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Post by Really Red on Oct 28, 2022 13:45:24 GMT
Can someone help me out? I know baseball rules, but don't really watch. It is my understanding that the Astros cheated a few years ago by stealing the opponents' signs. They were caught and I have no idea what then happened. One of my co-workers thinks it was a big pot of nothingness and said that Deflategate was so much worse.
I have absolutely no horse in the race. I just like to know stuff and google is not helping too much on this one. Thanks for helping me out.
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on Oct 28, 2022 13:59:16 GMT
I'm going to let Merge come in and answer this one. Last night I got maybe 2 hrs of sleep and anything I attempt to explain will come out jumbled and a mess! Hopefully she'll bring her great Astros meme as well!  |
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lindas
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lindas on Oct 28, 2022 14:08:44 GMT
In a nutshell, the general manager and field manager were suspended for the 2020 season, the team was fined $5 million and they lost their first and second round picks in the 2020 and 2021 draft. No players were punished because they had been given immunity by MLB in exchange For their cooperation.
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on Oct 28, 2022 14:22:04 GMT
the general manager and field manager were suspended for the 2020 season, The Astros also fired both of them and hired new managers. |
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Post by Sharon on Oct 28, 2022 14:30:09 GMT
They also had cameras set up to see the signs. They then banged on a can to let the batters know the pitches.
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garcia5050
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,773
Location: So. Calif.
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Post by garcia5050 on Oct 28, 2022 14:40:01 GMT
In addition to the banging, I thought the players were wearing some kind of wire that buzzed - and the buzzes told them about the upcoming pitch. It’s a travesty that they weren’t stripped of their title.
I think it was definitely way worse than deflate gate. Due to the number of players involved and the number of games that were compromised.
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Post by Merge on Oct 28, 2022 14:51:13 GMT
Disclaimer: I’m a huge Astros fan.
There were no buzzers. Completely debunked. Altuve also didn’t participate in the system.
Multiple players from other teams have said that every competitive team in the league was doing some version of what the Astros were doing. Carlos Beltran and Alex Cora literally came to Houston and said, what, you guys aren’t doing this yet?
Doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it does cast it in a different light (and makes the “righteous” indignation of Dodgers fans look pretty silly). People are mad the individual players weren’t punished, but think - if you start suspending and banning people, they’ve got no reason not to talk about what was going on on the rest of the league. We’ll see a lot more of these stories come out as players start aging out and retiring.
Astros were scapegoated because MLB didn’t want to cast a shadow on their marquee teams, plain and simple.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 28, 2022 15:04:06 GMT
They didn't have enough consequences, IMO. Cheating isn't cool.
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sweetpeasmom
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,684
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Post by sweetpeasmom on Oct 28, 2022 15:10:13 GMT
Is this why the catcher and pitcher now have a communication device?
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 15:13:17 GMT
“Broadly, the Astros cheated. Specifically, Houston incorporated an electronic sign-stealing system to gain an unfair competitive advantage. The Astros set up a camera in the outfield at Minute Maid Park, focusing on home plate. A TV monitor was set up near the Astros home dugout, where players and staff would decode the signs from opposing catchers. Once the code was cracked, they’d inform hitters at the plate what pitch was coming via a loud noise. This is how banging on a trash can became synonymous with the Astros.” theathletic.com/3515560/2022/08/24/astros-cheating-scandal-timeline/“The Athletic” is a highly respected publication and doesn’t favor one team over the other. While low level sign stealing is a part of baseball history, this was a whole other ballgame, no pun intended. I just want Philly to lose, and after so so many years Dusty Baker deserves a ring. He was the Nationals' manager, my team, though was let go before they won the World Series in 2019. So I’m rooting for Dusty. |
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on Oct 28, 2022 15:14:10 GMT
They didn't have enough consequences, IMO. Cheating isn't cool. And what do you suggest would have been "enough"? |
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 28, 2022 15:20:59 GMT
In addition to the banging, I thought the players were wearing some kind of wire that buzzed - and the buzzes told them about the upcoming pitch. It’s a travesty that they weren’t stripped of their title. I think it was definitely way worse than deflate gate. Due to the number of players involved and the number of games that were compromised. Bitter LA Dodgers fan here <raising hand> I'll never root for the Astros again. |
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scrappinwithoutpeas
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Post by scrappinwithoutpeas on Oct 28, 2022 16:01:28 GMT
In addition to the banging, I thought the players were wearing some kind of wire that buzzed - and the buzzes told them about the upcoming pitch. It’s a travesty that they weren’t stripped of their title. I think it was definitely way worse than deflate gate. Due to the number of players involved and the number of games that were compromised.
