TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
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Post by TankTop on Jun 27, 2021 12:37:07 GMT
I am a person of faith, but I do not identify as a Christian. I am not 100% what I believe at this point.
I am struggling to understand how so many people who identify as Christians in my state are against teaching history in a truthful and open way.
Here are my thoughts… Christians should stand for truth. Christians should love and value all people. Christians should stand for acceptance and understanding.
Please help me understand and make sense of this. I am really struggling to see the opposing view in a non-political way.
I am open to all views and hope this conversation does not lead to further division. I truly want to see both sides.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jun 27, 2021 12:44:53 GMT
I am not Christian, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but what makes you think that Christians, as a whole group of people, stand for those things?
There are many other faith/ religious groups, as well as LGBTQ+ people who would disagree with that, based on the history of how we've been treated.
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peabay
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jun 27, 2021 12:54:20 GMT
They're scared.
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Post by Merge on Jun 27, 2021 12:55:13 GMT
I am a person of faith, but I do not identify as a Christian. I am not 100% what I believe at this point. I am struggling to understand how so many people who identify as Christians in my state are against teaching history in a truthful and open way. Here are my thoughts… Christians should stand for truth. Christians should love and value all people. Christians should stand for acceptance and understanding. Please help me understand and make sense of this. I am really struggling to see the opposing view in a non-political way. I am open to all views and hope this conversation does not lead to further division. I truly want to see both sides. My understanding is that they believe that discussing things like inherent bias, systemic racism, and white privilege will lead white kids to feel badly about themselves and further racial divides. Many also don’t believe those things even exist. They also prefer a version of American history taught through the lens of American exceptionalism, leaning heavily on the idea that the Christian God led white Europeans to the Americas, and thus historical events like genocide and slavery are, while terrible, just the unfortunate collateral damage that came with building this country for God. Also those things are completely in the past and should have no bearing on race relations today. The big disconnect as I see it is that the cognitive dissonance between their belief that this country was founded by men who were led by God to do so, and the subsequence carnage and decades of unequal treatment that have resulted. Those two things don’t go together, so they have to justify the first belief by minimizing or ignoring the second reality (or in the worst case, arguing that their God meant for white people to have dominion over the “inferior” races). And of course all of that sets aside the fact that CRT is a complex discussion had among adult academics about the impact of our laws and systems on people of color, not the unvarnished teaching of American history and current events in K-12 schools.
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PLurker
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Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Jun 27, 2021 13:02:51 GMT
Some may think "ignore it and it will go away" and others think "ignore it and allow it to flourish".
"It" being racism and both those trains of thoughts suck. One being incorrect and naive (at best), the other just evil.
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 11:38:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2021 13:06:36 GMT
I'm probably not the one to give the answer you're looking for, but when I gave up on religion everything made sense to me... I didn't have to try and work out how the hypocrisy was justified. Even the excuse of man's misuse of 'free will' never made sense to me because I thought, well if God could snap his fingers to create the world, then why screw the free will concept up so badly. Once I gave up on religion I could release myself from the endless non-sensical illogic and just get on with living. To me, religion was just created to keep people in check. Once I accepted that, I no longer needed to worry about the lack of logic. Now I am free, I can be both a good person and a pain in the arse...and not worry about why. I just AM. So my answer to your question is Christians can be everything for and against their beliefs because they are simply just beliefs. They believe what they want to cherry pick from the bible. They hold another set of beliefs based on their upbringing. Some beliefs are passed on from movies, books, friends etc. Some beliefs are formed from their life experiences. They are simply beliefs and the ones in the bible are no more divine, important, or almighty than the beliefs non-christians hold. Take out the word Christian and just say humans should stand for truth, value all people etc etc. Christians don't have a monopoly on truth, value, acceptance, and understanding etc. Based on what I wrote at the start of my post, I believe it's illogical to expect any more of them than you would expect of everyone else. Obviously, goes without saying...those are my beliefs.
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Post by librarylady on Jun 27, 2021 13:49:54 GMT
They are scared of the unknown change that might happen. They are scared of losing power in our society.
I will confess that I felt guilty when I taught and was trying to discuss what had happened with the Jim Crow laws.not
Analyzing it all, I didn't feel guilty about slavery as I was far removed from it. But, Jim Crow era--I lived it. I felt bad about having unwittingly having participated in society's racism. When I became old enough to think "This is wrong" I tried to not participate. By that I mean that I welcomed people of color into my circle of friends etc.
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jun 27, 2021 14:13:14 GMT
People don't like change, especially when the status quo favors them.
