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Post by Basket1lady on Oct 27, 2022 23:55:36 GMT
When DS was 11, TSA found not one but two knives in his backpack when we were going through security. He had grabbed his scout backpack because he didn’t want to unload his school backpack. To say that I thought our trip was over was an understatement. The TSA guy was great. Really, really good. “Buddy, is there any way that you have a knife in your backpack? He was kind and respectful and talked to DS so kindly the entire time. We were flying during the Christmas holidays and this guy didn’t need to take the time to be so nice. DS still had a full pat down, chemical tests, X-rays, etc, but it was all done very respectfully. All without knowing that our DS has Asperger’s. DS knew you couldn’t take the knives through security—he had just forgotten that they were in his backpack. If a TSA person had come down on him and ranted and treated him like a criminal, DS would have been absolutely gutted. He would have been traumatized and scared and it would have taken days for him to move on from it. Oh, and TSA gave us envelopes to mail the knives home. They were $10 each, but DS got his knife back that was a gift when he crossed over from Boy Scouts from Weblos. If TSA can evaluate on a case by case basis, why not a school? The 9 year old had no business having a knife at school. But treated appropriately, it could be a big Life Lesson vs expulsion. I can assure you that DS checks his carryon and pockets VERY carefully when he flies now.
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Post by worldwanderer75 on Oct 28, 2022 0:15:55 GMT
I work for SPED in a public school system. I echo what others have said: get an attorney and an advocate. We had a HS SPED student beat a teacher up quite seriously earlier this year. He was back at school a couple days later. I disagreed with that decision. But this is situation is very different. My district would not suspend the student.
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Post by epeanymous on Oct 28, 2022 1:07:58 GMT
Instead of pointing fingers at the parents for not knowing the knife was in the crayon box, let’s remember this is a young boy who now has been kicked out of school. He didn’t hurt anyone with it but now he can’t go back into a classroom that he was doing well in. I am glad his parents got a lawyer and advocate. If he had taken it and hurt someone entirely different story. That’s why zero tolerance doesn’t work in some cases. I don't think it is just about pointing fingers. It is about finding a way forward. The parents have hired a lawyer, it sounds like, and hopefully will be able to get the child back in the school he loves, but any plan for making sure he is successful there is going to involve making sure he is in a position to succeed, and the parents carry that responsibility here.
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Post by christine58 on Oct 28, 2022 1:29:18 GMT
I work for SPED in a public school system. I echo what others have said: get an attorney and an advocate. We had a HS SPED student beat a teacher up quite seriously earlier this year. He was back at school a couple days later. I disagreed with that decision. But this is situation is very different. My district would not suspend the student. If I were that teacher that had been beaten, the police would’ve been called and I would’ve pressed charges.
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Post by auntkelly on Oct 28, 2022 13:05:12 GMT
I’m glad to read the parents hired a lawyer and I hope that a reasonable resolution can be reached.
Playing devil’s advocate, I can understand in this day and age why schools have such strict policies concerning knives at school. If I was the parent of a child in that class, I would expect that the student with the knife would be immediately suspended and not be allowed to return to school until a full investigation had been conducted. I understand that there are going to be cases where kids innocently bring knives and other contraband to school, but I do think each and every case should be investigated thoroughly before the kid who brought the knife is allowed to return to class.. (I’m assuming that the school’s “zero tolerance policy” is a written policy which, despite its name, actually does allow for exceptions to permanent expulsion, but of course I don’t know).
I would be curious to hear the teacher’s version of this story. We only have the mom’s version of the story and it may be 100% accurate. For everyone’s sake, I hope it is. However, after practicing law for many years I know it is human nature to tell a story in a manner that reflects positively on the storyteller and to leave out any details that reflect negatively on the storyteller.
In any case, I hope this matter is resolved quickly and it is found that the child can safely return to class. I hope the other parents and students are understanding.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 28, 2022 13:38:03 GMT
I work for SPED in a public school system. I echo what others have said: get an attorney and an advocate. We had a HS SPED student beat a teacher up quite seriously earlier this year. He was back at school a couple days later. I disagreed with that decision. But this is situation is very different. My district would not suspend the student. Is that because the student had an IEP and the BIP plan that was mentioned earlier? It seems very difficult for students with IEP’s to have adequate consequences for behavior. In some ways that is good, but in other ways not. Seems that the well-being of others is less important than the student with the IEP’s rights.
