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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 16, 2022 1:45:20 GMT
What specifically is the false premise- and what specifically is misleading about it? They're illegal immigrants, they do not have jobs when they come here illegally. The same way they want to enforce it on legal citizens and those entering legally from the northern border. My post was about green card applicants and you responded with a video of detention facilities. Apples and oranges. Not the same thing. False premise. I refuse to watch Fox News. So here's a general response to your statement about 3 am flights. www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/04/claims-ghost-flights-illegal-immigrants-dont-add-up/By Glenn Kessler Staff writer February 4, 2022 at 3:00 a.m. EST “We write to you today with grave concern regarding your administration’s repeated flying of illegal immigrants from sites along our Southern Border to locations around the United States, including our home state of New York.”
— Letter to President Biden signed by Rep. Elise Stefanick and other GOP House members from New York, Jan. 31
Ghost flights! Secret flights with “underage migrants” in the dead of night! Buses packed with adult “illegal aliens!”
If you are not a regular watcher of Fox News or a reader of the New York Post, Breitbart or the Daily Mail, you might be puzzled by the references above. There’s been virtually no coverage of this supposed news by mainstream media outlets. But there’s been a constant drumbeat of concern in right-wing media, highlighted often by GOP candidates running for governor in Pennsylvania and New York. So one of our colleagues suggested we try to figure out what’s going on.
The implication in some of the news coverage is that the Biden administration is quietly dumping undocumented immigrants into various states away from the border. But that’s wrong. As far as we can tell, little new or different is going on under Biden than under the Trump administration, though the pace of such flights may have increased because of the surge of migrants at the border.
This is more of an explainer, so we’re not offering a Pinocchio rating.
The Facts
Both U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) fly undocumented immigrants to different locations in the United States. ICE handles adults and HHS is responsible for children. At times, both agencies rely on the same contractor, MVM Inc., to manage the flights.
In other words, the same aircraft and crew could one day be ferrying adults to an ICE detention center and the next day carrying unaccompanied minors for HHS. Moreover, on occasion ICE Air, as the entity is known, might be contracted to handle an HHS flight.
“Some of the confusion comes from the fact that we use MVM, the contractor, and so does HHS,” said an ICE official. “We often are charged with providing transportation of unaccompanied minors.”
ICE itself transports thousands of detainees to different detention facilities, in part to maintain a 75 percent bed capacity because of pandemic protocols, the official said. About 21,000 people were in ICE detention as of Jan. 16, compared with about 27,000 in July, according to Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse.
“It’s important to highlight that these are individuals in our custody,” the official said. “We do not transport individuals on ICE flights that have been released from our custody or paroled into the U.S. to await immigration proceedings.”
In some cases, the news reporting appears to have mixed up the type of flights or not made it clear that HHS is sending unaccompanied children to relatives or sponsors. Then, when administration officials explained these were HHS flights, an ICE flight would be spotted, resulting in accusations that adults also were being secretly being shipped across the country. But these are just ICE detainees going to another detention facility, officials said.
Meanwhile, HHS has a different role, required by law.
There are a set of rules in place for the handling of unaccompanied children who cross the border, guided largely by the 1997 “Flores settlement” and the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008. In essence, unaccompanied children should not be held by Customs and Border Protection for longer than 72 hours. Instead, the federal government must release rather than detain undocumented immigrant children, first to their parents, if possible, to other adult relatives if not, and to licensed programs willing to accept custody if no relatives are available.
“This is completely consistent with the law and our responsibilities,” HHS spokesman Jorge Silva in a statement. “Our legal responsibility is to care for unaccompanied children while they are on our watch, and that includes connecting them to vetted sponsors.”
“Once a child is referred to the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), we have policies in place, based on legal requirements as well as child welfare best practices, for assigning children to the most appropriate ORR care provider facility and releasing children to a suitable vetted sponsor as they await their immigration proceedings,” an HHS official told The Fact Checker. “ORR makes every effort to unify a child with an appropriate sponsor or family member. As a result, 90 percent of the children referred to ORR are able to be unified with a sponsor or family member.” ORR’s legal custody ends when the child is placed with a sponsor.
“HHS flights involving unaccompanied children are generally for the purposes of transferring children to a new federal facility or transporting them to the approved sponsor when the sponsor is not able to travel to a federal facility to receive the child,” said Essey Workie, director of the Human Services Initiative at the Migration Policy Institute. “I have no knowledge of adults with unauthorized immigration status being on these flights.”
“ORR only cares for unaccompanied children 17 years of age and younger, not adults or families,” the HHS official said. For privacy reasons concerning underage children, the agency provides few details on the flights or the ultimate destination of the children. Officials were troubled when one news organization, tracking flight landings, followed buses carrying the children to their destinations.
