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Post by heartcat on Nov 26, 2014 11:18:45 GMT
There is a story in the news here now regarding a male politician and allegations by a female politician of sexual misconduct. From my understanding he invited her back to his hotel room for drinks, she went, and they had sex.
Apparently she did not say 'no' but says that she did not give explicit consent. I have to admit that my first reaction is that if someone goes to someone's hotel room, has a few drinks, and things begin to become physical that you have a responsibility to communicate to the other person if you are uncomfortable or do not wish to proceed.
I do not know if I have 'ever' given 'explicit consent' before having sex with a man. Nor have I ever gotten it. I would not assume that unless a man told me he is definitely okay with being intimate that he might not be. Not if the circumstances were such that we were both participating.
I believe that if someone says 'no' or indicates in any way that they are uncomfortable or unsure, that it is wrong to force them. But I also believe people have a responsibility to communicate that. I think that if someone goes along with a sexual encounter and does not do that, that even if they do not come right out and say 'this is okay with me' that it could reasonably be assumed that they are indeed okay with it.
I hate the idea of anyone pressuring anyone into having sex. I do not think anyone 'owes' anyone sex or that there ever comes a point where someone should not be able to say 'no' or to change their mind, regardless of what they said or did prior to that. But I do think it is unfair to not say or do anything to indicate to another person that you do not want to have sex with them, and then to say afterwards that since you didn't specifically say 'yes, you can have sex with me' that they did something morally or legally wrong.
Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe there is more to the story that I have not heard yet. Is it the norm to expect to give and to receive explicit consent before engaging in sex with someone, and I have just been out of the loop my entire life?
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Post by rainangel on Nov 26, 2014 11:55:40 GMT
You know, the safest thing for everyone would be to sign a contract before having sex. We are almost at the point where this is necessary.... I have never said 'yes you can have sex with me' to anyone I've had sex with. If I am there in the situation it is however obvious that I am participating.
I hate the idea of someone being pressured into sex, because that is WRONG! But if you never say 'no' or never pull away from the other person while you are 'embracing' and getting sexual, how is the other person to know that you are not doing this willingly?
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 11:56:00 GMT
Explicit or affirmative consent is something to protect people who are incapable of saying 'no'. The female MP was not incapacitated in any way so, unless I'm missing something, I don't see sexual misconduct.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Nov 26, 2014 12:33:33 GMT
I'm confused about the whole thing. From Trudeau's announcement to these latest details, I feel like there's something important missing but I don't know what it is. It's just... weird.
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Post by melanell on Nov 26, 2014 12:39:13 GMT
I have never given 'explicit consent' before having sex. I don't think that's something people typically do. And I agree that the very idea of it is to protect those who cannot give consent nor not give it. Someone who is capable of rational thought and physically able to say "no", should do so if they don't want to continue. I'm not sure what happened in this case, but I am not getting the impression that anything was keeping her from saying that she didn't want to have sex.  And I agree that it is completely unfair to go along with sex as if you are fine with it and then come back later and claim that you never said "Yes, I want to have sex", therefore the other was in the wrong. 
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 21:55:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:39:22 GMT
It sounds like a case of "buyers remorse". At least from the details here. If she can't stand up for herself and say no and let's herself get so swept up in not being able to stand up for herself, she has no business representing the public.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:03:11 GMT
I think a man that mixes alcohol with women had better protect themselves with an explicit "Yes" from the woman. I don't know how many drinks she had or how those drinks affected her. Quite possibly he doesn't know either. 
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 13:21:23 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh.
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Nanner
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Post by Nanner on Nov 26, 2014 13:23:16 GMT
She's ridiculous. She didn't say no. She participated.
So what's she trying to get out of this? Just publicity? Public sympathy? Revenge?
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Nanner
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Post by Nanner on Nov 26, 2014 13:24:36 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh. lol! Can't say it ever happened that way to me!
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Nink
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Post by Nink on Nov 26, 2014 13:35:28 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh. Can't say that I ever have. Probably a "are you thinkin' what I'm thinkin'" is about as close as it probably ever got to that. I've had encounters I regretted, not because I didn't give direct consent, but they just weren't that great. I agree with PP who said she's got a case of buyers remorse.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 26, 2014 13:42:13 GMT
I think explicit consent is ridiculous.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 13:43:58 GMT
I think explicit consent is ridiculous. So do guys who have sex with unconscious co-eds.