I'll never root for the Astros again. I'm conflicted about this series, because I'm a huge fan of Dusty Baker (I hear you, CardBoxer!) and the Nationals, but the whole Astros cheating scandal has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I can't bring myself to root for them. I agree it would be great for Dusty to get a ring, but...OTOH, Bryce Harper (now with the Phillies) also strikes a nerve because of the way in which he left the Nationals (and I was a big fan of his early in his Nationals career until his ego overtook his talent, LOL), so I kinda don't want them to win either.  I was all in for the Padres  , so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. |
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Post by Merge on Oct 28, 2022 16:05:09 GMT
They didn't have enough consequences, IMO. Cheating isn't cool. And what do you suggest would have been "enough"? Careful with the answer on that, too, because you’re going to have to apply it to the players of every other team using a similar system. Once you punish Astros’ players, they’re going to start talking about who else they know is doing something wrong. Even the Dodgers, according to Josh Reddick, who played for both teams during that period. houston.sportsmap.com/houston-astros-dodgers-plaschke-cheatersEven the Yankees, from whom Beltran brought the system to Houston. www.google.com/amp/s/climbingtalshill.com/2020/02/12/astros-carlos-beltran-sign-stealing-yankees-involvement/amp/It’s a mystery to me why Fiers makes claims about Houston and we get investigated, while other players make similar claims about other teams and nothing happens. Actually, wait, it’s not a mystery. It’s MLB punishing the Astros for continuing to be dominant without the enormous payroll their marquee teams put up. |
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Post by Merge on Oct 28, 2022 16:10:05 GMT
I'm going to let Merge come in and answer this one. Last night I got maybe 2 hrs of sleep and anything I attempt to explain will come out jumbled and a mess! Hopefully she'll bring her great Astros meme as well! Lol I missed your last sentence. As requested:  |
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Post by Really Red on Oct 28, 2022 16:14:36 GMT
Disclaimer: I’m a huge Astros fan. There were no buzzers. Completely debunked. Altuve also didn’t participate in the system. Multiple players from other teams have said that every competitive team in the league was doing some version of what the Astros were doing. Carlos Beltran and Alex Cora literally came to Houston and said, what, you guys aren’t doing this yet?
Doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it does cast it in a different light (and makes the “righteous” indignation of Dodgers fans look pretty silly). People are mad the individual players weren’t punished, but think - if you start suspending and banning people, they’ve got no reason not to talk about what was going on on the rest of the league. We’ll see a lot more of these stories come out as players start aging out and retiring. Astros were scapegoated because MLB didn’t want to cast a shadow on their marquee teams, plain and simple. This is what my co-worker said. Quite frankly, I believe it. I think it's stunning how much cheating goes on everywhere. I mean all professional sports, the government, work places, etc. Sigh. I know there are lots and lots of noncheaters out there. Okay. I appreciate everyone helping me to understand all of this. Thanks! |
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,062
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 28, 2022 16:15:16 GMT
Bitter LA Dodgers fan here <raising hand>
I'll never root for the Astros again. I'm conflicted about this series, because I'm a huge fan of Dusty Baker (I hear you, CardBoxer !) and the Nationals, but the whole Astros cheating scandal has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I can't bring myself to root for them. I agree it would be great for Dusty to get a ring, but...OTOH, Bryce Harper (now with the Phillies) also strikes a nerve because of the way in which he left the Nationals (and I was a big fan of his early in his Nationals career until his ego overtook his talent, LOL), so I kinda don't want them to win either. I was all in for the Padres , so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. Dusty Baker was one of my childhood heroes, he was part of the 77 Dodgers dream team so yeah, I'd like to for him to but...I can't. |
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 16:26:57 GMT
Bitter LA Dodgers fan here <raising hand>
I'll never root for the Astros again. I'm conflicted about this series, because I'm a huge fan of Dusty Baker (I hear you, CardBoxer !) and the Nationals, but the whole Astros cheating scandal has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I can't bring myself to root for them. I agree it would be great for Dusty to get a ring, but...OTOH, Bryce Harper (now with the Phillies) also strikes a nerve because of the way in which he left the Nationals (and I was a big fan of his early in his Nationals career until his ego overtook his talent, LOL), so I kinda don't want them to win either. I was all in for the Padres , so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. Ha! I was Padres all the way too! And the Mariners before that. I’ve long thought the Nats would not have won the World Series if Harper had stayed. Despite his talent, he was not a leader, did not help rookies, did nothing to bring the team together. Others did that. He kept to himself and was all about Harper. Their record and stats that season showed it was nearly impossible for the Nats to win the world series, but they did. And it was as much Davey and the clubhouse atmosphere—looking at you, Parra with Baby Shark!—that moved them forward despite insane odds. The atmosphere and team comraderie and attitude would have not been the same if Harper was there. Obviously just my take. I don’t like either team. But I kept a toothpick for ages when they were given out at one of the Dusty games, and because the Phillies are in our division, I’ll go with Dusty. (And what a crazy life he’s had! Hanging out with Jimi Hendrix?! He knows everyone.) |