HHS data analyzed by the Migration Policy Institute shows that 107,646 children were released to sponsors in the fiscal year between Oct. 1, 2020 and Sept. 30, 2021, thus including part of Donald Trump’s presidency. That is significantly more than the previous high of 72,837 set during the 2019 fiscal year. The counties with the most children outside of Texas and California — border states — are in Florida, New York, Maryland, Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia. That would suggest a lot of plane flights were needed.
HHS data show about two-thirds of the children in that fiscal year were male, and about one-third were 17, which could suggest why some witness thought they saw adults. Almost half came from Guatemala.
During an October news briefing, White House press secretary Jen Psaki was asked about reports that “thousands of migrants” were being flown in the “middle of the night.”
“It is our legal responsibility to safely care for unaccompanied children until they can be swiftly unified with a parent or a vetted sponsor,” Psaki said, disputing the notion of “middle of the night” flights. “It’s no surprise that kids can be seen traveling through states, not just New York. It’s something that we’re also working to unite children with their family members or vetted sponsors in other parts of the country as well.”
Administration officials said flights take place at all times of the day. Given flight routes from the border, flights in the Northeast might be at the end of a series of hops. Sometimes the federal government seeks to save money by arranging for a flight to land later in the evening.
In November, after Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) accused the Biden administration of secretly flying migrants into his state in the dead of night, CNN checked flight logs for 47 flights between late April and early October and found many took place during the day; 15 landed in Jacksonville between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. The report added: “A former senior Health and Human Services official who served under Trump told CNN these flights also occurred during the Trump administration and at times, similarly, landed at late hours of the night.”
The controversy over these flights erupted anew recently when a GOP candidate for governor in New York, former Westchester County executive Rob Astorino, obtained 51 minutes of video footage from the body cam of Westchester County Police Sgt. Michael Hamborsky. A Boeing 737 jet from Fort Bliss, Tex., had landed on Aug. 31, carrying 142 unaccompanied children who were being transported to buses. The buses were supposed to have been waiting for the flights, but they were late because “someone dropped the ball,” Hamborsky is told.
Hamborksy expressed frustration at the apparent lack of security and apparent unwillingness of the contractors to provide much identification. “A lot of this is just down-low stuff that we don’t tell people because what we don’t want to do is attract attention,” a contractor explains to the officer. Another offers this explanation for the secrecy: “Because if this gets out, the government is betraying the American people.”
Albany County Sheriff Craig Apple, whose department oversees security at Albany International Airport, told the Times Union the circumstances seen on the video seemed unusual and security forces should have been alerted to the flight as a matter of professional courtesy.
“The video is from six months ago in August,” a White House official said in an email. “The footage is of unaccompanied minors being transported, either to a vetted relative or to a sponsor, and yes they passed through Westchester County, N.Y., en route to their final destination.”
The letter signed by Stefanik and other GOP lawmakers skirts around the fact that these are unaccompanied children who, under the law, must be transported to relatives or sponsors. Instead, the letter refers repeatedly to “illegal immigrants” and the Department of Homeland Security, leaving unclear that this is a Health and Human Services program.
Asked why, Stefanik spokeswoman Francis Brennan pointed to an HHS fact sheet that said unaccompanied children are “defined as a child who has no lawful immigration status in the United States.”
The Bottom Line
We’re not sure how much stock to put in the random musings of unidentified contractors. The video at Westchester County Airport certainly suggests the HHS flights for unaccompanied children do not always operate like a smooth machine. But the video does not provide evidence that something nefarious is going on here.
As a technical matter, unaccompanied children are undocumented immigrants. But that still doesn’t excuse reporting or claims by politicians that suggest these “illegal immigrants” are being shipped across the country under the cover of darkness in potential violation of the law. Rather, the law requires that these children be released from custody and placed with someone who will care for them. Mixing them up with ICE detainees — who are being shipped from one detention facility to another — only confuses matters.
The Trump administration also operated such flights of unaccompanied children. The only difference may be that there are more under Biden — and that he’s a Democrat.We will keep our eye on the political rhetoric surrounding this issue — and the administration’s response — to see if Pinocchio ratings are merited in the future.There are plenty of non citizens that do have jobs and even pay taxes. And mandates would apply to them. Same standards as American citizens. How do you suggest the administration enforce a mandate on unauthorized immigrants and refugees already in the country? How would enforcing a mandate at the border crossings work on non citizens already here? That doesn't even make sense. Oh, I won’t watch Fox either. I do look at conservative Twitter to see what the latest eyebrow-raising freakout is all about. It’s much less painless. |
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 16, 2022 1:45:29 GMT
Another one of ours butting in...after funding.... ? Few things annoy me more than rich, ivy-league-educated people pretending they are not, themselves, the elites. |
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 1:46:02 GMT
Many of the covid deaths early in Biden's presidency are a result of the Trump administration inaction.