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Post by mom2jnk on Jun 27, 2021 14:18:55 GMT
I am a person of faith, but I do not identify as a Christian. I am not 100% what I believe at this point. I am struggling to understand how so many people who identify as Christians in my state are against teaching history in a truthful and open way. Here are my thoughts… Christians should stand for truth. Christians should love and value all people. Christians should stand for acceptance and understanding. Please help me understand and make sense of this. I am really struggling to see the opposing view in a non-political way. I am open to all views and hope this conversation does not lead to further division. I truly want to see both sides. My understanding is that they believe that discussing things like inherent bias, systemic racism, and white privilege will lead white kids to feel badly about themselves and further racial divides. Many also don’t believe those things even exist. They also prefer a version of American history taught through the lens of American exceptionalism, leaning heavily on the idea that the Christian God led white Europeans to the Americas, and thus historical events like genocide and slavery are, while terrible, just the unfortunate collateral damage that came with building this country for God. Also those things are completely in the past and should have no bearing on race relations today. The big disconnect as I see it is that the cognitive dissonance between their belief that this country was founded by men who were led by God to do so, and the subsequence carnage and decades of unequal treatment that have resulted. Those two things don’t go together, so they have to justify the first belief by minimizing or ignoring the second reality (or in the worst case, arguing that their God meant for white people to have dominion over the “inferior” races). And of course all of that sets aside the fact that CRT is a complex discussion had among adult academics about the impact of our laws and systems on people of color, not the unvarnished teaching of American history and current events in K-12 schools. I think you understand it very well. The cognitive dissonance of holding their beliefs leads to attempts at rationalization by the leaders of church (going to hurt white children's feelings, "increase division with our colored brothers and sisters" Not my words here, something I just read) and confirmation bias in daily life (explosion of false media outlets, intentional spreading of lies, distrust, and fear). It's not logical, but it is sadly predictable.
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 27, 2021 14:22:10 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind.
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Post by catmom on Jun 27, 2021 14:33:09 GMT
My two cents, as someone who still believes in God but refuses to go to a church ever again. Some evangelicals have informed me I’m not a Christian because I don’t condemn gay marriage. Short answer: 1) because the patriarchy (and Christianity’s role in upholding it); 2) because as humans we sin and do terrible things and being Christian doesn’t exempt us from those behaviours any more than anyone else. For some reason we tell ourselves that because we are Christian we are therefore good or moral. But I would argue there is nothing in the Bible and certainly nothing in history to indicate Christians have any degree of moral superiority over anyone else. And the reality is, Christianity has long been a tool of oppression to keep people in power. The church doesn’t have a few bad apples, it’s rotten to the core. And until we face the two millennia of oppression and destruction we have caused, nothing will change. And sorry - I went on a tangent but in light of what is happening in Canada, it’s difficult for me to talk about Christians having any type of moral standing. Edited to add: TankTop I realize my tone was a bit more intense than I intended. None of my comments were directed at you, I'm just feeling a bit raw about Christianity and 'Christian values' right now.
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pyccku
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Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Jun 27, 2021 15:24:14 GMT
I am struggling to understand how so many people who identify as Christians in my state are against teaching history in a truthful and open way. Examining history means admitting that "your" people weren't always the good guys. Sometimes they were the baddies. Accepting that your ancestors made mistakes and did bad things means accepting the possibility that you are possibly doing bad things right now. How many people grew up with the assumption that it was OK to discriminate against someone because of their sexuality, gender, or race - because in many parts of the world, that was just the norm? Realizing that things that were the norm 100 years ago means realizing that things you might be doing right now may not be viewed as acceptable 100 years from now - and most people don't really want to admit that they make mistakes or are wrong in their thinking. It's always weird to me how whatever god these types of people worship ALWAYS seems to want the same things that they want. God never tells them "Hey, I want you to give up this thing and help others who are worse off than you" (well, actually Jesus did - but they tend to ignore that part because what he REALLY meant was the opposite). No, God tells them that they should be able to oppress others, collect money from the poor to use for their own personal wants, sleep with young attractive women, etc.
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lizacreates
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Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 27, 2021 15:34:01 GMT
I think it’s important enough to note that what you’re asking for is related only to the honest teaching of our history. That is NOT critical race theory. I say this only because it’s precisely this misunderstanding/misinformation that’s proliferating everywhere as evidenced by hordes of parents noisily demanding it not be taught to their children. This is not CRT.
