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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 4, 2021 9:42:06 GMT
May I ask why you’re not vaccinated? I have a heart issue that the cardiologist couldn't figure out. I've had EKGs and an echo, and I'm in the "watching and waiting" stage. I'm currently not going in crowds, keeping my distance, not going in stores, basically self isolation. I'm careful who I socialize with, and my close friends know I'm not currently vaccinated. I'm planning to get vaccinated before winter, when I have to be inside more. I am watching data very closely. I do know lots of people with health issues are vaccinated. I'm still cautious and keeping my distance. I hope that your doctors clear you soon for vaccination.
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Post by miominmio on Aug 4, 2021 10:01:30 GMT
I will be the lone dissenter on this issue. I am pro vaccine, but I also acknowledge that this vaccine has not been fully approved, we do not fully know what it will or will not do. I do not believe in mandating such a vaccine AT THIS STAGE of it's existence. Once it has gone through the proper channels, we can look at mandating. Yes I also believe in science so I realize I am in the small majority who feel this way. I have had mine. Got it as soon as I was eligible. For the record I do not believe in mandating the flu vaccine either. I do not believe in providing proof of vaccines to go about my daily life. I do agree with the current mandated proof for travel, admission into medical facility (like long term care type situations), attending any schools. I do not agree with proof of vaccines to dine out or go grocery shopping or go to Michaels. I struggle with my thoughts on large venues such as indoor concerts because I am not quite sure where I stand there. I can admit that. This is all new to me and I have no problems admitting when I have conflict in how I feel/believe and what I am reading from medical experts. I am worried that California will follow with this type of thing. We tend to follow NY in the handling of the virus. I feel there is a lot of room for choice already. I can choose to vaccinate or not. I can choose to attend a concert or not. I can wear a mask in any venue I choose or I don't have to. Those who choose not to vaccinate or wear a mask have to live with their own choices and the consequences of those actions. I understand herd immunity very well, however this vaccine is not a mandated vaccine. If they aren't willing to mandate it, then they shouldn't be able to mandate proof of it other than medical, travel, school. If you really want it that badly, then mandate it. I have a feeling the reason they don't mandate it is because they wouldn't win the court fights at this stage and this is their end route around that issue. For a party that doesn't want anyone telling them what to do with their bodies, the reaction and support of this particular things is a bit surprising. I am with you on this. I am 100% for vaccine but some of this is treading a little to close to communism to me 😂😂🤣🤣🤣
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Post by hookturnian on Aug 4, 2021 11:42:12 GMT
Anyone who is helping the voluntarily unvaccinated hide among people who have done the right thing is not someone I want to spend time with. By protecting their choice to keep all this going, you are indirectly causing the rest of us harm. I declined to answer at my work as well because they told us that once you provide proof that you are vaccinated you no longer have to wear a mask AND you are no longer contacted as a part of contact tracing for exposure. I am also around high risk folks and young kids who can’t be vaccinated. I’m going to wear a mask anyway but I want to be notified if I was exposed therefore I declined to answer. I certainly hope I’m not getting rage from folks because I want to be in control of what I expose my family to? It is concerning that your employer would not let you know if you have been exposed. It is known that one can be positive but asymptomatic. This policy will result in asymptomatic breakthrough cases being under-reported, and the efficacy of vaccines being artificially inflated. Bad science.
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Post by tealpaperowl on Aug 4, 2021 11:49:13 GMT
I am fully vaccinated. However I don't see how they'll staff this to ensure. I mean what about fraud cards? I'm sure those are going to start circulating.
I'm on a shot for asthma where I can't get the flu shot (or any live vaccine) so if that becomes a mandate, I guess I'll have to carry a doctor's note with me.
