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Post by tealpaperowl on Mar 24, 2022 18:06:23 GMT
That is crazy! I'll just buy my dies from Aliexpress. I'm not paying $50 for 4 basic dies I looked and aliexpress has that stamp and die. I’m hesitant to buy it as I don’t know the quality. I know I won’t be getting it from SSS for that price. Nevermind
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Post by twillerbee on Mar 25, 2022 5:25:11 GMT
That is crazy expensive. I like alot of their dies but always stay away from buying due to high pricing.
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Post by wendifful on Mar 25, 2022 7:19:17 GMT
So I have some thoughts on this, but before I start, let me say that I also think $50 for this die set is way overpriced, so this is not refuting anyone's point, just adding additional context. And I don't have any insider info, this is just the ramblings of a retail/printing nerd. I've also been somewhat flabbergasted by their coordinating die prices and spent some time thinking about how their pricing works, because if the price was just based on how much metal is used, then they have plenty of other dies that seem to use a bigger portion of metal but are cheaper (like their cover plates). I think they price coordinating dies (NOT standalone) high for two reasons: 1) there's a lower demand for them as opposed to standalone dies and 2) the dies are basically useless without the stamp set, so if lots of people buy the stamp and skip the die, they're left with an expensive investment on their hand that they basically can't give away. (I've seen SSS coordinating dies go on sale/clearance for only 99 cents very often, once the stamp set is sold out.) So basically Simon is hoping that their investment in these dies will pay off, otherwise it's a loss. Therefore, they order them in much smaller quantities than standalone dies. In general when it comes to production, the more you make of something, the cheaper it is, so the inverse is also true: smaller quantities cost more to produce. I took a class on print media in college and there, we talked about why/when you'd use a traditional offset/CMYK press (printing newspapers/magazines/etc) versus an inkjet (aka "digital" printer). Although printing on a CMYK press is much cheaper per sheet for the ink, a huge part of the cost is setting up the presses for each run. It takes time to make sure the press is aligned correctly and that the files are print-ready. Also, each page/design needs to be transformed into a plate to transfer the ink (sort of like a stamp, actually). So once you take all this into account, offset printing IS cheaper, but ONLY for large quantities of items. Otherwise, something like digital printing ends up being more economical. Anyway, I've also done some research into the chemical etching process and the way it seems to work is that a sheet of metal is coated in a UV sensitive film, exposed to light with the design as a template, which then removes the lamination from the areas that were exposed, then exposed to chemicals that etch away the uncoated areas, thus creating the metal design. (See graphic below for more info.) The one part I can't seem to find info on how exactly the photo tool transfers the artwork. It seems to possibly be a negative like a photo, but that part is slightly unclear, so I have to wonder if, like an offset press, the creation of this initial "plate"/photo tool is costly. I also wonder if the intricacy of the coordinating dies plays a part. Yes, there are lots of intricate standalone dies out there, but they tend to be more geometric type shapes, whereas coordinating dies have lots of twists and turns and odd corners. So to sum up, I'm not sure how much all of this plays into Simon's pricing. But it's interesting to think about!
And on a somewhat separate but equally relevant note… And while again, I think $50 for these dies is crazy expensive, I also try to keep in mind why and how overseas products are so much cheaper, without even getting into the intellectual property/copying debate. For example, it has been alleged that Uighurs have been forced to work in factories in reeducation camps for extremely low wages. When something is dirt cheap, there is usually a reason. I'm not saying this to lecture others, because I think it's almost impossible to avoid items made in China. But to be honest, while I'll buy something like Pinkfresh dies (made in China), I've personally never been able to hit the buy button on Ali Express dies, even though logically I know it’s probably not much different. This is a personal choice for every consumer and I'm not shaming anyone, because everyone has to do what they are comfortable with and able to afford, but I do think it's important to have these conversations, even just with yourself. I remain hopeful that there is some sort of compromise that can be struck between Ali Express prices and SSS prices, where everyone gets paid fairly and consumers are happy too. I don't know how that's accomplished, but hopefully people much smarter than me can figure it out because it affects all our purchases, not just crafts, and there’s no easy answer.
