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Post by gar on Jul 18, 2022 14:07:56 GMT
Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. He could have just shot out the lock though yes? |
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Post by auntkelly on Jul 18, 2022 14:23:00 GMT
Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. He could have just shot out the lock though yes? This is what the report says: In violation of school policy, no one had locked any of the three exterior doors to the west building of Robb Elementary. As a result, the attacker had unimpeded access to enter. Once inside, the attacker continued into the adjoining Rooms 111 and 112, probably through the door to Room 111, and apparently completely unimpeded. Locking the exterior and interior doors ultimately may not have been enough to stop the attacker from entering the building and classrooms. But had school personnel locked the doors as the school’s policy required, that could have slowed his progress for a few precious minutes—long enough to receive alerts, hide children, and lock doors; and long enough to give police more opportunity to engage and stop the attacker before he could massacre 19 students and two teachers. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 18, 2022 14:27:14 GMT
The teacher who went out to get food thought the door was locking. That is why she put a rock down to hold it ajar. She did remove the rock and must have thought the door was locking ..
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Jul 18, 2022 14:53:26 GMT
I agree that the police response was horrific. However, as I understand the report, there is a good chance many lives would have been saved (despite the despicable police response) if the broken lock everyone knew about had been fixed and the wifi signal within the school had been stronger. How tragic that the PE teacher saw the gunman jump the fence, reported it immediately, but teachers may not have been notified immediately. Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. I hope this is a wake-up call to school administrators that we need to take a serious look at basic safety issues and make basic repairs which will keep our teachers and students somewhat safer. I may be dreaming, but I would like to think that state and federal governments will provide funding for these basic repairs. Those are all things to consider. But if he hadn’t had the gun and a desire to kill people it would have all been prevented. People can’t leave that out. |
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Post by Merge on Jul 18, 2022 15:19:38 GMT
I agree that the police response was horrific. However, as I understand the report, there is a good chance many lives would have been saved (despite the despicable police response) if the broken lock everyone knew about had been fixed and the wifi signal within the school had been stronger. How tragic that the PE teacher saw the gunman jump the fence, reported it immediately, but teachers may not have been notified immediately. Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. I hope this is a wake-up call to school administrators that we need to take a serious look at basic safety issues and make basic repairs which will keep our teachers and students somewhat safer. I may be dreaming, but I would like to think that state and federal governments will provide funding for these basic repairs. In Texas, they will expect those repairs/changes to be made with our existing funding. Our lege believes we are "overfunded" at this point. |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 18, 2022 15:25:28 GMT
this is a related headline: "A year before Uvalde shooting, gunman had threatened women, carried around a dead cat and been nicknamed “school shooter” "
that's a guy who is perfectly fine to buy a gun, right? <eye roll>
"376 law enforcement officers — a force larger than the garrison that defended the Alamo — descended upon the school in a chaotic, uncoordinated scene that lasted for more than an hour. The group was devoid of clear leadership, basic communications and sufficient urgency to take down the gunman, the report says...."
but by all means, let's make it all about the doors at the school not being locked.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Jul 18, 2022 15:30:41 GMT
Watching some of the video and it sounds like they did know there were children alive in room 12. It looks like the message was passed on to the police men just standing outside in the hall. I only saw a small part but the message is passed on then shots were fired and they continue trying to talk to him on the phone/yelling at him. I couldn’t watch after that.
But blame it on a broken lock and low fence. Seriously he would have shot kids no matter what. You can shoot kids on a playground. The first school shooting was from across the street of the school she lived in the house across the street.