Do you really believe that? OMG!! Vaccines were available in Trump’s presidency for a whole 30 days. Vaccines have been available in Biden’s presidency his entire time. 450,000+ deaths. It’s not forget that it was warp speed under President Trump that got those vaccines for FJB’s presidency. And still despite vaccines being available and people using their masks we still had 450,000+ deaths. And let’s also not forget that more than 220,000,000 people in this country are currently vaxed.
Which president had no distribution plans and got vaccinated in secret?Did you actually read the article? It makes a good case that a better comparison instead of raw numbers is to compare each president to Europe and their death tolls during the same time frame. Trump led it. biden. |
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 1:50:27 GMT
My post was about green card applicants and you responded with a video of detention facilities. Apples and oranges. Not the same thing. False premise. I refuse to watch Fox News. So here's a general response to your statement about 3 am flights. www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/04/claims-ghost-flights-illegal-immigrants-dont-add-up/By Glenn Kessler Staff writer February 4, 2022 at 3:00 a.m. EST “We write to you today with grave concern regarding your administration’s repeated flying of illegal immigrants from sites along our Southern Border to locations around the United States, including our home state of New York.”
— Letter to President Biden signed by Rep. Elise Stefanick and other GOP House members from New York, Jan. 31
Ghost flights! Secret flights with “underage migrants” in the dead of night! Buses packed with adult “illegal aliens!”
If you are not a regular watcher of Fox News or a reader of the New York Post, Breitbart or the Daily Mail, you might be puzzled by the references above. There’s been virtually no coverage of this supposed news by mainstream media outlets. But there’s been a constant drumbeat of concern in right-wing media, highlighted often by GOP candidates running for governor in Pennsylvania and New York. So one of our colleagues suggested we try to figure out what’s going on.
The implication in some of the news coverage is that the Biden administration is quietly dumping undocumented immigrants into various states away from the border. But that’s wrong. As far as we can tell, little new or different is going on under Biden than under the Trump administration, though the pace of such flights may have increased because of the surge of migrants at the border.
This is more of an explainer, so we’re not offering a Pinocchio rating.
The Facts
Both U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) fly undocumented immigrants to different locations in the United States. ICE handles adults and HHS is responsible for children. At times, both agencies rely on the same contractor, MVM Inc., to manage the flights.
In other words, the same aircraft and crew could one day be ferrying adults to an ICE detention center and the next day carrying unaccompanied minors for HHS. Moreover, on occasion ICE Air, as the entity is known, might be contracted to handle an HHS flight.
“Some of the confusion comes from the fact that we use MVM, the contractor, and so does HHS,” said an ICE official. “We often are charged with providing transportation of unaccompanied minors.”
ICE itself transports thousands of detainees to different detention facilities, in part to maintain a 75 percent bed capacity because of pandemic protocols, the official said. About 21,000 people were in ICE detention as of Jan. 16, compared with about 27,000 in July, according to Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse.
“It’s important to highlight that these are individuals in our custody,” the official said. “We do not transport individuals on ICE flights that have been released from our custody or paroled into the U.S. to await immigration proceedings.”
In some cases, the news reporting appears to have mixed up the type of flights or not made it clear that HHS is sending unaccompanied children to relatives or sponsors. Then, when administration officials explained these were HHS flights, an ICE flight would be spotted, resulting in accusations that adults also were being secretly being shipped across the country. But these are just ICE detainees going to another detention facility, officials said.
Meanwhile, HHS has a different role, required by law.
There are a set of rules in place for the handling of unaccompanied children who cross the border, guided largely by the 1997 “Flores settlement” and the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008. In essence, unaccompanied children should not be held by Customs and Border Protection for longer than 72 hours. Instead, the federal government must release rather than detain undocumented immigrant children, first to their parents, if possible, to other adult relatives if not, and to licensed programs willing to accept custody if no relatives are available.
“This is completely consistent with the law and our responsibilities,” HHS spokesman Jorge Silva in a statement. “Our legal responsibility is to care for unaccompanied children while they are on our watch, and that includes connecting them to vetted sponsors.”
“Once a child is referred to the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), we have policies in place, based on legal requirements as well as child welfare best practices, for assigning children to the most appropriate ORR care provider facility and releasing children to a suitable vetted sponsor as they await their immigration proceedings,” an HHS official told The Fact Checker. “ORR makes every effort to unify a child with an appropriate sponsor or family member. As a result, 90 percent of the children referred to ORR are able to be unified with a sponsor or family member.” ORR’s legal custody ends when the child is placed with a sponsor.
“HHS flights involving unaccompanied children are generally for the purposes of transferring children to a new federal facility or transporting them to the approved sponsor when the sponsor is not able to travel to a federal facility to receive the child,” said Essey Workie, director of the Human Services Initiative at the Migration Policy Institute. “I have no knowledge of adults with unauthorized immigration status being on these flights.”
“ORR only cares for unaccompanied children 17 years of age and younger, not adults or families,” the HHS official said. For privacy reasons concerning underage children, the agency provides few details on the flights or the ultimate destination of the children. Officials were troubled when one news organization, tracking flight landings, followed buses carrying the children to their destinations.