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Post by katieanna on Mar 25, 2022 17:10:54 GMT
I was going through my notifications and saw this. Earlier today, I did a search for some Brilliance ink refills. SSS was more expensive than anyplace else. What's going on over there, or are those the kinds of prices we'll be looking at in the not-so-distant future with everything that's going on? Geez, I hope not!!! ETA: Just read your post wendifull. Definitely something to think about. Thanks for taking the time to post.
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Post by cbet on Mar 25, 2022 18:49:43 GMT
The only time I can think of paying a lot of money for dies, was when Spellbinders was really the only thin dies in the game (Sizzix did thick steel rule dies, not sure when they started doing thin dies). I remember getting the full sets of all the basic shapes and the coordinating scalloped versions like $75 each set. I have circles, squares, rectangles, ovals and hearts. I never use them and really would be okay getting rid of them, but then I think of the cost I paid and I keep them. Ugh! Ahhh, but think about it (I have several of those full sets as well): Each of those full sets was made up of 4 smaller sets. You would have set one of the main shape, each shape leaving a 1/4" mat for the next smaller. Then set two, which if you used it with set one, gave you a 1/8" mat. Ditto with the scallop sets. And each of those sets had 5 or 6 nesting shapes. So for $75, you were getting 4 sets of dies (and they did have them available as individual sets). Which is less than $20 a set. Not really that bad, pricing wise, for something that no one else had available. And they were pretty much all good, basic shapes that you could expect to use a lot. And when they came out with new border treatments, they were sized to work with the basic sets that you probably already had. Sigh . . . good times.
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Post by cbet on Mar 25, 2022 19:09:15 GMT
And on a somewhat separate but equally relevant note… And while again, I think $50 for these dies is crazy expensive, I also try to keep in mind why and how overseas products are so much cheaper, without even getting into the intellectual property/copying debate. For example, it has been alleged that Uighurs have been forced to work in factories in reeducation camps for extremely low wages. When something is dirt cheap, there is usually a reason. I'm not saying this to lecture others, because I think it's almost impossible to avoid items made in China. But to be honest, while I'll buy something like Pinkfresh dies (made in China), I've personally never been able to hit the buy button on Ali Express dies, even though logically I know it’s probably not much different. This is a personal choice for every consumer and I'm not shaming anyone, because everyone has to do what they are comfortable with and able to afford, but I do think it's important to have these conversations, even just with yourself. I remain hopeful that there is some sort of compromise that can be struck between Ali Express prices and SSS prices, where everyone gets paid fairly and consumers are happy too. I don't know how that's accomplished, but hopefully people much smarter than me can figure it out because it affects all our purchases, not just crafts, and there’s no easy answer. Most US companies' dies are made in China now. I know that Gina K said that she tried sourcing them from US companies, but she couldn't get a company that was able to take on that work. Not sure if it wasn't enough volume per design, or what - but China was really her only option. It puzzles me, though, that Gina Marie Designs (online business, but I believe she has a physical shop as well) can sell a set of nesting dies or a coverplate die for $10 (it's pretty hard to find any of her sets that cost more than $10), but the other businesses are charging $20-$30 for a comparable product. Having them manufactured in the US would explain it, but they're not making them in the US. And $50 is WAY too much for that set. They aren't intricate and it would be easy to cut those stamps by hand, but the stamp designs themselves aren't even anything special. $75 for the stamp/die set? Gina K's kits are only $70 and include 2 6x8 stamp sets with dies and usually a smaller stamp set or a stencil or a standalone die AND cardstock. I'm not saying that's cheap, but compare the value.