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Post by Merge on Aug 4, 2021 12:36:36 GMT
I guess we have learned different lessons about trust during all this. What I’ve learned is that I can’t trust about half of our fellow Americans to consider anything other than their own selfish interest in making personal and political choices. I also can’t trust them to make a good faith effort to seek out valid information in making those choices, rather than giving in to confirmation bias or mindlessly seeking the approval of their reference group. So if I’m going to go out there and put myself in harm’s way - particularly after having been one of thousands of educators thrown under the metaphorical bus by society last year - I want some assurances that reasonable steps have been taken to keep me and the people around me safe. I don’t trust anyone who wants to hide their vaccination status. The unvaccinated are the reason the big prizes of being vaccinated - free movement, no masks, normal activities - are being taken away from the conscientious again. Show me you’re not one of the people/entities contributing to that, or I’m not interested in being around you, spending money in your establishment, or teaching your kids. oh my lessons in trust are not positive lessons. I do not trust most humans as far as I can spit and I can't spit that far. People who know my full story have asked me why I am not angry. I cannot afford that emotion. It destroys me physically and mentally. So I learned a long time ago to avoid that emotion for long periods of time, but I have also re evaluated my blanket belief systems. As evidenced by other peas who have posted here, there are other reasons why people choose not to disclose and it is a protection of others that they choose this option. If they disclose then they are not notified if they have been exposed. Since we do know that vaccinated people can carry the virus, I also would not disclose if that was an outcome. I would want to know if I am exposed to the virus vaccine or not. Does this still make us complicit in aiding the unvaccinated? No. It is steps that are taken to protect those around us as well. The key is that they shouldn't have to explain themselves to anyone. They can politely decline and move on. If you want to get angry at the people who are openly non vaccinated go for it. But a little compassion for people who have complicated reasons for not disclosing is not a hard thing to ask. All this talk of people finding other jobs, it could be very well turned around on you and me both. We both could take different jobs that would not lead to us having these feelings. You could quit teaching to protect those children. I could stop being a nurse to protect my patients and my family members by bringing home the virus or carrying it with me to a docs office. I'm guessing your argument for not leaving teaching would be very similar to mine for leaving nursing. Who will take care of the children/patients? If I go get another nursing job, my risk of bringing home the virus to compromised family members or passing it to another non vaccinated/compromised patient is still the same. I laugh at the "Well they can just stay home" arguments as well. At the very beginning of this mess, the other side said the very same thing: those at risk should just stay at home and let the rest of us live their lives. And here we are again except the tables are turned. yes I realize it isn't that simple however it is highly entertaining how an argument we took so much offense to at the beginning has now become our argument for our point. I get the anger. I may not feel it personally but I do understand some of it. I don't understand the level to which you paint everyone with the same brush. Well, I don’t know what to tell you. Those are my feelings and I have a right to them. I don’t understand the big privacy issue that you seem to see in disclosing vaccination status. It’s not potentially sensitive medical information to me. And in my experience, the vast majority of those wanting privacy on this issue are really seeking to avoid any social consequences of being unvaccinated during a health crisis, so I don’t agree with supporting that. If you want to stand on principle with medical privacy, I think it would be better to choose an area that isn’t wrapped up in a health crisis. I don’t have any qualms at all about leaving teaching as soon as I am able to do so, BTW. Someone else is welcome to teach the kids, but I’m looking for my exit ASAP. Love kids, love many aspects of teaching, but I no longer have any interest in putting up with the many downsides in exchange for being treated as expendable by society. And since you already recognize that it’s more complicated than seeing “tables turned” in telling the unvaccinated to stay home, I won’t go into why that’s not really a valid comparison.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Aug 4, 2021 13:09:05 GMT
I laugh at the "Well they can just stay home" arguments as well. At the very beginning of this mess, the other side said the very same thing: those at risk should just stay at home and let the rest of us live their lives. And here we are again except the tables are turned. yes I realize it isn't that simple however it is highly entertaining how an argument we took so much offense to at the beginning has now become our argument for our point. I get the anger. I may not feel it personally but I do understand some of it. I don't understand the level to which you paint everyone with the same brush. I was the one who made the "tables are turned" ironic point with humor. I do find it funny that the words they spoke are now back to haunt them. I wasn't offended by their statements, I was offended by their actions. In almost every case where someone around me made a stupid decision in regard