HHS data analyzed by the Migration Policy Institute shows that 107,646 children were released to sponsors in the fiscal year between Oct. 1, 2020 and Sept. 30, 2021, thus including part of Donald Trump’s presidency. That is significantly more than the previous high of 72,837 set during the 2019 fiscal year. The counties with the most children outside of Texas and California — border states — are in Florida, New York, Maryland, Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia. That would suggest a lot of plane flights were needed.
HHS data show about two-thirds of the children in that fiscal year were male, and about one-third were 17, which could suggest why some witness thought they saw adults. Almost half came from Guatemala.
During an October news briefing, White House press secretary Jen Psaki was asked about reports that “thousands of migrants” were being flown in the “middle of the night.”
“It is our legal responsibility to safely care for unaccompanied children until they can be swiftly unified with a parent or a vetted sponsor,” Psaki said, disputing the notion of “middle of the night” flights. “It’s no surprise that kids can be seen traveling through states, not just New York. It’s something that we’re also working to unite children with their family members or vetted sponsors in other parts of the country as well.”
Administration officials said flights take place at all times of the day. Given flight routes from the border, flights in the Northeast might be at the end of a series of hops. Sometimes the federal government seeks to save money by arranging for a flight to land later in the evening.
In November, after Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) accused the Biden administration of secretly flying migrants into his state in the dead of night, CNN checked flight logs for 47 flights between late April and early October and found many took place during the day; 15 landed in Jacksonville between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. The report added: “A former senior Health and Human Services official who served under Trump told CNN these flights also occurred during the Trump administration and at times, similarly, landed at late hours of the night.”
The controversy over these flights erupted anew recently when a GOP candidate for governor in New York, former Westchester County executive Rob Astorino, obtained 51 minutes of video footage from the body cam of Westchester County Police Sgt. Michael Hamborsky. A Boeing 737 jet from Fort Bliss, Tex., had landed on Aug. 31, carrying 142 unaccompanied children who were being transported to buses. The buses were supposed to have been waiting for the flights, but they were late because “someone dropped the ball,” Hamborsky is told.
Hamborksy expressed frustration at the apparent lack of security and apparent unwillingness of the contractors to provide much identification. “A lot of this is just down-low stuff that we don’t tell people because what we don’t want to do is attract attention,” a contractor explains to the officer. Another offers this explanation for the secrecy: “Because if this gets out, the government is betraying the American people.”
Albany County Sheriff Craig Apple, whose department oversees security at Albany International Airport, told the Times Union the circumstances seen on the video seemed unusual and security forces should have been alerted to the flight as a matter of professional courtesy.
“The video is from six months ago in August,” a White House official said in an email. “The footage is of unaccompanied minors being transported, either to a vetted relative or to a sponsor, and yes they passed through Westchester County, N.Y., en route to their final destination.”
The letter signed by Stefanik and other GOP lawmakers skirts around the fact that these are unaccompanied children who, under the law, must be transported to relatives or sponsors. Instead, the letter refers repeatedly to “illegal immigrants” and the Department of Homeland Security, leaving unclear that this is a Health and Human Services program.
Asked why, Stefanik spokeswoman Francis Brennan pointed to an HHS fact sheet that said unaccompanied children are “defined as a child who has no lawful immigration status in the United States.”
The Bottom Line
We’re not sure how much stock to put in the random musings of unidentified contractors. The video at Westchester County Airport certainly suggests the HHS flights for unaccompanied children do not always operate like a smooth machine. But the video does not provide evidence that something nefarious is going on here.
As a technical matter, unaccompanied children are undocumented immigrants. But that still doesn’t excuse reporting or claims by politicians that suggest these “illegal immigrants” are being shipped across the country under the cover of darkness in potential violation of the law. Rather, the law requires that these children be released from custody and placed with someone who will care for them. Mixing them up with ICE detainees — who are being shipped from one detention facility to another — only confuses matters.
The Trump administration also operated such flights of unaccompanied children. The only difference may be that there are more under Biden — and that he’s a Democrat.We will keep our eye on the political rhetoric surrounding this issue — and the administration’s response — to see if Pinocchio ratings are merited in the future.There are plenty of non citizens that do have jobs and even pay taxes. And mandates would apply to them. Same standards as American citizens. How do you suggest the administration enforce a mandate on unauthorized immigrants and refugees already in the country? How would enforcing a mandate at the border crossings work on non citizens already here? That doesn't even make sense. Oh, I won’t watch Fox either. I do look at conservative Twitter to see what the latest eyebrow-raising freakout is all about. It’s much less painless. That’s how I feel about cnn, msnbc, and the rest. and if the pseudo administration wasn’t shipping the illegals all over the country, there would be much more control and enforcement. |
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Post by sideways on Feb 16, 2022 1:53:30 GMT
And which President led the vaccination effort?