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Post by mom on Jun 27, 2021 15:59:42 GMT
My two cents, as someone who still believes in God but refuses to go to a church ever again. Some evangelicals have informed me I’m not a Christian because I don’t condemn gay marriage.
Short answer: 1) because the patriarchy (and Christianity’s role in upholding it); 2) because as humans we sin and do terrible things and being Christian doesn’t exempt us from those behaviours any more than anyone else. For some reason we tell ourselves that because we are Christian we are therefore good or moral. But I would argue there is nothing in the Bible and certainly nothing in history to indicate Christians have any degree of moral superiority over anyone else. And the reality is, Christianity has long been a tool of oppression to keep people in power. The church doesn’t have a few bad apples, it’s rotten to the core. And until we face the two millennia of oppression and destruction we have caused, nothing will change. And sorry - I went on a tangent but in light of what is happening in Canada, it’s difficult for me to talk about Christians having any type of moral standing. You probably know this but I wanted to tell you in case you didnt: it doesn't matter what Evangelicals tell you. If you have invited Christ into your heart, then you are a Christian. You don't have to seek Evangelicals approval, subscribe to anything they teach, you can ignore them for all it matters.
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J u l e e
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Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
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Post by J u l e e on Jun 27, 2021 16:17:58 GMT
Many of us (I am a Jesus follower) really love the Old Testament where Christians conquered lands and people who did not worship the God of Abraham. And then they sacrificed bulls for their sins. Many seem to forget that Jesus came along and sacrificed himself and commanded us to humble ourselves, to not judge others, but to love people. All people. Period.
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sassyangel
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Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jun 27, 2021 16:30:16 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. I was. I was taught the unvarnished truth about white settlement, massacres of First Nation people, stolen generations, white Australia policy. It didn’t make me feel bad about being white, (although I certainly felt bad those things happened - shouldn’t I have?) but it made me understand and feel compassion. But I went to a private school, so maybe that’s why?
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sassyangel
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Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Jun 27, 2021 16:31:58 GMT
I think it’s important enough to note that what you’re asking for is related only to the honest teaching of our history. That is NOT critical race theory. I say this only because it’s precisely this misunderstanding/misinformation that’s proliferating everywhere as evidenced by hordes of parents noisily demanding it not be taught to their children. This is not CRT. Yes, there is a difference. I think it’s important to qualify this and not allow the waters to be muddied, by people deliberately muddying it with their own agendas.
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seaexplore
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 27, 2021 16:32:58 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. I was. I was taught the unvarnished truth about white settlement, massacres of First Nation people, stolen generations, white Australia policy. It didn’t make me feel bad about being white, (although I certainly felt bad those things happened - shouldn’t I have?) but it made me understand and feel compassion. But I went to a private school, so maybe that’s why? And that is how it SHOULD be taught. Just the facts. Start early, teach about ALL the events that have happened in the past, don't skip over "icky" feelings. I agree with the "didn't make me feel bad about being white"- I look at it as it happened in the past and I can do better now. I'm not GUILTY because of my heritage so I don't feel bad about my race. I didn't have a part in what happened but I think that if we are AWARE of it and try to NOT do things like what happened in the past, that's the important thing.
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TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
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Post by TankTop on Jun 27, 2021 17:27:48 GMT
Thank you so much for all of your thoughts. So many great things to think about.
I in no way intended to lump all Christians into one line of thinking. I should have clarified… some of the Christians I know and interact with.
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sueg
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Post by sueg on Jun 27, 2021 17:40:26 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. I currently live in Germany, though I am not German and didn't go to school here. From friends who have children in the public school system here, Germany teaches about the Holocaust, WWII and Germany's role in it and the events that lead to the war. It is quite common to see school groups at the Concentration Camp memorials in Germany - a trip to Dachau is almost compulsory for schools in our region (I live about an hour away). There are also many memorials and museums that tell the bad parts of the story. We have a 'Documentation Centre' here in Munich that addresses the rise of the Nazis, which began here. The City Museum here also addresses it, beginning with the comment 'it isn't something we are proud of, but we need to acknowledge our part in this horror'. The Docu Centers (they are in many cities) are all free to visit, and also are much visited by school groups.