Almost 400 police and yet …
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Post by gar on Jul 18, 2022 15:50:15 GMT
He could have just shot out the lock though yes? This is what the report says: In violation of school policy, no one had locked any of the three exterior doors to the west building of Robb Elementary. As a result, the attacker had unimpeded access to enter. Once inside, the attacker continued into the adjoining Rooms 111 and 112, probably through the door to Room 111, and apparently completely unimpeded. Locking the exterior and interior doors ultimately may not have been enough to stop the attacker from entering the building and classrooms. But had school personnel locked the doors as the school’s policy required, that could have slowed his progress for a few precious minutes—long enough to receive alerts, hide children, and lock doors; and long enough to give police more opportunity to engage and stop the attacker before he could massacre 19 students and two teachers. I take your point but once inside (potentially just a few moments later) he still had tons of time to find any poor terrified babies and their teachers because the police weren’t rushing to save them anyway, however long they had. |
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 8:27:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2022 15:55:57 GMT
I agree that the police response was horrific. However, as I understand the report, there is a good chance many lives would have been saved (despite the despicable police response) if the broken lock everyone knew about had been fixed and the wifi signal within the school had been stronger. How tragic that the PE teacher saw the gunman jump the fence, reported it immediately, but teachers may not have been notified immediately. Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. I hope this is a wake-up call to school administrators that we need to take a serious look at basic safety issues and make basic repairs which will keep our teachers and students somewhat safer. I may be dreaming, but I would like to think that state and federal governments will provide funding for these basic repairs. Fuck that noise. Want to save lives? Fucking ban AR-15s. |
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Post by auntkelly on Jul 18, 2022 17:10:44 GMT
I agree that the police response was horrific. However, as I understand the report, there is a good chance many lives would have been saved (despite the despicable police response) if the broken lock everyone knew about had been fixed and the wifi signal within the school had been stronger. How tragic that the PE teacher saw the gunman jump the fence, reported it immediately, but teachers may not have been notified immediately. Even worse, a faulty door lock that everyone knew about gave the gunman easy access to his victims. I hope this is a wake-up call to school administrators that we need to take a serious look at basic safety issues and make basic repairs which will keep our teachers and students somewhat safer. I may be dreaming, but I would like to think that state and federal governments will provide funding for these basic repairs. Those are all things to consider. But if he hadn’t had the gun and a desire to kill people it would have all been prevented. People can’t leave that out. Absolutely. I'm all for reforming our gun laws. I think the response by the police was horrific. I think we have a mental health crisis in this country which needs to be addressed. However, I also think teachers and students should have the tiny bit of added protection that locked doors and a working public address system offers. My aunt is 96 years' old. In 1959 her second grade class at Poe Elementary in Houston, Texas was playing on the playground when a man approached her holding a brief case which he claimed contained a bomb. He eventually detonated the bomb, killing six people. My aunt survived, and I don't think she was ever given enough credit for how many of her students she got out of harm's way with her quick and calm thinking, but it was by far the worst thing that ever happened to her, and I know it haunted her. I don't wish that kind of trauma on anyone. |
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Dani-Mani on Jul 18, 2022 18:05:52 GMT
Watching some of the video and it sounds like they did know there were children alive in room 12. It looks like the message was passed on to the police men just standing outside in the hall. I only saw a small part but the message is passed on then shots were fired and they continue trying to talk to him on the phone/yelling at him. I couldn’t watch after that. But blame it on a broken lock and low fence. Seriously he would have shot kids no matter what. You can shoot kids on a playground. The first school shooting was from across the street of the school she lived in the house across the street. Almost 400 police and yet … Yes they knew. Officer Ruiz’s wife had informed them his wife was alive but shot and they were foe yelling several 911 calls. They were all aware there were people alive. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jul 18, 2022 18:11:47 GMT
There is no excuse and there are no words.
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Rhondito
Pearl Clutcher
MississipPea
Posts: 4,797
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Post by Rhondito on Jul 18, 2022 18:44:42 GMT
Well, there are 376 officers who have to try to sleep at night with their (in)actions and 21 deaths on their conscience. I hope at the very least their shame drives them insane and ruins their lives. Those poor families have to live a never ending nightmare; the ones who did nothing to stop it should too.