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Post by Really Red on Oct 28, 2022 13:54:44 GMT
I am sorry OP. First of all, all my (Swiss) kids had pocketknives at a young age. They are literally the gift of choice. My kids were responsible(ish) with them, but we always discovered them in odd places. I did not let my youngest have one at 3yo (when they first started giving them), but by 9yo they all had one along with the requisite Swatch. If my son brought a pocketknife to school by accident (and I really mean by accident), I would expect a consequence. I would not expect him to be expelled. Even most laws talk about "intent," and there appears to be no intent here. putabuttononit - I wonder if there isn't something more going on? Had there been other issues in the past? But if all your facts are 100% correct, it seems wrong. One of my co-workers had a kid who had an IEP and the IEP stated that if he was in a fight, he could not be expelled. Even if he caused it. I was shocked that that was allowed, but I asked around and it sounded like a lot of kids on IEPs had clauses like that built in. I would really talk with an IEP advocate if I were the parents. Maybe the IEP was not crafted correctly. I hope this works out for the little kid. It really, really sucks for him.
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Post by epeanymous on Oct 28, 2022 14:09:33 GMT
I work for SPED in a public school system. I echo what others have said: get an attorney and an advocate. We had a HS SPED student beat a teacher up quite seriously earlier this year. He was back at school a couple days later. I disagreed with that decision. But this is situation is very different. My district would not suspend the student. Is that because the student had an IEP and the BIP plan that was mentioned earlier? It seems very difficult for students with IEP’s to have adequate consequences for behavior. In some ways that is good, but in other ways not. Seems that the well-being of others is less important than the student with the IEP’s rights. There was a very tall, strong kid at my oldest's elementary school who had a behavioral IEP (I would not know the details) who routinely hit, kicked, etc other kids. My own kid came home one day with deep scratches from one of his attacks. It was pretty bad. As far as I could tell, the only consequence the school imposed was calling his parents, and, while they could not share with parents the details, the teachers definitely gave us the impression there were no real options. I felt for the child, but was also super relieved when the family moved out of state.
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Post by nine on Oct 28, 2022 20:56:42 GMT
For those of you that think it’s OK for a 9 yo to have a knife…let’s think this through.
1. Both my boys were Boy Scouts and got their knife safety badge (or whatever it’s called) 2. Boy Scouts start at 12, not 9. So kid is a Cub Scout. There are no knives in Cub Scouts. 3. Is there a logical reason for a child to have a knife in his day-to-day life? I think the answer is no. My husband would let our boys carry knives when camping or sailing, there may be a use for them in these circumstances. In school? No way. 4. Kid brings knife to school = kid gets expelled. Period. No exceptions.
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Post by christine58 on Oct 28, 2022 21:01:29 GMT
For those of you that think it’s OK for a 9 yo to have a knife…let’s think this through. 1. Both my boys were Boy Scouts and got their knife safety badge (or whatever it’s called) 2. Boy Scouts start at 12, not 9. So kid is a Cub Scout. There are no knives in Cub Scouts. 3. Is there a logical reason for a child to have a knife in his day-to-day life? I think the answer is no. My husband would let our boys carry knives when camping or sailing, there may be a use for them in these circumstances. In school? No way. 4. Kid brings knife to school = kid gets expelled. Period. No exceptions. #4 suspended maybe and expelled if it was used against a person. To expel him for just having it in a box of crayons where there was no intent to harm anyone makes no sense.
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Post by twinks on Oct 28, 2022 21:38:03 GMT
I totally agree with Elaine on this in that we don’t have all the facts. There are some key missing pieces.
I don’t agree that the parents should have hired a lawyer. There are, again, some key steps prior to filing a Due Process Hearing. One, they need to request a manifestation hearing. The parents should have an advocate with them. Not an attorney. They should have requested a Placement IEP meeting. I mean schools can’t just move a child to another school without a LRE placement hearing. It has been my experience if you just jump to Due Process then you rarely prevail. You need to make a proper paper trail and play the game. I know this from experience and I ended up prevailing.