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Post by wendifful on Mar 25, 2022 21:50:21 GMT
I know that Gina K said that she tried sourcing them from US companies, but she couldn't get a company that was able to take on that work. Not sure if it wasn't enough volume per design, or what - but China was really her only option.Yes, definitely, this is what I mean by everyone has to make tough choices, no matter what. I feel like COVID, especially in the beginning, really made it clear that commerce is truly global these days. In the early days of the pandemic, I spent a lot of time online, obsessively reading everything about the pandemic and how different companies were handling it. I remember that on JoAnn social media, someone complained about their fabric stock being low, so they should manufacture in the US; and JoAnn replied and said that the manufacturing infrastructure just isn't there in the US for the large quantities of fabric they require. The "easy" answer is to talk about the golden days of US manufacturing and advocate for a return to everything being made domestically, but I don't think it's that simple anymore. Products in general are a lot more complicated with the rise of technology, so what qualifies something as made in the US? If 50% of the product is assembled in foreign countries and added to the other 50% in the US, does that still qualify as US made? I don't know the answer to that, but I do think it's easier to talk about past "glory days" than figure out how to live in a new, global economy. (I'm not saying you're doing this btw, just that it seems that it's an argument lots of people like to go to.) Also as a bit of an aside, and to get a bit political here, politicians often talk about bringing manufacturing back because it was a steady blue collar job with benefits and good wages that didn't require a degree or extensive training. But as someone who worked retail for 15 years, I am always mystified that people don't understand that retail IS the new manufacturing, at least in the sense of it not requiring a degree or training. For some reason, retail and service jobs are treated like they're only fit for teenagers, when there's no way stores could be staffed by that few people, especially when school is in session. In reality, retail is HARD, both physically and mentally, and I think it's time it should be treated as a legitimate career, not denigrated as low skill. I think that even if US manufacturing were still as prevalent today as it were in the 50s, we'd find that companies would be finding ways to cut employee costs, like not keeping up with COL increases, demoting people to part time so they don't get benefits, and running a factory on a skeleton crew. If you think about it, to be even more direct, being a warehouse worker is a pretty good modern correlation to working in a factory, and yet we've seen that warehouse workers (especially Amazon) are worked inhumanely and paid very little. We act like because the type of job has changed, the respect and pay these people deserve has changed too, when it actually hasn't. In reality, what's changed is the relentless pursuit of company/individual profit at the expense of many.
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Post by zima on Mar 25, 2022 22:05:45 GMT
For some reason, retail and service jobs are treated like they're only fit for teenagers, when there's no way stores could be staffed by that few people, especially when school is in session. In reality, retail is HARD, both physically and mentally, and I think it's time it should be treated as a legitimate career, not denigrated as low skill. Because retail, unlike old-school mfg jobs, have terrible pay, benefits and schedules compared to punch press operators, die setters, etc of old. In reality, what's changed is the relentless pursuit of company/individual profit at the expense of many. Yeah. That. It used to be that you didn't need a college degree or even trade school to get a good pay, good benefits, good hours job. Now you do. Not only that, but companies used to pay for your training on-the-job. Now they want the local community college to train their skilled workers (so the taxpayer can foot the bill, instead of the company) and they still don't want to give them reasonable job security. If they can make more money by offshoring or automating those jobs, they will do it. Capitalism 101. Capital has no loyalty except to itself.
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lesley
Drama Llama
My best friend Turriff, desperately missed.
Posts: 7,320
Location: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland
Jul 6, 2014 21:50:44 GMT
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Post by lesley on Mar 27, 2022 21:34:15 GMT
Yes, it’s these prices and ridiculous shipping costs that made me buy this set from Ali Express for £10 (around $13). SSS would have charged me $90 for the same items. 😱
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Post by oldgardengirl on Mar 29, 2022 19:14:29 GMT
I used to design dies for a manufacturer in the industry and these prices are in line with low quantity made in USA dies. The fewer you purchase the higher the cost per and if you buy really small numbers it can result in a price like this.
Dies are priced based on type of metal and how much of it you use, and these don’t look like they could have been manufactured in any way other than side by side (nesting lowers the cost). I do question why it would be necessary to make them out of the stronger metal - why not the super thin metal since they go with a stamp set. That probably would have brought down the cost a lot.
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