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Nink
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Post by Nink on Nov 26, 2014 13:48:59 GMT
I think explicit consent is ridiculous. So do guys who have sex with unconscious co-eds. I thought this discussion was about two people who are actively participating in the process. I don't think you'll find anyone on here who disagrees that if one of the individuals is unconscious, it should be a no go.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 26, 2014 13:50:44 GMT
I think explicit consent is ridiculous. So do guys who have sex with unconscious co-eds. That's not even remotely close to the situation discussed in this thread.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 13:54:02 GMT
So do guys who have sex with unconscious co-eds. That's not even remotely close to the situation discussed in this thread. So, it isn't that explicit consent is ridiculous but that it doesn't legally apply in the situation discussed in the OP.
That I agree with.
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back to *pea*ality
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Nov 26, 2014 13:56:22 GMT
I've never been explicit is saying yes you have my full consent but I was pretty explicit when I was attacked in a back room at work screaming my head off. At the time the manager came to my rescue but he did not call the police, (I was 16 and clueless), did not report it to corporate and basically wanted me to forget it happened. He did not fire my attacker. What was especially hurtful was that the crew that worked there who I thought were my friends dismissed it and said he was such a good guy and I should just let it go.
I quit. I didn't tell my parents because my dad would have killed that boy.
No means no, pushing someone off you means no, if you have to put a drug in a girls drink to have sex with her, the no is implicit.
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Post by gar on Nov 26, 2014 13:57:56 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh. I don't recall wording like that, no. Less specific, more insinuated, alluded to etc.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 26, 2014 14:01:31 GMT
That's not even remotely close to the situation discussed in this thread. So, it isn't that explicit consent is ridiculous but that it doesn't legally apply in the situation discussed in the OP.
That I agree with.
I do think explicit consent is ridiculous. Having sex with someone who is unconscious is already illegal due to incapacity. No one needs the concept of explicit consent to protect them from that situation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:01:35 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh. I've never given explicit consent in exactly those terms but my husband knows if I look at him a certain way and say 'get in that bedroom' then that's what I mean, he is free to say no anytime. If the woman in this case did not say no did she give any other indications that she wasn't a willing partner?
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 14:09:48 GMT
So, it isn't that explicit consent is ridiculous but that it doesn't legally apply in the situation discussed in the OP.
That I agree with.
I do think explicit consent is ridiculous. Having sex with someone who is unconscious is already illegal due to incapacity. No one needs the concept of explicit consent to protect them from that situation. But if the victim isn't unconscious but blitzed out of her mind? There's a lot of grey area where a jury would have to make a judgement call and, typically, that judgement call is made in favour of the rapist.
From what I've been reading, it appears that states that have implemented the affirmative consent requirement only do so for college students which, to me, is odd.
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Post by moveablefeast on Nov 26, 2014 14:15:44 GMT
I'm a bit surprised at how many women have never given explicit consent to sex. You've never said, "Hey, let's go have sex"? Nobody has ever asked if you wanted to have sex and you've never replied, "Hell yes!"? Huh. Definitely.  I also think that if you have a phrase you use with your partner, whatever it is, that's explicit consent too. I think more often than not, there is explicit consent in my marriage just because we kind of have those phrases that mean, "Hey, let's go have sex" without necessarily always saying it outright. There was this one time when I was flirting with someone, things went faster than either of us anticipated, and the other person stopped and kind of looked at me and said, hey, are you into this? and I guess I thought it was obvious but it really was nice to have had someone stop and say, hey, just making sure. I still remember that because it felt respectful without being overly formal. It was just that the relationship was new to both of us and nobody wanted to take advantage inappropriately. I think the problem is that on the one hand, much of the time it's pretty obvious between established partners when there's consent and when there's not. But on the other, there are occasions when people feel like they need to be able to delineate what is consent and what isn't, because there is a question about whether one party or the other consented. That's what I see going on in the OP, a situation where consent isn't necessarily clear. Because there is explicit consent, there is explicit non-consent, and then there is a gray area in between that includes coercion, uncertainty, wishy-washiness, indecision, lack of communication, changing one's mind, and all kinds of other stuff that doesn't constitute either explicit consent or explicit non-consent. But when there is a question about whether there actually was consent, sometimes people feel a need to put the situation in one of the two clear categories. I think this is why explicit consent is useful in some situations, but the question isn't always helpful after the fact as evidenced by situations just like this. I think ultimately though, explicit consent isn't a substitute for communication, sensitivity, and respect between individuals. I think if you have those things, you will rarely have a problem with after-the-fact.