Which president had no distribution plans and got vaccinated in secret?Did you actually read the article? It makes a good case that a better comparison instead of raw numbers is to compare each president to Europe and their death tolls during the same time frame. Trump led it. biden. Keep proving your stupidity. TFG had no plan whatsoever to get vaccines into arms. None. Zero. Zilch. Every dose of the vaccine that Biden got was televised, you dolt. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 2:25:20 GMT
Oh, I won’t watch Fox either. I do look at conservative Twitter to see what the latest eyebrow-raising freakout is all about. It’s much less painless. That’s how I feel about cnn, msnbc, and the rest. and if the pseudo administration wasn’t shipping the illegals all over the country, there would be much more control and enforcement. pseudo administration?? Are you suggesting that President Biden didn't win the election? Even Fox acknowledges that he won. Did you bother to read the article? Just as the Trump administration did, the Biden administration is following the laws regarding immigrants and refugees. Adults over the age of 17 are flown to detention centers by ICE. Unaccompanied minors are flown by HHS to relatives and sponsors. The Biden administration is not shipping anyone anywhere. They are unaccompanied children, immigrants and refugees, not cargo to be shipped around the country. Your words to dehumanize them are offensive and racist. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 2:39:12 GMT
NY Post, owned by Rupert Murdoch, essentially a tabloid and decidedly right leaning, and an opinion piece in a local newspaper is hardly evidence. There are a lot of falsehoods and misinformation in both of those links. Try again. mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-york-post/All of the links I provided are mostly neutral and the Wall Street Journal leans right with their opinions. Migrants and refugees are eligible for the covid vaccine, regardless of legal status. Anyone applying to immigrate is required to get the vaccine, with the exception of children not yet eligible and anyone with a medical condition that can't get the vaccine. www.npr.org/2021/09/15/1037410464/us-immigrant-visa-applicant-coronavirus-covid-vaccinePeople applying to immigrate to the U.S. will have to show they've been vaccinated against COVID-19 as part of a required medical exam, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services says. The new policy takes effect on Oct. 1.www.uscis.gov/newsroom/alerts/covid-19-vaccination-required-for-immigration-medical-examinationswww.axios.com/white-house-vaccine-mandate-migrants-f596f9c6-6a7b-49c6-9ad8-2bb03e596ab5.htmlIf you're going to suggest that migrants and refugees should be required to get vaccinated, I can't wait to hear you argue against mandates at the same time. I support mandates and agree with requiring migrants and refugees to get vaccinated, with a couple of conditions. They should be allowed to discuss the vaccine with a trusted medical provider in their native language. And they should not be singled out. As part of broader mandates with those conditions, I'm OK with that. For pixiechick - not a strawman argument. All along I said anyone applying to immigrate. I might not have used the words green card applicants, but both descriptions refer to the same group of people. Again, you're the one with a false premise by posting a link to a detention center that holds an entirely different group of people. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 2:43:42 GMT
I stand by my statement. Green card applicants are required to have the covid vaccine. My understanding of detention facilities is that they are for people waiting for their requests to be admitted or for asylum to be heard. If you are admitted or granted asylum, you can apply for a green card after being here for a year. Therefore, it seems unlikely that anyone in a detention facility is applying for a green card. There is certainly room for improvement in vaccinations at detention centers. Detainees should be able to ask health care professionals questions about the vaccine in their native language. Are you advocating all detainees should be vaccinated? Just like cindosha, I'd like to see you argue against mandates and argue for requiring all migrants and refugees to be vaccinated at the same time. THIS is the first place in the thread green cards got brought up. YOU introduced green cards here first. IN RESPONSE TO ME, for the record. So this statement from you is false. Absolute strawman argument on your part. My post was about green card applicants and you responded with a video of detention facilities. Apples and oranges. Not the same thing. False premise. >>> You'll see here the order and context. No response from me with a video in response to your green card gaslighting. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 2:52:05 GMT
For pixiechick - not a strawman argument. All along I said anyone applying to immigrate. I might not have used the words green card applicants, but both descriptions refer to the same group of people. Again, you're the one with a false premise by posting a link to a detention center that holds an entirely different group of people. Okay, let's pretend to go with it, the green card applicant that can't apply until they've been here a year. How does that help those of you who are so afraid of the un-vaxxed if they don't have to get vaxxed until they apply for a green card,but can't apply until a year after being here. You're so afraid of the un-unvaxxed, but you don't mind them being here for a year without having to get the shot and spreading covid everywhere? It is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, after all. Right? |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 3:00:30 GMT