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 27, 2021 17:57:23 GMT
Not a comment on CRT but do other countries (outside the US) teach about their "dark past" and the "bad/evils/whatever" they'd like to ignore and not bring to light to have discussed? The US certainly isn't the only country that has treated people poorly based on gender/race/religion/whatever. How are those other countries dealing with their history? Is it all taught or just what they think is acceptable to be taught? I know Canada is dealing with the reality of horrors in real time and it's terrible to witness but needs to be brought to light. Anyway- early morning ramblings from a non-caffeinated mind. I currently live in Germany, though I am not German and didn't go to school here. From friends who have children in the public school system here, Germany teaches about the Holocaust, WWII and Germany's role in it and the events that lead to the war. It is quite common to see school groups at the Concentration Camp memorials in Germany - a trip to Dachau is almost compulsory for schools in our region (I live about an hour away). There are also many memorials and museums that tell the bad parts of the story. We have a 'Documentation Centre' here in Munich that addresses the rise of the Nazis, which began here. The City Museum here also addresses it, beginning with the comment 'it isn't something we are proud of, but we need to acknowledge our part in this horror'. The Docu Centers (they are in many cities) are all free to visit, and also are much visited by school groups. I love this! I think that the gritty parts of history are important to be taught.
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Post by Merge on Jun 27, 2021 18:15:51 GMT
I think it’s important enough to note that what you’re asking for is related only to the honest teaching of our history. That is NOT critical race theory. I say this only because it’s precisely this misunderstanding/misinformation that’s proliferating everywhere as evidenced by hordes of parents noisily demanding it not be taught to their children. This is not CRT. Yes, there is a difference. I think it’s important to qualify this and not allow the waters to be muddied, by people deliberately muddying it with their own agendas. Agreed, but whatever name we want to put on it, it’s teaching the truth about American history they object to. The Texas bill doesn’t mention CRT to my knowledge - It just forbids the teaching of any history that might make one group feel guilty or ashamed, that one group has privilege that another does not, or that any American structures are inherently racist. They know exactly what they want to have banned - the fact that it’s not really CRT is kind of incidental to that.
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lizacreates
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Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 27, 2021 19:19:27 GMT
Yes, there is a difference. I think it’s important to qualify this and not allow the waters to be muddied, by people deliberately muddying it with their own agendas. Agreed, but whatever name we want to put on it, it’s teaching the truth about American history they object to. The Texas bill doesn’t mention CRT to my knowledge - It just forbids the teaching of any history that might make one group feel guilty or ashamed, that one group has privilege that another does not, or that any American structures are inherently racist. They know exactly what they want to have banned - the fact that it’s not really CRT is kind of incidental to that. And really the two goals—pride in your country’s achievements and restorative awareness of its failures—can be achieved simultaneously. It’s not a zero-sum game. Just because white children *might* learn the racial sins of our country does not mean their whiteness naturally makes them oppressors any more than black children’s blackness naturally makes them victims. I think it was Christopher Rufo who first started using it to characterize schools’ curricula, but once the falsehood caught on it’s been impossible to eradicate. This manufactured controversy is worrisome inasmuch as it’s based not on facts but on presumptions and conflations. CRT is only a theory in legal scholarship. It’s never been put through the academic rigors of testing and sufficient peer review, and there are legitimate arguments for pro and con and that’s why it has never reached a status of infallibility. As I mentioned on another thread, even black academia was split on this when it surfaced decades ago. It’s like I went to bed one night and woke the following morning and this was the new culture war. The next thing I knew Twitter and Facebook groups were being referenced in articles about it, and it spread like wildfire. This is a good illustration of why people should not rely on Twitter and Facebook to do their thinking for them.
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Post by catmom on Jun 28, 2021 2:06:12 GMT
My two cents, as someone who still believes in God but refuses to go to a church ever again. Some evangelicals have informed me I’m not a Christian because I don’t condemn gay marriage.
Short answer: 1) because the patriarchy (and Christianity’s role in upholding it); 2) because as humans we sin and do terrible things and being Christian doesn’t exempt us from those behaviours any more than anyone else. For some reason we tell ourselves that because we are Christian we are therefore good or moral. But I would argue there is nothing in the Bible and certainly nothing in history to indicate Christians have any degree of moral superiority over anyone else. And the reality is, Christianity has long been a tool of oppression to keep people in power. The church doesn’t have a few bad apples, it’s rotten to the core. And until we face the two millennia of oppression and destruction we have caused, nothing will change. And sorry - I went on a tangent but in light of what is happening in Canada, it’s difficult for me to talk about Christians having any type of moral standing. You probably know this but I wanted to tell you in case you didnt: it doesn't matter what Evangelicals tell you. If you have invited Christ into your heart, then you are a Christian. You don't have to seek Evangelicals approval, subscribe to anything they teach, you can ignore them for all it matters. Aww thanks. I've stopped listening to them, but its nice to hear anyway.