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Post by LAM88 on Nov 26, 2014 14:17:22 GMT
I've never been explicit is saying yes you have my full consent but I was pretty explicit when I was attacked in a back room at work screaming my head off. At the time the manager came to my rescue but he did not call the police, (I was 16 and clueless), did not report it to corporate and basically wanted me to forget it happened. He did not fire my attacker. What was especially hurtful was that the crew that worked there who I thought were my friends dismissed it and said he was such a good guy and I should just let it go. I quit. I didn't tell my parents because my dad would have killed that boy. No means no, pushing someone off you means no, if you have to put a drug in a girls drink to have sex with her, the no is implicit. That's such an awful story and one that is way too common. I wonder how many women here have similar stories. I'm sorry that happened to you. 
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Post by roundtwo on Nov 26, 2014 14:39:55 GMT
I was pretty much believing her story about wanting to leave but being grabbed and forcefully held until I got to the line above. I don't think anyone who is so heavily intoxicated that they can't say no is going to be thinking of condoms let alone providing one.
Like others have said, I think there must be more to the story that led to the actions against these two MPs by the party leader.
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Pearl Clutcher
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Nov 26, 2014 14:44:01 GMT
Thanks LAM88 it happened 40 years ago and I have not thought about it in a long, long time. But with Bill Cosby, UVA in the news it bubbled to the top of my conscious thinking when people question why does it take so long for women to talk about it. A few women have said in the Cosby case they are now telling their stories to back up the women who are being called liars. They have absolutely nothing to gain and have subjected themselves to public scorn. In the UVA Rolling Stone article, I was stunned and saddened that young women today would not rally around someone who has been sexually assaulted. My thinking that woman have a stronger voice today and would come to the aid of their sisters was shattered.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 26, 2014 14:44:44 GMT
I do think explicit consent is ridiculous. Having sex with someone who is unconscious is already illegal due to incapacity. No one needs the concept of explicit consent to protect them from that situation. But if the victim isn't unconscious but blitzed out of her mind? There's a lot of grey area where a jury would have to make a judgement call and, typically, that judgement call is made in favour of the rapist.
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I'm ok with that. Yes. Why? Because in a lot of cases both parties have been drinking. I'm not ok with the idea that if a man and a woman are both drinking there is somehow more of a burden on the man when it comes to sexual contact. That's sexist to me and insulting to women. People do things they regret when they get drunk. Sleeping with a man when you're drunk and regretting it doesn't mean you were raped.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 14:50:44 GMT
But if the victim isn't unconscious but blitzed out of her mind? There's a lot of grey area where a jury would have to make a judgement call and, typically, that judgement call is made in favour of the rapist.
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I'm ok with that. Yes. Why? Because in a lot of cases both parties have been drinking. I'm not ok with the idea that if a man and a woman are both drinking there is somehow more of a burden on the man when it comes to sexual contact. That's sexist to me and insulting to women. People do things they regret when they get drunk. Sleeping with a man when you're drunk and regretting it doesn't mean you were raped. But the notion of affirmative consent also protects the man.
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Post by myshelly on Nov 26, 2014 14:52:26 GMT
I'm ok with that. Yes. Why? Because in a lot of cases both parties have been drinking. I'm not ok with the idea that if a man and a woman are both drinking there is somehow more of a burden on the man when it comes to sexual contact. That's sexist to me and insulting to women. People do things they regret when they get drunk. Sleeping with a man when you're drunk and regretting it doesn't mean you were raped. But the notion of affirmative consent also protects the man. Does it protect the man or does it put a higher burden on the man?
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 26, 2014 15:00:43 GMT
But the notion of affirmative consent also protects the man. Does it protect the man or does it put a higher burden on the man? IMO, it protects the man. It's something I've been telling my boys for a while. It's in the man's best interest if he has affirmative consent so that in his drunken stupor, he's not misreading her signals and opening himself up to a rape charge.
And affirmative consent should go both ways.
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Post by melanell on Nov 26, 2014 15:07:35 GMT
If the woman in this case did not say no did she give any other indications that she wasn't a willing partner? We're missing so much information from this story. This is just one piece we don't have. We also don't know about the drinking that was happening and how it affected her. If she was not capable of giving consent, then that right there is a "no", since she wouldn't be able to give 'explicit consent'. The issue is who decides if she is incapable? How well did they know each other? My husband would know if I had had a few too many. But if these two didn't now each well, is it possible that her judgment was indeed impaired and he didn't realize it? Or did he realize it and he took advantage of it? Too many unknowns. Although I agree with Volt---from the guy's perspective, if drinking is involved, it's advisable to be damn sure she's okay with sex before having it.
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