For pixiechick - not a strawman argument. All along I said anyone applying to immigrate. I might not have used the words green card applicants, but both descriptions refer to the same group of people. Again, you're the one with a false premise by posting a link to a detention center that holds an entirely different group of people. Okay, let's pretend to go with it, the green card applicant that can't apply until they've been here a year. How does that help you who are so afraid of the un-vaxxed if they don't have to get vaxxed until they apply for a green card,but can't apply until a year after being here. You're so afraid of the un-unvaxxed, but you don't mind them being here for a year without having to get the shot and spreading covid everywhere? It is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, after all. Right? No, immigrants and refugees are eligible for vaccines after they've been granted admittance or refugee status. You don't need a green card to get a vaccine, as we've said multiple times in this thread. You're still suggesting immigrants and refugees should be singled out for a vaccine mandate? |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 3:04:19 GMT
I stand by my statement. Green card applicants are required to have the covid vaccine. My understanding of detention facilities is that they are for people waiting for their requests to be admitted or for asylum to be heard. If you are admitted or granted asylum, you can apply for a green card after being here for a year. Therefore, it seems unlikely that anyone in a detention facility is applying for a green card. There is certainly room for improvement in vaccinations at detention centers. Detainees should be able to ask health care professionals questions about the vaccine in their native language. Are you advocating all detainees should be vaccinated? Just like cindosha, I'd like to see you argue against mandates and argue for requiring all migrants and refugees to be vaccinated at the same time. THIS is the first place in the thread green cards got brought up. YOU introduced green cards here first. IN RESPONSE TO ME, for the record. So this statement from you is false. Absolute strawman argument on your part. My post was about green card applicants and you responded with a video of detention facilities. Apples and oranges. Not the same thing. False premise. >>> You'll see here the order and context. No response from me with a video in response to your green card gaslighting.No gaslighting or strawman argument. Different words but the same group of people. Immigrants and refugees applying for citizenship are green card applicants. Same group of people. And no pretending either. I quoted my exact post for you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2022 3:18:01 GMT
aj2hall you are way too smart to be arguing with idiots. They don't want to learn. They don't care what you have to say. They want to have the last word even if it's nonsense. They like to push buttons and get reactions. That's their end goal. It's as simple and shallow as trump's gray matter in his head.
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 3:30:08 GMT
aj2hall you are way too smart to be arguing with idiots. They don't want to learn. They don't care what you have to say. They want to have the last word even if it's nonsense. They like to push buttons and get reactions. That's their end goal. It's as simple and shallow as trump's gray matter in his head. I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2022 3:40:04 GMT
Sealioning sounds a lot like the tactics that most narcissists use. Interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2022 3:44:19 GMT
aj2hall you are way too smart to be arguing with idiots. They don't want to learn. They don't care what you have to say. They want to have the last word even if it's nonsense. They like to push buttons and get reactions. That's their end goal. It's as simple and shallow as trump's gray matter in his head. I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior.And I get what you are saying. We are all tired of it. But think about it. Why do they come here in our "echo chamber" and go on an on about their bs faux news misinformation? It definitely isn't to enlighten us. It's just to agitate and own the libs. We see it time and time again on here. I would save your energy for those rare peas who actually do want to have a mature conversation. |
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Post by Skellinton on Feb 16, 2022 5:53:04 GMT
I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior.And I get what you are saying. We are all tired of it. But think about it. Why do they come here in our "echo chamber" and go on an on about their bs faux news misinformation? It definitely isn't to enlighten us. It's just to agitate and own the libs. We see it time and time again on here. I would save your energy for those rare peas who actually do want to have a mature conversation. I agree, also the ignore feature is fabulous! And you know that ignoring them is the thing they would hate the most. They get some weird perverse pleasure out of the endues arguing, why give then what they so desperately crave? They have no power so it isn’t like ignoring them is going to enable then to grow unchecked. They certainly aren’t changing anyone’s mind here. Let them prattle off to each other and they can get their jollies off by liking each other’s posts and spewing their nonsense to each other while the rest of us have actual discussions and learn from each other. Tryst me, you won’t miss a thing by putting them on ignore. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 16, 2022 6:52:03 GMT
Ignore don't work on my phone, but that's ok!