to Covid, they suffered consequences. I hated to see that. I have two friends with long Covid right now who thought it would be a good idea to throw a graduation openhouse last summer and an wedding last fall. Both events ended up being Covid spreaders. And both of the people in question were right on top of getting vaccinated. My aunt's sister-in-law just lost her life to Covid. She and her husband were anti-vax. I had met her over the years at family gatherings and honestly, I feel very sorry for her kids now having to grow up without a mother. I don't feel any of that is funny. I don't find any humor in people suffering from Covid whether they made poor decisions or not. In fact, it is this suffering around me which leads to extreme sadness and empathy for people making stupid decisions. And if it affected only them, that would be one thing. But it affects all of us. I had two weeks worth of neurological side effects from my second vaccine. I already have a mental illness and reading the reports of the number of people suffering mental defects post-Covid scares the hell out of me. Frankly, I'll tell you that managing my mental health is already a full-time job and I can't possibly handle making things worse for myself. The fact that I can have empathy for an anti-vaxxer who lost her life and left her children behind but others do not have empathy for the fact that I'm already impaired and could suffer worse impairment, is causing my resentment. I did just stay home. I sacrificed Thanksgiving and Christmas with my family while I watched the pictures on Facebook of other families getting together. I'm not an introvert. Social distancing was difficult but I did it. And I practically skipped into my office a few weeks ago to begin a hybrid work situation. I know I have missed out on human interaction. And I really do feel like I did everything I could to get through this as unscathed as I possibly could. I want my life back now. And while there are outliers like luckyexwife who is nervous about possible cardiac effects from being vaccinated (understandable completely), most of the people who aren't getting vaccinated at this point are able to be lumped together as a group-think situation. Just as pre-vaccination times, everyone's actions here impact everyone else. I chose what I chose to protect my friends and family. I think it's a cry out to other people, "protect me too. My life has value too." If I posted here about someone threatening my life in another way, there isn't a pea here who wouldn't say that person is toxic, cut them out of your life, avoid them, etc. Why is this different? Why am I to be understanding of them? All these people dead, all these people permanently disabled by this virus. They can see this and it's not important to them. Getting to go out to eat is more important? The case remains, I have empathy for people that don't have any single concern for my well-being. If this were another issue, peas would be slapping me silly for continuing to interact with these people.
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Post by smasonnc on Aug 4, 2021 13:31:50 GMT
I sat behind an antivaxxer on the airport shuttle this morning. She yammered on about how much “research she had done, listening to podcasts and YouTube. “I’m not at risk. I don’t have diabetes or high blood pressure. I’m not overweight or have COPD so I’m not giving up MY freedoms.” I remembered this analogy. You’re on a boat. One guy digs a hole in the floor of his cabin. Water flows in and the other passengers are p*$$ed. But it’s just his cabin, he argues.
My daughter working in the ER said she feels like a fire fighter where every time they almost get the fire put out, people light more fires. Young, healthy people are dying and we’re bickering about showing a piece of paper. Unbelievable.
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Post by claudia123 on Aug 4, 2021 14:54:49 GMT
How do people who consider themselves to be anti racist square this policy with the fact that significantly fewer black people in New York are fully vaccinated compared to white people, often due to distrust in medical institutions because of institutional racism? I guess its the same reason people say that they think black lives matter, but have no objection to the fact that less than 1% of people in many low income (predominantly non white) countries have recieved even one vaccine, while low risk young people in rich (predominantly white) countries have already had two.
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Post by Merge on Aug 4, 2021 15:29:13 GMT
How do people who consider themselves to be anti racist square this policy with the fact that significantly fewer black people in New York are fully vaccinated compared to white people, often due to distrust in medical institutions because of institutional racism? I guess its the same reason people say that they think black lives matter, but have no objection to the fact that less than 1% of people in many low income (predominantly non white) countries have recieved even one vaccine, while low risk young people in rich (predominantly white) countries have already had two. There have been and continue to be massive outreach and access drives to get marginalized communities vaccinated, including outreach by black community and religious leaders. Of course, it’s the GOP who objects to these efforts when they drill down to the individual level, so I’m not sure what your point is. And we do have a problem with the fact that poor countries have less access to effective vaccines than rich, mostly white ones, which is why we’re pressuring the Biden admin to continue to send vaccines overseas. Trump, on the other hand, tried to make a deal to get vaccines produced exclusively for the US. What was your point again? Oh, you didn’t have one.