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Post by putabuttononit on Oct 28, 2022 22:07:25 GMT
I totally agree with Elaine on this in that we don’t have all the facts. There are some key missing pieces. I don’t agree that the parents should have hired a lawyer. There are, again, some key steps prior to filing a Due Process Hearing. One, they need to request a manifestation hearing. The parents should have an advocate with them. Not an attorney. They should have requested a Placement IEP meeting. I mean schools can’t just move a child to another school without a LRE placement hearing. It has been my experience if you just jump to Due Process then you rarely prevail. You need to make a proper paper trail and play the game. I know this from experience and I ended up prevailing. Someone mentioned that the school might be trying to be rid of him due to history. I actually think it’s the opposite- this is his first year at this school (it’s not Alaska) and they don’t know him or are “invested” (didn’t watch him grow up, etc). He had only been there a few months. br] Since they just moved the kids’ stuff is everywhere, some things still in boxes etc. Just not the usual organization in their home yet. “L” is old enough to help pack his own room. He’s high functioning ASD but has social and behavioral issues yet is at grade level etc. He wasn’t taking the tiny pocketknife to show it off, he was taking a round tin of crayons because the teacher asked them to bring some if they had some to share. MANY boys that age who live in rural areas have been given a pocketknife by his age. (I’d say most but I could be wrong about that- in our area it’s most). Nobody knew it was in the crayon tin. Parents wouldn’t have even thought of it (I myself am a super careful parent and the thought wouldn’t have crossed my mind) He’s a sweet boy and never violent, always helpful to teachers, and had just met his first FRIEND which is a big deal to a child who struggles socially. Anyway just some more info and I appreciate every comment and insight.
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Post by Basket1lady on Oct 28, 2022 22:08:41 GMT
For those of you that think it’s OK for a 9 yo to have a knife…let’s think this through. 1. Both my boys were Boy Scouts and got their knife safety badge (or whatever it’s called) 2. Boy Scouts start at 12, not 9. So kid is a Cub Scout. There are no knives in Cub Scouts. 3. Is there a logical reason for a child to have a knife in his day-to-day life? I think the answer is no. My husband would let our boys carry knives when camping or sailing, there may be a use for them in these circumstances. In school? No way. 4. Kid brings knife to school = kid gets expelled. Period. No exceptions. Currently in Cub Scouts, you get your Whittling Chip as a Bear. That’s the training to carry a knife as a scout. That’s the end of 2nd grade, so 8-9 years old old ish. When DS was a scout, it was as a Weblos, so 10 years old ish. (He’s 25 now). You do need to re-earn your Whittling Chip as a Boy Scout, which is what you may be remembering? I do not think it was ok for this child to have had a knife unsupervised, nor do I think that it was ok to have it in school. As a parent, we held DS’s knife when he was a Cub Scout and he was given it at appropriate, supervised times. He was probably allowed to keep it when he crossed over to Boy Scouts at the end of 5th grade. Even then he still had it in a backpack and tried to board an airplane. (Although he was almost 12, so several years older and in middle school . And he wouldn’t received his Asperger’s diagnosis for another year.) I’m not a fan of sweeping generalizations, especially with such large consequences.
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Post by jemali on Oct 28, 2022 23:40:37 GMT
I had a neighbor kid who was doing a project for English, I’m guessing it was middle school. The students picked a book to do a presentation on. They had to bring 3 props that would fit in a brown lunch bag. One of the items from his book was a knife. He brought a plastic silverware knife to represent it. He got in trouble because of the “zero tolerance policy”. I believe he got detention. This is why I think there needs to be a case by case consideration.
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Post by stormycat on Oct 29, 2022 0:36:47 GMT
A number of thoughts: I still wouldn't give my boys with autism pocket knives and they are 21 & 23. They couldn't be safe with them for different reasons. We have no idea how severe the child in the OP is and that is important information. The school district owes the child a free and appropriate education. That does not mean that they owe him an education at the school of his/his parents’ choice. I understand that the boy loves the school, but none of us has the full picture and whether that is the best placement/least restrictive environment that is safe for him and his classmates. What someone with neuro typical children who homeschools them is not particularly applicable to a child with autism who attends a public school. It is interesting information, but it isn’t necessarily relevant. I eat whole wheat bread. It is safe for me. Another 3rd grade teacher on my team has celiac disease. The fact that it is perfectly fine and safe for me to eat wheat doesn't mean it is for her. None of us knows the actual child, what his level of functioning is, whether a knife was appropriate at his age, whether there are other issues - behavioral and academic - that might make this placement problematic. That at his young age this is “the first school he has ever loved” means that he has been to multiple schools for some reason(s) that none of us know. Honestly, there is too much unknown information for me to know if the school behaved inappropriately. I agree with you a f I’m going to add my 2 cents. First I’ll state I am the mom of neurotypical kids and one who has SN (not autism but a severe TBI. With that being said he really could be the sweetest, nicest kid but what about the others in his class? My son is 6 and sweet as can be, and very friendly as well, but lacks safety awareness. . If the other kid took it out and showed his classmates one of them could have some behavioral issues, one of them could have impulse control issues, one could be a show off, the list goes on and on. In my eyes it’s not a matter just about this kid, it’s also about the other kids in his class too. They also deserve a safe and free public education. I think that they should have suspended him pending the investigation, and go from there.