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 14:01:43 GMT
aj2hall you are way too smart to be arguing with idiots. They don't want to learn. They don't care what you have to say. They want to have the last word even if it's nonsense. They like to push buttons and get reactions. That's their end goal. It's as simple and shallow as trump's gray matter in his head. I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior.Democrats say all the same things you just mentioned about the republicans!!! Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. The only thing I said was that the people coming here illegally were being shipped around the country and are mostly not vaccinated. I never dehumanized anyone. You're the one who used that term! |
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 14:03:45 GMT
I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior.And I get what you are saying. We are all tired of it. But think about it. Why do they come here in our "echo chamber" and go on an on about their bs faux news misinformation? It definitely isn't to enlighten us. It's just to agitate and own the libs. We see it time and time again on here. I would save your energy for those rare peas who actually do want to have a mature conversation. Do you think you own this board? Maybe you should make it a 'left leaning democratic board' only. Then we won't bother posting on it. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 19:06:58 GMT
If you are looking for someone to comment on the “potentially” Covid infected foreigners sitting at our borders ( which I am assuming you are referring to the trucker PROTEST), may I direct your attention to the over ONE MILLION illegals (thousands that are most likely Covid infected) pouring over our southern border and being shipped all over the country in droves. Yep, I’m pretty pissed about that!!! So there you go. How many times do you need to be told immigrants and migrants are NOT spreading covid? People coming here legally have to be vaccinated. And the rates of covid are the same or higher in border states compared to migrants. I know for a fact that peas have provided links to articles and evidence that immigrants and migrants are not spreading covid. Despite that, you keep repeating false information. More importantly, you ignored the racist part. Unvaccinated white truckers (who are more likely to spread covid) on the border are OK, let them come in. But, Hispanics fleeing violence and poverty are not welcome eta - I changed my post to make it more clear. I refuse to use your words to dehumanize people. Cindosha was talking about people coming through the border ILlegally. YOU changed that to people coming here legally. YOU changed the discussion from "apples to oranges" and THEN labeled any response to you as a "false premise". Do you have a REAL reason for doing that? YOU are creating the long drawn out idiocy on these posts when YOU continue to do stuff like that. YOU are one not having "a discussion in good faith". If you hate that so much, STOP doing it. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 19:08:09 GMT
Okay, let's pretend to go with it, the green card applicant that can't apply until they've been here a year. How does that help you who are so afraid of the un-vaxxed if they don't have to get vaxxed until they apply for a green card,but can't apply until a year after being here. You're so afraid of the un-unvaxxed, but you don't mind them being here for a year without having to get the shot and spreading covid everywhere? It is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, after all. Right? No, immigrants and refugees are eligible for vaccines after they've been granted admittance or refugee status. You don't need a green card to get a vaccine, as we've said multiple times in this thread. You're still suggesting immigrants and refugees should be singled out for a vaccine mandate? That's what I'm saying... you don't NEED a green card to get vaccinated, but they are not MANDATED to get vaccinated until they get one and they are not eligible to get the green card for a whole year. So there's a whole year of them possibly moving around the country unvaccinated. THAT'S what I'm saying. No, I'm not suggesting immigrants and refugees should be singled out for a vaccine mandate. What i AM saying is the mandates are what YOU believe in and yet, you DON'T have a problem with possibly millions of people wandering around possibly infecting everyone - IF they've come here illegally. Why is that? |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 19:10:57 GMT
Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. What's so astounding here, is you lack even an ounce of self awareness when you complain about someone "dehumanizing" anyone -in the same post where you repeatedly dehumanize others. Just as you have in other posts. But think about it. Why do they come here in our "echo chamber" and go on an on about their bs faux news misinformation? It definitely isn't to enlighten us. It's just to agitate and own the libs. We see it time and time again on here. I would save your energy for those rare peas who actually do want to have a mature conversation. No, I actually come here to offer another viewpoint. If it agitates you to hear other viewpoints, that's your affliction, not me doing anything wrong. And you know that ignoring them is the thing they would hate the most. No, I wouldn't. Please DO ignore me. Put me on ignore if that's the only way you can. I absolutely don't want to talk to anyone that doesn't want to hear from me. |
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Post by sideways on Feb 16, 2022 19:20:16 GMT
Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words. What's so astounding here, is you lack even an ounce of self awareness when you complain about someone "dehumanizing" anyone -in the same post where you repeatedly dehumanize others. Just as you have in other posts. You really don’t know the difference between treating someone based on their actions here and dehumanizing someone just because they exist and came here seeking a better life? |
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 19:37:52 GMT
What's so astounding here, is you lack even an ounce of self awareness when you complain about someone "dehumanizing" anyone -in the same post where you repeatedly dehumanize others. Just as you have in other posts. You really don’t know the difference between treating someone based on their actions here and dehumanizing someone just because they exist and came here seeking a better life? Perhaps you should go back and read ALL of the posts that I responded to. And then go back and read YOUR responses to my posts and we can have a discussion about dehumanizing someone (me). |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 16, 2022 19:39:49 GMT