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Post by Scrapper100 on Jul 18, 2022 18:51:10 GMT
Watching some of the video and it sounds like they did know there were children alive in room 12. It looks like the message was passed on to the police men just standing outside in the hall. I only saw a small part but the message is passed on then shots were fired and they continue trying to talk to him on the phone/yelling at him. I couldn’t watch after that. But blame it on a broken lock and low fence. Seriously he would have shot kids no matter what. You can shoot kids on a playground. The first school shooting was from across the street of the school she lived in the house across the street. Almost 400 police and yet … Yes they knew. Officer Ruiz’s wife had informed them his wife was alive but shot and they were foe yelling several 911 calls. They were all aware there were people alive. I thought it was so strange that they said they intentionally didn’t have radios on them you wouldn’t think they would want to be able to get info as quickly as possible. I haven’t been around a lot of law enforcement but it seems they always have them on them. If you forget if you would think someone else would have them or would send someone to get one. For the decision maker to be so uninformed seems odd and now we know he was full of {#^%>. I can’t believe there were almost 400 officers there and just standing around. If it was 50 that would seem strange. |
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Post by sabrinae on Jul 18, 2022 20:51:58 GMT
He could have just shot out the lock though yes? This is what the report says: In violation of school policy, no one had locked any of the three exterior doors to the west building of Robb Elementary. As a result, the attacker had unimpeded access to enter. Once inside, the attacker continued into the adjoining Rooms 111 and 112, probably through the door to Room 111, and apparently completely unimpeded. Locking the exterior and interior doors ultimately may not have been enough to stop the attacker from entering the building and classrooms. But had school personnel locked the doors as the school’s policy required, that could have slowed his progress for a few precious minutes—long enough to receive alerts, hide children, and lock doors; and long enough to give police more opportunity to engage and stop the attacker before he could massacre 19 students and two teachers. There were 376 officers who waited and waited and waited to engage the shooter. The few seconds or even minutes a locked door would have delayed him, wouldn’t have helped any of those children or teachers. Law enforcement mad a decision not to engage. |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jul 19, 2022 15:35:56 GMT
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Post by birukitty on Jul 19, 2022 18:01:46 GMT
I haven't had a chance to comment on this post since it was written due to my migraines but I did get a chance to talk to my father about it last night. We both agreed that there was no excuse for those 376 officers to stand outside in a hallway refusing to engage for over an hour while children and teachers were being slaughtered. I said every single one should lose their jobs and never be able to work in law enforcement again. He said, "No it should go further than that. They should be charge with criminally negligent homicide". I said, "You are absolutely right! Every single one of them!"
Now I don't know if every single one of them can be changed with criminally negligent homicide (21 counts for each person murdered) but that is what I would like to see happen. I don't know the law (my field is different). I do understand the hierarchy in law enforcement where you have to follow the chain of command, but isn't it true that when it's a case of life and death and your superior is basically doing absolutely nothing to help, you as an officer have an obligation to step up and do what you can?
I'm not forgetting who is responsible for the murder of these children and teachers, but anyone who knows me knows I'm all for stricter gun control. Being able to buy an AR style rifle and but not being able to buy a beer when you're 18 is insane in my opinion!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jul 26, 2022 3:57:18 GMT
MSNBC the principal of ROBB Elementary has been suspended with pay.
Maybe about the doors not locking.. I don't know why?
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Post by sabrinae on Jul 26, 2022 14:17:26 GMT
MSNBC the principal of ROBB Elementary has been suspended with pay. Maybe about the doors not locking.. I don't know why? The article I read said it was because there were “security policies“ not followed like the door not to the one classroom having a broken lock. The report is bullshit though because none of the “security policies” would have made a bit of difference in the outcome. What would have made a difference is: a) regulations preventing people like the shooter from accessing guns and b) police doing their job when they respond. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2022 14:19:14 GMT
It's so disappointing that the response to this is clear backpacks, suspending school admin, worrying about locking doors.
It's THE GUNS.