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Deleted
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Nov 24, 2024 11:38:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 2:19:42 GMT
It’s like I went to bed one night and woke the following morning and this was the new culture war. That's because the fundagelicals lost the culture war on LGBTQ+. The culture has moved on and they're stuck in the past. No fire-and-brimstoning is going to bring the majority of the culture back to hating/closeting the LGBTQ people in their lives/families. So, they had to find something else to hate. They still have abortion, but they seem to like to have two big baddies in the culture wars. It used to be abortion and LGBTQ. Now, it seems, it's abortion and CRT.
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Post by AussieMeg on Jun 28, 2021 3:07:53 GMT
I think it’s important enough to note that what you’re asking for is related only to the honest teaching of our history. That is NOT critical race theory. I say this only because it’s precisely this misunderstanding/misinformation that’s proliferating everywhere as evidenced by hordes of parents noisily demanding it not be taught to their children. This is not CRT. I am really struggling with my understanding (or lack thereof) regarding CRT. Someone provided a whole lot of links to what was supposedly the best explanation of it, but it really wasn't helpful to me. I have spent literally hours reading stuff about CRT but I still don't understand it well enough to debate it with anyone. I really need to find a "CRT for Dummies" site.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 3:19:57 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. I don't hold to CRT. Before I'll explain why, I will also say that I do believe That this country was built on stolen land That institutional racism exists and has existed since our inception That the judicial system unfairly favors white people That white people have been advantaged in many forms I don't believe in American Exceptionalism I don't believe we were or are a Christian nation. I don't believe in white washing our history and I work hard to make sure I don't actively participate in doing so. And I really don't believe the things the people who spoke for me on this thread said I do. Where I diverge from CRT is here: I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God and to treat any person badly is wrong because you're treating an image bearer badly, rather than thinking it's wrong because the person is of another skin color and that skin color has been or is oppressed. Both ideas say racism is wrong. I diverge on WHY it's wrong. I also will not think of whole people groups in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Thinking ill of an entire group of people based on something they can't control, such as their skin color or who their ancestors were or what they did is the very definition of prejudice. That's not to say I don't recognize oppression, or acknowledge its part in our past or present, or even acknowledge that it has and does exist in systems, but I will not categorize human beings that way. I will not say "You're an oppressor because you're white, despite the lack of any evidence that you've ever intentionally oppressed anyone." My neighbors are a White European Husband and his Mexican wife. They have two black daughters. CRT applied to social relationships says I have to think of him as oppressing his wife and daughters simply because he's European white and they're not. I will not think of him that way because there's simply no evidence that it's true. But CRT says it must be. The theory is supposed to hold more validity than his actual actions. I also believe that each person answers for his or her own sins, not the sins of his ancestors. I'm only a third generation immigrant, my family coming from Germany and Austria in the early 20th century. I feel no more personal responsibility for slavery than I do the Holocaust. I think it's possible to say those things are horrific, without feeling I have to have personal guilt for them. I believe that's a burden of shame that's being hung on people for things their ancestors may or may not have done (in my case, they didn't). I believe people are responsible for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. Each individual IS responsible for righting wrongs that still exist and are in their power to correct, including those things that may have been set in motion by generations before, and I believe institutions need to practice repentance and change for actions of their past, but a person on an individual level is not guilty for something he did not do. Lastly, I also think it's racist to say that white people will only end racism when it benefits them. That goes back to judging poorly an entire group of people based on something out of their control. I think it's uncharitable to characterize people that way, and it is prejudiced. But, I think it's possible to diverge from CRT on those fundamental philosophies, and still agree on many of the same practical points, such as those I mentioned earlier. I agree with much of what CRT teaches about our past and present in terms of our history, our institutions, racial relations, etc. However, why it's wrong and what we do with where we are now is where I diverge.