What's so astounding here, is you lack even an ounce of self awareness when you complain about someone "dehumanizing" anyone -in the same post where you repeatedly dehumanize others. Just as you have in other posts. You really don’t know the difference between treating someone based on their actions here and dehumanizing someone just because they exist and came here seeking a better life? You really don't realize that the reason she calls them illegal is also because of their actions? Doesn't make it right, but neither does your justification for dehumanizing anyone personally on here. You really don't realize justification for dehumanizing someone doesn't make it okay? |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 16, 2022 20:09:09 GMT
You really don’t know the difference between treating someone based on their actions here and dehumanizing someone just because they exist and came here seeking a better life? You really don't realize that the reason she calls them illegal is also because of their actions? Doesn't make it right, but neither does your justification for dehumanizing anyone personally on here. You really don't realize justification for dehumanizing someone doesn't make it okay? Regardless of their legal status or actions, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Referring to immigrants and migrants strictly by their legal status - that word alone - is not OK. The phrase "shipping them" like they're cargo is also unacceptable. The phrase "China virus" is also unacceptable. eta - My apologies. I thought she used the word alien but it was in a letter to President Biden from Elise Stefanik. |
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Post by MichyM on Feb 16, 2022 20:41:14 GMT
aj2hall you are way too smart to be arguing with idiots. They don't want to learn. They don't care what you have to say. They want to have the last word even if it's nonsense. They like to push buttons and get reactions. That's their end goal. It's as simple and shallow as trump's gray matter in his head. I know. I'm just in a mood today. And I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative and using false descriptions like socialism, communism, marxism etc to scare people who are evidently too dumb to know what those words actually mean. I'm tired of Republicans controlling the narrative about the economy. I'm tired of Republicans like Peter Doucy with their false premises, false comparisons, false equivalencies etc. And I'm really tired of Fox and the damage they're causing with their falsehoods and divisiveness. Also zero tolerance for cindosha who continues to dehumanize immigrants and refugees with her words.You're absolutely right, though. All of them are arguing in bad faith. And another pea (Lucyg?) was right when she accused them of sealioning. I'm sure one of the conservatives will turn it around and accuse me of bullying again, but it's an accurate description. www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trollingSealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior.At the point where she called people, real live actual PEOPLE, with hopes and dreams for a better life "illegals" is when my skin began to seriously crawl. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, understand why people do that. To me if just proves how low some will go to "score points" and is disgusting and shameful. And that is my only contribution to all the nonsense in this thread. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 16, 2022 21:48:40 GMT
You really don't realize that the reason she calls them illegal is also because of their actions? Doesn't make it right, but neither does your justification for dehumanizing anyone personally on here. You really don't realize justification for dehumanizing someone doesn't make it okay? Regardless of their legal status or actions, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Referring to immigrants and migrants strictly by their legal status - that word alone - is not OK. Nor is referring to people as aliens. The phrase "shipping them" like they're cargo is also unacceptable. I cannot even tell you how much I detest the term ‘alien’ for any type of immigrant or refugee. Yes, I realize it’s an old terminology word, intended by USCIS to covey the 7th meaning.  But it’s more often used in the second instance, in a disparaging and offensive way, as exampled in this thread. 😒 In 2022, surely we can do better than a term like that? Even USCIS thinks so. www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/hamedaleaziz/alien-policy-manual-uscis-bidenwww.npr.org/2021/04/19/988789487/immigration-agencies-ordered-not-to-use-term-illegal-alien-under-new-biden-policAnd with that I’m done on this thread. Despite having both of them blocked, I still have to see bits of their utter venom and gaslighting every. single. time someone quotes them, because Tapatalk doesn’t block out the quoted stuff, unfortunately. And it’s so constant and unrelenting, it’s really angering me beyond healthy anger now, and I have a pretty damn thick skin. 😒 |
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Post by cindosha on Feb 16, 2022 21:50:51 GMT
Regardless of their legal status or actions, they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Referring to immigrants and migrants strictly by their legal status - that word alone - is not OK. Nor is referring to people as aliens. The phrase "shipping them" like they're cargo is also unacceptable. I cannot even tell you how much I detest the term ‘alien’ for any type of immigrant or refugee. Yes, I realize it’s an old terminology word, intended by USCIS to covey the 7th meaning. But it’s more often used in the second instance, in a disparaging and offensive way, as exampled in this thread. 😒 In 2022, surely we can do better than a term like that? Even USCIS thinks so. www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/hamedaleaziz/alien-policy-manual-uscis-bidenwww.npr.org/2021/04/19/988789487/immigration-agencies-ordered-not-to-use-term-illegal-alien-under-new-biden-policAnd with that I’m done on this thread. Despite having both of them blocked, I still have to see bits of their utter venom and gaslighting every. single. time someone quotes them, because Tapatalk doesn’t block out the quoted stuff, unfortunately. And it’s so constant and unrelenting, it’s really angering me beyond healthy anger now, and I have a pretty damn thick skin. 😒 Then be pissed at AJ. She’s the one they used that term. Not me. |
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Post by Skellinton on Feb 16, 2022 22:01:02 GMT
sassyangel The lying liars who lie are blocked for me, even when quoted. I am sorry they aren’t for you, that is really frustrating. I will admit I don’t generally read the posts where they are even quoted because even that is annoying. I don’t mean to sound sanctimonious, but I just seems so futile and downright silly to even respond to them. They have no intention of really reading what is said to them and clearly they get their jollies from people responding. I myself don’t see he point in giving them what they want. They are not responding in good faith and don’t contribute anywhere else on this board, so why bother trying to get them to change their mind?
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