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Jul 26, 2022 14:25:10 GMT
MSNBC the principal of ROBB Elementary has been suspended with pay. Maybe about the doors not locking.. I don't know why? The article I read said it was because there were “security policies“ not followed like the door not to the one classroom having a broken lock. The report is bullshit though because none of the “security policies” would have made a bit of difference in the outcome. What would have made a difference is: a) regulations preventing people like the shooter from accessing guns and b) police doing their job when they respond. outrageous. They are looking hard for a scapegoat. Now they hang this on the principal. |
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Post by librarylady on Jul 26, 2022 14:57:54 GMT
Our paper said it was because she never turned in a work order for the broken door lock.
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dawnnikol
Prolific Pea
'A life without books is a life not lived.' Jay Kristoff
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Sept 21, 2015 18:39:25 GMT
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Post by dawnnikol on Jul 26, 2022 14:59:28 GMT
I didn't realize this was from 2018, but has resurfaced: Tweet![]() |
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pinklady
Drama Llama
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Post by pinklady on Jul 26, 2022 15:04:16 GMT
MSNBC the principal of ROBB Elementary has been suspended with pay. Maybe about the doors not locking.. I don't know why? The cycle is complete. Pin it on the woman rather than the 400 men with guns just standing around. |
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
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Post by kibblesandbits on Jul 26, 2022 15:15:23 GMT
MSNBC the principal of ROBB Elementary has been suspended with pay. Maybe about the doors not locking.. I don't know why? The article I read said it was because there were “security policies“ not followed like the door not to the one classroom having a broken lock. The report is bullshit though because none of the “security policies” would have made a bit of difference in the outcome. What would have made a difference is: a) regulations preventing people like the shooter from accessing guns and b) police doing their job when they respond. Well, in reality had the building been more secure it certainly would have made a difference. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference, but in these circumstances it isn't hard to see that locked doors would have inhibited the shooter. HOWEVER, what I find extremely repugnant about this suspension is that under any other situation, this would not have even garnered a slap on the wrist or an entry into her personnel file. And for that, I disgusted. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 26, 2022 15:21:22 GMT
The article I read said it was because there were “security policies“ not followed like the door not to the one classroom having a broken lock. The report is bullshit though because none of the “security policies” would have made a bit of difference in the outcome. What would have made a difference is: a) regulations preventing people like the shooter from accessing guns and b) police doing their job when they respond. outrageous. They are looking hard for a scapegoat. Now they hang this on the principal. They tried to hang it on the teacher first. Now the principal. It's so shameful the way we treat educators in this country as it is. |
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luckyjune
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,687
Location: In the rainy, rainy WA
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Post by luckyjune on Jul 26, 2022 15:40:15 GMT
Those are all things to consider. But if he hadn’t had the gun and a desire to kill people it would have all been prevented. People can’t leave that out. Absolutely. I'm all for reforming our gun laws. I think the response by the police was horrific. I think we have a mental health crisis in this country which needs to be addressed. However, I also think teachers and students should have the tiny bit of added protection that locked doors and a working public address system offers. My aunt is 96 years' old. In 1959 her second grade class at Poe Elementary in Houston, Texas was playing on the playground when a man approached her holding a brief case which he claimed contained a bomb. He eventually detonated the bomb, killing six people. My aunt survived, and I don't think she was ever given enough credit for how many of her students she got out of harm's way with her quick and calm thinking, but it was by far the worst thing that ever happened to her, and I know it haunted her. I don't wish that kind of trauma on anyone. Here's how the system works: My classroom got into the 80's (very few schools in WA have air conditioning) during the spring and there was zero air circulation. I asked to have it looked at. Maintenance came out, told me they found the problem and "fixed" it. The next afternoon, my classroom was back in the 80s. Lo and behold, along comes covid and good air circulation in classrooms becomes a must. The last year I taught, the temp in my room was beyond pleasant...not a single miserable day! So, all along, the issue was fixable, but no one thought it was important enough to fix it because they were not sitting in a room with 35 bodies during 6th hour when it was 85 degrees in the room. So a broken PA system? Locks that don't work? Not a surprise, at all. We almost had to stage a mutiny to get doors that lock from the inside. Before that, we had to step into the hall to lock our doors, that same hall where an active shooter could be on the hunt. |
