and yet it pervades D-E as the singular way of seeing the world. As a result, students arrive in my classroom accepting this theory as fact: People born with less melanin in their skin are oppressors, and people born with more melanin in their skin are oppressed. Men are oppressors, women are oppressed, and so on. This is the dominant and divisive ideology that is guiding our adolescent students. In my classroom, I see up close how this orthodoxy hinders students’ ability to read, write, and think. I teach students who recoil from a poem because it was written by a man. I teach students who approach texts in search of the oppressor. I teach students who see inequities in texts that have nothing to do with power. Students have internalized the message that this is the way we read and think about the world, and as a result, they fixate on power and group identity. This fixation has stunted their ability to observe and engage with the full fabric of human experience in our literature. In my professional opinion, the school is failing to encourage healthy habits of mind, essential for growth, such as intellectual curiosity, humility, honesty, reason, and the capacity to question ideas and consider multiple perspectives. In our school, the opportunity to hear competing ideas is practically non-existent. How can students, who accept a single ideology as fact, learn to practice intellectual curiosity or humility or consider a competing idea they’ve never encountered? How can students develop higher order thinking if they are limited to seeing the world only through the lens of group identity and power? Sadly, the school is leading many to become true believers and outspoken purveyors of a regressive and illiberal orthodoxy. Understandably, these students have found comfort in their moral certainty, and so they have become rigid and closed-minded, unable or unwilling to consider alternative perspectives. These young students have no idea that the school has placed ideological blinders on them. Of course, not all students are true believers. Many pretend to agree because of pressure to conform. I’ve heard from students who want to ask a question but stop for fear of offending someone. I have heard from students who don’t participate in discussions for fear of being ostracized. One student did not want to develop her personal essay — about an experience she had in another country — for fear that it might mean that she was, without even realizing it, racist. In her fear, she actually stopped herself from thinking. This is the very definition of self-censorship. I care deeply about our students and our school, and so over the years, I have tried to introduce positive and constructive alternative views. My efforts have fallen on deaf ears. In 2019, I shared with you my negative experiences among hostile and doctrinaire colleagues. You expressed dismay, but I did not hear any follow up from you or other administrators. Since then, the stifling conformity has only intensified. Last fall, two administrators informed faculty that certain viewpoints simply would not be tolerated during our new “race explicit” conversations with our new “anti-racist” work. They said that no one would be allowed to question the orthodoxy regarding “systemic racism.” The message was clear, and the faculty went silent in response. The reality is that fear pervades the faculty. On at least two separate occasions in 2017 and 2018, our Head of School, standing at the front of Hajjar Auditorium, told the entire faculty that he would fire us all if he could so that he could replace us all with people of color. This year, administrators continue to assert D-E’s policy that we are hiring “for diversity.” D-E has become a workplace that is hostile toward educators based solely on their immutable traits. During a recent faculty meeting, teachers were segregated by skin color. Teachers who had light skin were placed into a “white caucus” group and asked to “remember” that we are “White” and “to take responsibility for [our] power and privilege.” D-E’s racial segregation of educators, aimed at leading us to rethink of ourselves as oppressors, was regressive and demeaning to us as individuals with our own moral compass and human agency. Will the school force racial segregation on our students next? I reject D-E’s essentialist, racialist thinking about myself, my colleagues, and my students. As a humanist educator, I strive to create an inclusive classroom by embracing the dignity and unique personality of each and every student; I want to empower all students with the skills and habits of mind that they need to fulfill their potential as learners and human beings. Neither the color of my skin nor the “group identity” assigned to me by D-E dictates my humanist beliefs or my work as an educator. Being told that it does is offensive and wrong, and it violates my dignity as a human being. My conscience does not have a color. D-E claims that we teach students how to think, not what to think. But sadly, that is just no longer true. I hope administrators and board members awaken in time to prevent this misguided and absolutist ideology from hollowing out D-E, as it has already hollowed out so many other institutions. ------ These are the type of issues that some parents and teachers are objecting to and it is being dismissed here as simply having the name wrong and only objecting to being taught the details of racism in history. I hope this gives you another perspective and you weigh it along with what ever else other people are saying about it.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 14, 2021 13:11:43 GMT
Deplorable to say the least.
During a recent faculty meeting, teachers were segregated by skin color. Teachers who had light skin were placed into a “white caucus” group and asked to “remember” that we are “White” and “to take responsibility for [our] power and privilege.” D-E’s racial segregation of educators, aimed at leading us to rethink of ourselves as oppressors, was regressive and demeaning to us as individuals with our own moral compass and human agency. Will the school force racial segregation on our students next?
That any educator thinks this is appropriate is disgusting. They, in fact, should be removed and never be allowed near students, or school.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 14, 2021 13:39:37 GMT
All we are hearing are the opinions from White people--and they are the ones legislating. I think we need to have more diversity in the voices that we are hearing and who is making the decisions. To be frank with you, neither I nor any of my GFs (many of whom are black) including their spouses have even talked about this. We’ve had many get-togethers already since May and not a single person has brought it up. No one in my family and my circle is paying attention to this. Black parents I know aren’t even aware of this manufactured controversy. Could it be just white parents, in general, in certain districts becoming hysterical over this lie? I believe that this is another scare tactic to get the conservative base riled up. The people spinning this know that it is not being taught in schools. Many readers of this thread realize that conservatives are making a push in many parts of the country to control local school boards. Why? It seems obvious to me. *Some* conservatives want to gloss over our history and make it pretty. This Fresh Air interview is pretty interesting www.npr.org/2021/06/24/1009839021/uncovering-who-is-driving-the-fight-against-critical-race-theory-in-schools
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