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 16:37:29 GMT
I'm conflicted about this series, because I'm a huge fan of Dusty Baker (I hear you, CardBoxer !) and the Nationals, but the whole Astros cheating scandal has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I can't bring myself to root for them. I agree it would be great for Dusty to get a ring, but...OTOH, Bryce Harper (now with the Phillies) also strikes a nerve because of the way in which he left the Nationals (and I was a big fan of his early in his Nationals career until his ego overtook his talent, LOL), so I kinda don't want them to win either. I was all in for the Padres , so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. Dusty Baker was one of my childhood heroes, he was part of the 77 Dodgers dream team so yeah, I'd like to for him to but...I can't. LOL I get it and can’t fault you. But Harper/Phillies? I can’t. Did you ever watch the clip of J.T. Snow pulling Dusty’s toddler, Darren, out of the way a player racing to home plate? Afterwards MLB changed the minimum age of bat boys (and girls now) to 14. And that toddler, all grown up, is a baseball player now. He was with the Nats for a bit. youtu.be/2xxON-_1Qsg |
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scrappinwithoutpeas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Post by scrappinwithoutpeas on Oct 28, 2022 16:38:36 GMT
I'm conflicted about this series, because I'm a huge fan of Dusty Baker (I hear you, CardBoxer !) and the Nationals, but the whole Astros cheating scandal has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I can't bring myself to root for them. I agree it would be great for Dusty to get a ring, but...OTOH, Bryce Harper (now with the Phillies) also strikes a nerve because of the way in which he left the Nationals (and I was a big fan of his early in his Nationals career until his ego overtook his talent, LOL), so I kinda don't want them to win either. I was all in for the Padres , so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. Ha! I was Padres all the way too! And the Mariners before that. I’ve long thought the Nats would not have won the World Series if Harper had stayed. Despite his talent, he was not a leader, did not help rookies, did nothing to bring the team together. Others did that. He kept to himself and was all about Harper. Their record and stats that season showed it was nearly impossible for the Nats to win the world series, but they did. And it was as much Davey and the clubhouse atmosphere—looking at you, Parra with Baby Shark!—that moved them forward despite insane odds. The atmosphere and team comraderie and attitude would have not been the same if Harper was there. Obviously just my take. I don’t like either team. But I kept a toothpick for ages when they were given out at one of the Dusty games, and because the Phillies are in our division, I’ll go with Dusty. (And what a crazy life he’s had! Hanging out with Jimi Hendrix?! He knows everyone.) ITA about the Nats winning the series and Harper being all about himself. The Nats 2019 WS run was so magical - you could feel the excitement and camaraderie in the dugouts and you could see how much fun they were having! Bryce would have killed that; it just wouldn't have happened. We went to a lot of game watches at Nationals Park for the away games and had a blast! So yes, ultimately I'll probably end up rooting for the Astros Dusty Baker in this series. |
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 16:48:17 GMT
Ha! I was Padres all the way too! And the Mariners before that. I’ve long thought the Nats would not have won the World Series if Harper had stayed. Despite his talent, he was not a leader, did not help rookies, did nothing to bring the team together. Others did that. He kept to himself and was all about Harper. Their record and stats that season showed it was nearly impossible for the Nats to win the world series, but they did. And it was as much Davey and the clubhouse atmosphere—looking at you, Parra with Baby Shark!—that moved them forward despite insane odds. The atmosphere and team comraderie and attitude would have not been the same if Harper was there. Obviously just my take. I don’t like either team. But I kept a toothpick for ages when they were given out at one of the Dusty games, and because the Phillies are in our division, I’ll go with Dusty. (And what a crazy life he’s had! Hanging out with Jimi Hendrix?! He knows everyone.) ITA about the Nats winning the series and Harper being all about himself. The Nats 2019 WS run was so magical - you could feel the excitement and camaraderie in the dugouts and you could see how much fun they were having! Bryce would have killed that; it just wouldn't have happened. We went to a lot of game watches at Nationals Park for the away games and had a blast! So yes, ultimately I'll probably end up rooting for the Astros Dusty Baker in this series. From one article about the 2019 WS: “The team finished the month with the second-worst record in the major leagues at 19-31. According to MLB Stats, the Nationals had less than a 0.1 percent chance to win the World Series on May 28.” So sweet. We had season tickets back then and yes, it was magic. I would have loved to go to the park for some of the away games, especially the last one, good grief. And may we get a good buyer for the Nats so we can get back in the game. Meanwhile, go Dusty. He’s 73, time to wear a ring. |
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iowgirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,295
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Post by iowgirl on Oct 28, 2022 17:01:01 GMT
I'm not a follower of baseball, but as far as figuring out the pitchers signals - I would put that in the category of "all's fair in love and baseball" ... maybe I'm wrong. But if they aren't breaking into a clubhouse and stealing secret documents, why not? Maybe the setup of the cameras is a bit over the top?