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Post by aj2hall on Jul 26, 2022 16:16:30 GMT
The article I read said it was because there were “security policies“ not followed like the door not to the one classroom having a broken lock. The report is bullshit though because none of the “security policies” would have made a bit of difference in the outcome. What would have made a difference is: a) regulations preventing people like the shooter from accessing guns and b) police doing their job when they respond. Well, in reality had the building been more secure it certainly would have made a difference. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference, but in these circumstances it isn't hard to see that locked doors would have inhibited the shooter. HOWEVER, what I find extremely repugnant about this suspension is that under any other situation, this would not have even garnered a slap on the wrist or an entry into her personnel file. And for that, I disgusted. A locked door would only have slowed him down. He had 600 rounds of ammo. Would slowing him down have prevented the tragedy? Unlikely. Would it have saved lives? Impossible to know. We do know with absolute certainty that limiting access to weapons of war saves lives. Too bad that instead of firing the principal we can't fire the politicians that loosened restrictions on guns allowing anyone to carry. The politicians will do everything they can to point the blame at locked doors, principals etc except acknowledge their own responsibility. |
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kibblesandbits
Pearl Clutcher
At the corner of Awesome and Bombdiggity
Posts: 3,305
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Post by kibblesandbits on Jul 26, 2022 16:19:37 GMT
Well, in reality had the building been more secure it certainly would have made a difference. Probably wouldn't have made much of a difference, but in these circumstances it isn't hard to see that locked doors would have inhibited the shooter. HOWEVER, what I find extremely repugnant about this suspension is that under any other situation, this would not have even garnered a slap on the wrist or an entry into her personnel file. And for that, I disgusted. A locked door would only have slowed him down. He had 600 rounds of ammo. Would slowing him down have prevented the tragedy? Unlikely. Would it have saved lives? Impossible to know. We do know with absolute certainty that limiting access to weapons of war saves lives.No argument with that, however that was not the point I was attempting to make. |
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Post by aj2hall on Jul 26, 2022 16:26:47 GMT
A locked door would only have slowed him down. He had 600 rounds of ammo. Would slowing him down have prevented the tragedy? Unlikely. Would it have saved lives? Impossible to know. We do know with absolute certainty that limiting access to weapons of war saves lives.No argument with that, however that was not the point I was attempting to make. It's impossible to know with any degree of certainty what would have happened if the doors had been locked. With 600 rounds of ammo, it seems likely that locked doors would only have slowed him down for a few minutes at most. Talking about locked doors, more secure entrances, hardening targets, etc is a distraction from the real problem. After Columbine, the push has been for more police officers at school. That response has failed miserably at preventing tragedies and addressing the problem. In the last 5-10 years, the focus shifted to secure locks, cameras, active shooter plans etc. We already spend $2.7 billion dollars per year to make schools safer, not including money spent on school resource offers. But it's made very little difference. Texas already tried hardening targets after a 2019 shooting. www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/local/school-shootings-and-campus-safety-industry/The survey responses are consistent with a federally funded 2016 study by Johns Hopkins University that concluded there was “limited and conflicting evidence in the literature on the short- and long-term effectiveness of school safety technology.”www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/250274.pdfwww.texastribune.org/2022/05/26/texas-uvalde-shooting-harden-schools/Texas already “hardened” schools. It didn’t save Uvalde. After the Uvalde mass shooting, GOP leaders are again pushing to boost school security. But similar legislation after a 2018 school shooting has fallen short of its goals, and experts said there’s no evidence such tactics work. “This concept of hardening, the more it has been done, it’s not shown the results,” said Jagdish Khubchandani, a public health professor at New Mexico State University who studies school security practices and their effectiveness.
Khubchandani said the majority of public schools in the United States already implement the security measures most often promoted by public officials, including locked doors to the outside and in classrooms, active-shooter plans and security cameras.
After a review of 18 years of school security measures, Khubchandani and James Price from the University of Toledo did not find any evidence that such tactics or more armed teachers reduced gun violence in schools.
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