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 29, 2022 16:00:41 GMT
Instead of pointing fingers at the parents for not knowing the knife was in the crayon box, let’s remember this is a young boy who now has been kicked out of school. He didn’t hurt anyone with it but now he can’t go back into a classroom that he was doing well in. I am glad his parents got a lawyer and advocate. If he had taken it and hurt someone entirely different story. That’s why zero tolerance doesn’t work in some cases. It also seems like, based on the info we have, the school did not follow due process related to a student with a disability. That's against the law.
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
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Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Oct 29, 2022 16:12:11 GMT
It also seems like, based on the info we have, the school did not follow due process related to a student with a disability. That's against the law. Except it doesn't sound like this boy actually had a behavioral component to the IEP. A lot of the hearings, etc. are (legally) considered waived unless the IEP is relevant or unless the parents/guardians specifically request one. There's a lot of stuff that the default acceptable process is NOT to do anything.
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Post by christine58 on Oct 29, 2022 16:19:14 GMT
It also seems like, based on the info we have, the school did not follow due process related to a student with a disability. That's against the law. Except it doesn't sound like this boy actually had a behavioral component to the IEP. A lot of the hearings, etc. are (legally) considered waived unless the IEP is relevant or unless the parents/guardians specifically request one. There's a lot of stuff that the default acceptable process is NOT to do anything. Every IEP is SHOULD have a behavioral component
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Post by SockMonkey on Oct 29, 2022 16:23:33 GMT
It also seems like, based on the info we have, the school did not follow due process related to a student with a disability. That's against the law. Except it doesn't sound like this boy actually had a behavioral component to the IEP. A lot of the hearings, etc. are (legally) considered waived unless the IEP is relevant or unless the parents/guardians specifically request one. There's a lot of stuff that the default acceptable process is NOT to do anything. I thought everyone got an MDR, regardless of whether there's a behavior component to the IEP? I am not a Special Educator, so my understanding is clearly not as informed, but I thought the purpose of the MDR was to determine whether the behavior in question could be related to the disability. From the OP, it seemed like the child was questioned without parents and then parents were immediately informed of his removal...that seemed hinky. I know we're all getting this telephone-game style, too. But does everyone get an MDR for a serious infraction like this, or ONLY a student whose IEP has a behavioral component? (I really don't know...asking for me so I know!) Also, can't they still consider a BIP even if the MDR determines the behavior was not a manifestation of the disability? Or consider an alternate placement pending MDR? I feel like they went to 11 on this kid without a process that considered the needs and abilities of the child. I feel like they absolutely need an advocate/attorney, because even if the MDR comes out that it's not a manifestation of the disability, the parent has the right to a due process hearing.
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johnnysmom
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,684
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
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Post by johnnysmom on Oct 29, 2022 16:37:06 GMT
I totally agree with Elaine on this in that we don’t have all the facts. There are some key missing pieces. I don’t agree that the parents should have hired a lawyer. There are, again, some key steps prior to filing a Due Process Hearing. One, they need to request a manifestation hearing. The parents should have an advocate with them. Not an attorney. They should have requested a Placement IEP meeting. I mean schools can’t just move a child to another school without a LRE placement hearing. It has been my experience if you just jump to Due Process then you rarely prevail. You need to make a proper paper trail and play the game. I know this from experience and I ended up prevailing. Someone mentioned that the school might be trying to be rid of him due to history. I actually think it’s the opposite- this is his first year at this school (it’s not Alaska) and they don’t know him or are “invested” (didn’t watch him grow up, etc). He had only been there a few months. br] Since they just moved the kids’ stuff is everywhere, some things still in boxes etc. Just not the usual organization in their home yet. “L” is old enough to help pack his own room. He’s high functioning ASD but has social and behavioral issues yet is at grade level etc. He wasn’t taking the tiny pocketknife to show it off, he was taking a round tin of crayons because the teacher asked them to bring some if they had some to share. MANY boys that age who live in rural areas have been given a pocketknife by his age. (I’d say most but I could be wrong about that- in our area it’s most). Nobody knew it was in the crayon tin. Parents wouldn’t have even thought of it (I myself am a super careful parent and the thought wouldn’t have crossed my mind) He’s a sweet boy and never violent, always helpful to teachers, and had just met his first FRIEND which is a big deal to a child who struggles socially. Anyway just some more info and I appreciate every comment and insight. On the flip side, they don’t know his history. They don’t know if he’s a good kid who just made a simple mistake or if this is just the beginning. They are just starting to build a relationship with him so they’re not attached. They also might have seen some little snippets of behavior (either from him or his parents, needy/complaining parents aren’t favorable either) that makes them believe he’s going to be a lot of work (and therefore a lot of money) and if they can cut it off now they want to take their chance. Now none of that is right, or legal, but him being new isn’t going to work in his favor imo. I honestly wonder if hiring a lawyer and suing the school to take him back is a good thing for the kid. Or will he be going back to a place where he’s not wanted (which is heartbreaking to think about).