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Post by claudia123 on Aug 4, 2021 15:55:26 GMT
How do people who consider themselves to be anti racist square this policy with the fact that significantly fewer black people in New York are fully vaccinated compared to white people, often due to distrust in medical institutions because of institutional racism? I guess its the same reason people say that they think black lives matter, but have no objection to the fact that less than 1% of people in many low income (predominantly non white) countries have recieved even one vaccine, while low risk young people in rich (predominantly white) countries have already had two. There have been and continue to be massive outreach and access drives to get marginalized communities vaccinated, including outreach by black community and religious leaders. Of course, it’s the GOP who objects to these efforts when they drill down to the individual level, so I’m not sure what your point is. And we do have a problem with the fact that poor countries have less access to effective vaccines than rich, mostly white ones, which is why we’re pressuring the Biden admin to continue to send vaccines overseas. Trump, on the other hand, tried to make a deal to get vaccines produced exclusively for the US. What was your point again? Oh, you didn’t have one. You don't know what my point is because the republican party oppose targeted outreach at the black community? Thats hardly a suprise to me, someone who is (much) more left wing than even the democrats. However, i still don't understand why that means it's okay to put in mandates that we know will disproportionately affect black and minority people? Surely it does the opposite if anything, as it makes it even more understandable why these communities have lower vaccine takeup than their white counterparts. And it's way too little, too late for people to say that they have been pressuring Biden to give more vaccines to countries abroad, when theres been no real pressure to consider whether we should have even started vaccinating teenagers when elderly people and health care worker abroad remain largely unprotected. We should have had equitable access from the start, not rich countries buying up all the vaccines in the hopes that they would later donate them.
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scrappinspidey2
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,511
Location: In the Parlor with the Fly
Mar 18, 2015 19:19:37 GMT
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Post by scrappinspidey2 on Aug 4, 2021 18:20:25 GMT
oh my lessons in trust are not positive lessons. I do not trust most humans as far as I can spit and I can't spit that far. People who know my full story have asked me why I am not angry. I cannot afford that emotion. It destroys me physically and mentally. So I learned a long time ago to avoid that emotion for long periods of time, but I have also re evaluated my blanket belief systems. As evidenced by other peas who have posted here, there are other reasons why people choose not to disclose and it is a protection of others that they choose this option. If they disclose then they are not notified if they have been exposed. Since we do know that vaccinated people can carry the virus, I also would not disclose if that was an outcome. I would want to know if I am exposed to the virus vaccine or not. Does this still make us complicit in aiding the unvaccinated? No. It is steps that are taken to protect those around us as well. The key is that they shouldn't have to explain themselves to anyone. They can politely decline and move on. If you want to get angry at the people who are openly non vaccinated go for it. But a little compassion for people who have complicated reasons for not disclosing is not a hard thing to ask. All this talk of people finding other jobs, it could be very well turned around on you and me both. We both could take different jobs that would not lead to us having these feelings. You could quit teaching to protect those children. I could stop being a nurse to protect my patients and my family members by bringing home the virus or carrying it with me to a docs office. I'm guessing your argument for not leaving teaching would be very similar to mine for leaving nursing. Who will take care of the children/patients? If I go get another nursing job, my risk of bringing home the virus to compromised family members or passing it to another non vaccinated/compromised patient is still the same. I laugh at the "Well they can just stay home" arguments as well. At the very beginning of this mess, the other side said the very same thing: those at risk should just stay at home and let the rest of us live their lives. And here we are again except the tables are turned. yes I realize it isn't that simple however it is highly entertaining how an argument we took so much offense to at the beginning has now become our argument for our point. I get the anger. I may not feel it personally but I do understand some of it. I don't understand the level to which you paint everyone with the same brush. Well, I don’t know what to tell you. Those are my feelings and I have a right to them. I don’t understand the big privacy issue that you seem to see in disclosing vaccination status. It’s not potentially sensitive medical information to me. And in my experience, the vast majority of those wanting privacy on this issue are really seeking to avoid any social