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seaexplore
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 28, 2021 3:32:20 GMT
There are so many uncharitable characterizations in this thread. You asked for the answer from a Christian, but most people who answered said they are not Christians. That's fine, but they don't speak for me. However, the general attitude makes me reluctant to participate. But, I know you TankTop to be interested in actual dialogue so I'm hoping I don't regret this. I don't hold to CRT. Before I'll explain why, I will also say that I do believe That this country was built on stolen land That institutional racism exists and has existed since our inception That the judicial system unfairly favors white people That white people have been advantaged in many forms I don't believe in American Exceptionalism I don't believe we were or are a Christian nation. I don't believe in white washing our history and I work hard to make sure I don't actively participate in doing so. And I really don't believe the things the people who spoke for me on this thread said I do. Where I diverge from CRT is here: I believe racism is wrong because each and every person is created in the image of God and to treat any person badly is wrong because you're treating an image bearer badly, rather than thinking it's wrong because the person is of another skin color and that skin color has been or is oppressed. Both ideas say racism is wrong. I diverge on WHY it's wrong. I also will not think of whole people groups in terms of oppressors and oppressed. Thinking ill of an entire group of people based on something they can't control, such as their skin color or who their ancestors were or what they did is the very definition of prejudice. That's not to say I don't recognize oppression, or acknowledge its part in our past or present, or even acknowledge that it has and does exist in systems, but I will not categorize human beings that way. I will not say "You're an oppressor because you're white, despite the lack of any evidence that you've ever intentionally oppressed anyone." My neighbors are a White European Husband and his Mexican wife. They have two black daughters. CRT says I have to think of him as oppressing his wife and daughters simply because he's European white and they're not. I will not think of him that way because there's simply no evidence that it's true. But CRT says it must be. The theory is supposed to hold more validity than his actual actions. I also believe that each person answers for his or her own sins, not the sins of his ancestors. I'm only a third generation immigrant, my family coming from Germany and Austria in the early 20th century. I feel no more personal responsibility for slavery than I do the Holocaust. I think it's possible to say those things are horrific, without feeling I have to have personal guilt for them. I believe that's a burden of shame that's being hung on people for things their ancestors may or may not have done (in my case, they didn't). I believe people are responsible for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. Each individual IS responsible for righting wrongs that still exist and are in their power to correct, including those things that may have been set in motion by generations before, and I believe institutions need to practice repentance and change for actions of their past, but a person on an individual level is not guilty for something he did not do. Lastly, I also think it's racist to say that white people will only end racism when it benefits them. That goes back to judging poorly an entire group of people based on something out of their control. I think it's uncharitable to characterize people that way, and it is prejudiced. But, I think it's possible to diverge from CRT on those fundamental philosophies, and still agree on many of the same practical points, such as those I mentioned earlier. I agree with much of what CRT teaches about our past and present in terms of our history, our institutions, racial relations, etc. However, why it's wrong and what we do with where we are now is where I diverge. So well said!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jun 28, 2021 3:44:37 GMT
The results of...... While it appears Ted Cruz was endeavoring to ban the teaching of critical race theory, what he has inadvertently done is bar the teaching of several amendments of the Constitution. President Abraham Lincoln's effort to abolish slavery with the 13th Amendment would cause problems since it directly addresses the history of U.S. slavery that was abolished by the new law. Cruz's censorship bill would effectively bar the teaching of that as well as the 14th Amendment, which made it so any person born in the United States a citizen of the United States. It also said that no person can be denied life, liberty or property. Teaching it would likely require educators to explain why that amendment came about, which would be censored by Cruz's bill. It would also stop the teaching of the 15th Amendment, which ensured that all citizens of the United States had the right to vote "shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." Even the word "servitude" would violate the censorship law Cruz wants to enact. Critics wondered how educators would be able to teach about the three-fifths compromise under Cruz's law. **** The legislation goes back to the manufactured crisis created by a right-wing think tank to create a culture war issue involving people of color and the teaching of slavery. Many on the right feel defensive about their children learning that white people enslaved people of color and being told that it was morally wrong.www.rawstory.com/ted-cruz-constitution-censorship-bill/The piece also says that the bill would likely never be brought up, but Cruz will use it for major fund raising.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Jun 28, 2021 4:06:36 GMT
I think it’s important enough to note that what you’re asking for is related only to the honest teaching of our history. That is NOT critical race theory. I say this only because it’s precisely this misunderstanding/misinformation that’s proliferating everywhere as evidenced by hordes of parents noisily demanding it not be taught to their children. This is not CRT. I am really struggling with my understanding (or lack thereof) regarding CRT. Someone provided a whole lot of links to what was supposedly the best explanation of it, but it really wasn't helpful to me. I have spent literally hours reading stuff about CRT but I still don't understand it well enough to debate it with anyone. I really need to find a "CRT for Dummies" site. I’m not sure there’s really something that might approximate a CRT for Dummies because it’s a compendium of articles from law journals, and is about 600 pages. For a primer, though, the best one I’ve seen thus far is from the American Bar Association because it lays out the principles clearly without all the scholarship jargon. However, it lacks critique. So be aware of that. A Lesson on Critical Race Theory
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