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
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Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Oct 29, 2022 16:44:51 GMT
But does everyone get an MDR for a serious infraction like this, or ONLY a student whose IEP has a behavioral component? (I really don't know...asking for me so I know!) Also, can't they still consider a BIP even if the MDR determines the behavior was not a manifestation of the disability? Or consider an alternate placement pending MDR? So I am not an expert in this area, but we've had to consult attorneys for behavioral stuff before, and a separate child has had an IEP with no behavioral component. So...in my experience, not all IEPs have a behavioral component. And as a separate thing, the attorney said that no, formal hearings are not required unless you request it. And if you haven't reported that the disability could have behvioral issues, they aren't considered. "They" are very skilled in playing by the exact micropixel of the letter of the law and in not doing a tiny bit more. In some instances, that's a very good thing, but in general, the overriding principle is "protect the school/staff/district at all costs." Again, that can be a good thing, but too often it's a CYA thing rather than a true protection attempt. And different school districts do have different policies. So the school district where the student beat up the teacher but returned a couple of days later may have their policies that are very different from the one in question. A "zero-tolerance" law/requirement will mean different things in different places, and will be written for different things. I guess it just seems to me that most zero-tolerance restrictions really need to be 0.00001-tolerance restrictions, where you can look at a tiny set of circumstances that could make it OK. But then you open up the whole can of worms that are sliding down the slippery slope...
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Oct 29, 2022 16:50:22 GMT
School psychologist here.
Just to clear things up-a manifestation, of which I’ve done hundreds, is a meeting to determine if the behavior in question occured because of the child’s disability. If it did not, then he can be disciplined just like his typical peers. In this case, it appears the disciplinary action is expulsion.
Other than that, I echo Elaine. They still are responsible for providing educational services but it doesn’t have to be in that school.
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,709
Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Oct 29, 2022 16:54:09 GMT
A manifestation has to occured regardless of the disability if the child has 10 days out of school suspension. The IEP doesn’t have to be behaviorally based.
If a child has a speech IEP only and brings a gun to school, we have to do a manifestation if they are suspended for more than 10 days. Obviously the IEP and evaluations we go over will not lend itself to finding the behavior a manifestation of the disability but it still must be done.
Even if this kiddo has no behavior goals in the IEP, the manifestation still must be conducted and should be step #1. Look at the evaluation. What behaviors have been noted in the past? That would be how we answer the question.
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Dani-Mani
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,709
Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Oct 29, 2022 16:56:48 GMT
Except it doesn't sound like this boy actually had a behavioral component to the IEP. A lot of the hearings, etc. are (legally) considered waived unless the IEP is relevant or unless the parents/guardians specifically request one. There's a lot of stuff that the default acceptable process is NOT to do anything. I thought everyone got an MDR, regardless of whether there's a behavior component to the IEP? I am not a Special Educator, so my understanding is clearly not as informed, but I thought the purpose of the MDR was to determine whether the behavior in question could be related to the disability. From the OP, it seemed like the child was questioned without parents and then parents were immediately informed of his removal...that seemed hinky. I know we're all getting this telephone-game style, too. But does everyone get an MDR for a serious infraction like this, or ONLY a student whose IEP has a behavioral component? (I really don't know...asking for me so I know!) Also, can't they still consider a BIP even if the MDR determines the behavior was not a manifestation of the disability? Or consider an alternate placement pending MDR? I feel like they went to 11 on this kid without a process that considered the needs and abilities of the child. I feel like they absolutely need an advocate/attorney, because even if the MDR comes out that it's not a manifestation of the disability, the parent has the right to a due process hearing. I would not consider a BIP of this is one isolated incident. If this kid has no history of behaviors, why do we need a plan to intervene? What are we intervening with? This appears to be an isolated incident and he appears to have fallen victim to zero tolerance rules.
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