consequences of being unvaccinated during a health crisis, so I don’t agree with supporting that. If you want to stand on principle with medical privacy, I think it would be better to choose an area that isn’t wrapped up in a health crisis. I don’t have any qualms at all about leaving teaching as soon as I am able to do so, BTW. Someone else is welcome to teach the kids, but I’m looking for my exit ASAP. Love kids, love many aspects of teaching, but I no longer have any interest in putting up with the many downsides in exchange for being treated as expendable by society. And since you already recognize that it’s more complicated than seeing “tables turned” in telling the unvaccinated to stay home, I won’t go into why that’s not really a valid comparison. @merge if at any point it comes across as me saying you don't have a right to your feelings then I apologize. That was NEVER the intent. The intent was to have a discussion and learn more about people who view this differently. You have done that. I don't agree with the blanket statement (which is something I never really have agreed with in any discussion), however you have shown me a view into a different way of thinking. You didn't call me names or get rude. I feel the anger you have toward the situation, but I never felt it was directed at me personally or anything like that. I appreciate the discussion. I would hope that it came across the same to you. We don't all have to think alike thank goodness or conversations would be very boring I don't believe the showing of vaccination status is appropriate at this time. Ya'll thought people got enraged over masks...and the people who will get the brunt of it will be the front line, low paid workers. There are no real consequences for this. There are fake immunization cards out there. I have seen one. My patient was very proud of it. It was very difficult to stay professional but I let him have it just barely under the professional line. He told me that he paid very little for it and it passed through the screening process for the cruise he was going on. I'm willing to change my mind down the road on the issue. This last year has been a lot of that. At this time though I do not think this is the answer.
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Post by ntsf on Aug 4, 2021 18:35:29 GMT
around here. businesses are getting more business enforcing masks, etc. the vast majority are vaccinated, and they want reassurance that they can go out where people are vaccinated. we don't like putting the mask on perhaps, but most never took them off.
I am happy private businesses are doing this.and the city mandated employees also vaccinate.
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Post by Merge on Aug 4, 2021 18:47:08 GMT
There have been and continue to be massive outreach and access drives to get marginalized communities vaccinated, including outreach by black community and religious leaders. Of course, it’s the GOP who objects to these efforts when they drill down to the individual level, so I’m not sure what your point is. And we do have a problem with the fact that poor countries have less access to effective vaccines than rich, mostly white ones, which is why we’re pressuring the Biden admin to continue to send vaccines overseas. Trump, on the other hand, tried to make a deal to get vaccines produced exclusively for the US. What was your point again? Oh, you didn’t have one. You don't know what my point is because the republican party oppose targeted outreach at the black community? Thats hardly a suprise to me, someone who is (much) more left wing than even the democrats. However, i still don't understand why that means it's okay to put in mandates that we know will disproportionately affect black and minority people? Surely it does the opposite if anything, as it makes it even more understandable why these communities have lower vaccine takeup than their white counterparts. And it's way too little, too late for people to say that they have been pressuring Biden to give more vaccines to countries abroad, when theres been no real pressure to consider whether we should have even started vaccinating teenagers when elderly people and health care worker abroad remain largely unprotected. We should have had equitable access from the start, not rich countries buying up all the vaccines in the hopes that they would later donate them. As I think you're preaching to the choir here, again, I'm not sure why you're lashing out in this way. Insofar as vaccine requirements negatively affect any community, the ultimate goal is not to exclude people but to get them vaccinated. If the example of civic and religious leaders, along with the evidence that millions of other have been vaccinated so far without ill effect (and with great success and preventing serious illness and death) isn't sufficient to overcome understandable initial hesitancy, then we need to try a different angle. The fact is that these are vulnerable communities and it's in everyone's best interest for their vaccine rates to be at least as high as others. With regard to overseas distribution, what we "should have" done is really irrelevant now. It doesn't benefit anyone in any country for us to refuse vaccine doses that are already here as a show of protest for our overseas policy. It's possible to encourage both domestic vaccination efforts AND want us to do better with overseas distribution. At this point, supply is not the problem. We can only move forward.