When my kids played sports, I watched signals from other teams and would call out if I knew what was coming. I also helped and watched game films to figure out plays in volleyball. I even went to games of other teams we would be playing against and recorded for the coaches to watch. Most of the time when a play was called in High School volleyball, the coach would hold up a clipboard so it wasn't so viewable, but if you watched - it wasn't hard to figure it out. I knew when the setter on our team was setting high, low, placement on court just by watching her signal or say a word. I would watch the other teams setter to see what they were using for signals.
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on Oct 28, 2022 17:08:51 GMT
Lol I missed your last sentence. As requested: Thanks! It just went up on my Facebook page! |
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 17:22:56 GMT
I'm not a follower of baseball, but as far as figuring out the pitchers signals - I would put that in the category of "all's fair in love and baseball" ... maybe I'm wrong. But if they aren't breaking into a clubhouse and stealing secret documents, why not? Maybe the setup of the cameras is a bit over the top? When my kids played sports, I watched signals from other teams and would call out if I knew what was coming. I also helped and watched game films to figure out plays in volleyball. I even went to games of other teams we would be playing against and recorded for the coaches to watch. Most of the time when a play was called in High School volleyball, the coach would hold up a clipboard so it wasn't so viewable, but if you watched - it wasn't hard to figure it out. I knew when the setter on our team was setting high, low, placement on court just by watching her signal or say a word. I would watch the other teams setter to see what they were using for signals. It wasn't anything like what you describe, which is acceptable. The Athletic article, above, and many others explain it, but if you’re not into baseball it might not be that interesting. |
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Post by Merge on Oct 28, 2022 18:01:54 GMT
I'm not a follower of baseball, but as far as figuring out the pitchers signals - I would put that in the category of "all's fair in love and baseball" ... maybe I'm wrong. But if they aren't breaking into a clubhouse and stealing secret documents, why not? Maybe the setup of the cameras is a bit over the top? When my kids played sports, I watched signals from other teams and would call out if I knew what was coming. I also helped and watched game films to figure out plays in volleyball. I even went to games of other teams we would be playing against and recorded for the coaches to watch. Most of the time when a play was called in High School volleyball, the coach would hold up a clipboard so it wasn't so viewable, but if you watched - it wasn't hard to figure it out. I knew when the setter on our team was setting high, low, placement on court just by watching her signal or say a word. I would watch the other teams setter to see what they were using for signals. It wasn't anything like what you describe, which is acceptable. The Athletic article, above, and many others explain it, but if you’re not into baseball it might not be that interesting. “Watched signals from other teams and would call out if I knew what was coming …” literally what happened. I’m guessing she wasn’t standing on second base while she did it. |
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Post by scrapcat on Oct 28, 2022 18:44:19 GMT
Just popping in to say...
GO PHILLIES!!!
I'ma ignore the haters cuz we havin' way too much fun up here.
But all in all, let's hope it's a good, fair series!
And if you love a good underdog, comeback story, the Phillies would be it this season.
Honestly had mixed feelings about Harper when he first got here, but I do think he has grown and showed up for this team. He gets what Philly fans want out of their team.
And if it doesn't work out, no hard feelings, back to our undefeated EAGLES!