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Post by claudia123 on Aug 4, 2021 20:43:11 GMT
You don't know what my point is because the republican party oppose targeted outreach at the black community? Thats hardly a suprise to me, someone who is (much) more left wing than even the democrats. However, i still don't understand why that means it's okay to put in mandates that we know will disproportionately affect black and minority people? Surely it does the opposite if anything, as it makes it even more understandable why these communities have lower vaccine takeup than their white counterparts. And it's way too little, too late for people to say that they have been pressuring Biden to give more vaccines to countries abroad, when theres been no real pressure to consider whether we should have even started vaccinating teenagers when elderly people and health care worker abroad remain largely unprotected. We should have had equitable access from the start, not rich countries buying up all the vaccines in the hopes that they would later donate them. As I think you're preaching to the choir here, again, I'm not sure why you're lashing out in this way. Insofar as vaccine requirements negatively affect any community, the ultimate goal is not to exclude people but to get them vaccinated. If the example of civic and religious leaders, along with the evidence that millions of other have been vaccinated so far without ill effect (and with great success and preventing serious illness and death) isn't sufficient to overcome understandable initial hesitancy, then we need to try a different angle. The fact is that these are vulnerable communities and it's in everyone's best interest for their vaccine rates to be at least as high as others. With regard to overseas distribution, what we "should have" done is really irrelevant now. It doesn't benefit anyone in any country for us to refuse vaccine doses that are already here as a show of protest for our overseas policy. It's possible to encourage both domestic vaccination efforts AND want us to do better with overseas distribution. At this point, supply is not the problem. We can only move forward. I'm sorry it felt like i was lashing out, i genuinely have just found it quite disconcerting to be on such a differnt page regarding covid to people I normally agree with wholeheartedly on political issues. I just fundamentally believe that mandating vaccines to this extent will do nothing but make people more hesitant and further disenfranchise those who are on the margins of society. Especially undocumented people, the homeless and those who are distrustful of medical institutions (all of which are disproportionately non white people)
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Post by melanell on Aug 6, 2021 11:16:27 GMT
The way I see it, people were asked to do a relatively simple thing---wear masks when in public, and we (as a society, not individually) freaking lost our minds about it. So now, we're facing the consequence---businesses requiring proof of vaccination instead.
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Post by christine58 on Aug 6, 2021 11:29:58 GMT
The way I see it, people were asked to do a relatively simple thing---wear masks when in public, and we (as a society, not individually) freaking lost our minds about it. So now, we're facing the consequence---businesses requiring proof of vaccination instead. When the mask mandates were lifted a few weeks ago, those unvaccinated were expected to continue to wear a mask---a HUGE majority did NOT. If they had, we might still be in the same situation but I doubt it would have been as bad as it is. Using a gym or eating out is not a right---it's a privilege. If you want those benefits--get the F------ shot or stop whining.
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Post by guzismom on Aug 6, 2021 14:11:23 GMT
Good to know. I am headed there next Friday; guess I better bring my card or figure out if a digital/phone version will suffice.
ETA: enforcement will not begin until mid-Sept.
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Post by melanell on Aug 6, 2021 17:13:14 GMT
The way I see it, people were asked to do a relatively simple thing---wear masks when in public, and we (as a society, not individually) freaking lost our minds about it. So now, we're facing the consequence---businesses requiring proof of vaccination instead. When the mask mandates were lifted a few weeks ago, those unvaccinated were expected to continue to wear a mask---a HUGE majority did NOT. Exactly. People were given an easier way to deal with this situation. People opted not to cooperate. Now people are annoyed that they are being dealt a more inconvenient consequence. And that's been the case right along. People are asked to do something. People don't do it. Then things become more difficult. The whole situation is aggravating, but I find it particularly annoying when people I know fought against every single thing we were asked to do before this point are now upset about this.
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