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Post by NanaKate on Oct 28, 2022 21:00:41 GMT
Astros were scapegoated because MLB didn’t want to cast a shadow on their marquee teams, plain and simple. EXACTLY! GO ASTROS!!!⚾️⚾️⚾️ |
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Post by Sharon on Oct 28, 2022 21:51:39 GMT
In addition to the banging, I thought the players were wearing some kind of wire that buzzed - and the buzzes told them about the upcoming pitch. It’s a travesty that they weren’t stripped of their title. I think it was definitely way worse than deflate gate. Due to the number of players involved and the number of games that were compromised. I agree. I never thought they deserved the title when they got it by cheating. They denied wearing the buzzers but I don't believe any of them! |
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Post by CardBoxer on Oct 28, 2022 22:05:34 GMT
In addition to the banging, I thought the players were wearing some kind of wire that buzzed - and the buzzes told them about the upcoming pitch. It’s a travesty that they weren’t stripped of their title. I think it was definitely way worse than deflate gate. Due to the number of players involved and the number of games that were compromised. I agree. I never thought they deserved the title when they got it by cheating. They denied wearing the buzzers but I don't believe any of them! I don’t think whether or not they wore buzzers matters much since there’s plenty they did with technology that was sophisticated cheating. “Houston employees in the video room used game feed from the center field camera to decode and relay the signs of opposing teams to any Astros' baserunners on second base. The means of relaying the signs often varied. With the runner on second, the team would have a go-between from the video room and the dugout, and personnel in the dugout would send the signal out to the runner on second, who would then signal to the batter which pitch was coming. Bench coach Alex Cora would also call the replay review room to hear the sign information and, sometimes, the replay review room would send a text to a smart watch or stored phone in the dugout to communicate the signs. However, the report stated the scandal went further. Designated hitter Carlos Beltran and several other players devised a plan to improve the sign-stealing. Cora set up a monitor that displayed the center field camera feed directly outside the dugout, and a player would watch it and read what signs were coming. The team would then bang on a trash can to signal which pitch was coming to the batter. The trash can only came into play after trying out clapping, whistling and yelling.” www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/astros-cheating-scandal-explained/1ptq9e01ed4sr1ozgmjsznsd7hThis is nothing like standard sign stealing. And the conspiracy theories Astros fans came up with were creative. The Astros have a huge amount of talent, so let them win the right way. (Go Dusty.) |
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Post by Merge on Oct 28, 2022 23:09:22 GMT
I agree. I never thought they deserved the title when they got it by cheating. They denied wearing the buzzers but I don't believe any of them! I don’t think whether or not they wore buzzers matters much since there’s plenty they did with technology that was sophisticated cheating. “Houston employees in the video room used game feed from the center field camera to decode and relay the signs of opposing teams to any Astros' baserunners on second base. The means of relaying the signs often varied. With the runner on second, the team would have a go-between from the video room and the dugout, and personnel in the dugout would send the signal out to the runner on second, who would then signal to the batter which pitch was coming. Bench coach Alex Cora would also call the replay review room to hear the sign information and, sometimes, the replay review room would send a text to a smart watch or stored phone in the dugout to communicate the signs. However, the report stated the scandal went further. Designated hitter Carlos Beltran and several other players devised a plan to improve the sign-stealing. Cora set up a monitor that displayed the center field camera feed directly outside the dugout, and a player would watch it and read what signs were coming. The team would then bang on a trash can to signal which pitch was coming to the batter. The trash can only came into play after trying out clapping, whistling and yelling.” www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/astros-cheating-scandal-explained/1ptq9e01ed4sr1ozgmjsznsd7hThis is nothing like standard sign stealing. And the conspiracy theories Astros fans came up with were creative. The Astros have a huge amount of talent, so let them win the right way. (Go Dusty.) If it’s all conspiracy theories, why did Manfred agree to seal the Yankees’ cheating letter? Why were other credible player allegations not investigated by MLB? Cora didn’t just come up with this plan out of thin air. And you’ll never convince me that the Astros were doing something more egregious than what the Yankees and Red Sox had done, and likely many others based on player statements. Some fans like to talk a lot about what the Astros did ruining the trajectory of opposing players’ careers and such. If that’s the case, your revenge is that Jose Altuve, an absolutely amazing human being and future hall of fame player who was not involved in the scandal, now has his career and legacy forever tainted so that MLB could shield their special boys in New York, Boston, and probably LA from the heat. Good job, Manfred. Hope everyone’s happy. |
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I was all in for the Padres 
, so I suppose I'll choose the lesser of my two dislikes. 
