|
Post by librarylady on Dec 9, 2022 23:06:28 GMT
I'm shocked to learn that the phrase means nothing in the Hawaiian language.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Dec 9, 2022 23:27:09 GMT
I cannot get worked up about this. So it’s a made-up saying. That made its first appearance in a Hawaiian-language newspaper? The issues that created it are the bigger matter, but the words themselves? meh I will just be quietly grateful that although I bought a Hawaiian Santa stamp set years ago, I never got around to making any (probably completely tasteless) cards with it that might have got me in trouble.
|
|
|
Post by librarylady on Dec 9, 2022 23:29:55 GMT
I am not worked up, but just wondering if the native Hawaiians were POed when it all began. Now, everyone is probably used to it and just shrugs.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Dec 9, 2022 23:38:16 GMT
oh, I didn’t mean you were worked up … I was just responding to the article and the scholarly takes on it. They’re complaining about cultural appropriation re something that native Hawaiians themselves apparently started.
|
|
|
Post by littlemama on Dec 9, 2022 23:42:47 GMT
I found that out several years ago. Not a huge fan of the song anyway.
|
|
RosieKat
Drama Llama

PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,690
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
|
Post by RosieKat on Dec 10, 2022 0:27:10 GMT
I will always love it because I picture my grandfather singing it. He and my grandmother were stationed in Hawaii when their first grandchildren were born, and they had a great love for the state. Even after they moved back to the mainland, they adopted/continued a fair amount of Hawaiian flavor, for lack of a better word. He was quite the character - in both good and bad ways - but I have very distinct memories of him playing this on the organ they had crammed into a corner of their small den, grinning like a madman with blinding white false teeth beaming out of a super tanned face, smoking his cigarette in a short little holder and singing this song. Appropriation or not, it will always bring ME joy. 
|
|
milocat
Drama Llama

Posts: 5,899
Location: 55 degrees north in Alberta, Canada
Mar 18, 2015 4:10:31 GMT
|
Post by milocat on Dec 10, 2022 1:57:59 GMT
Many phrases are made up and after years they just become a part of everyday language or culture. So they took Merry Christmas and converted it to Hawaiian. To me that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by cadoodlebug on Dec 10, 2022 2:31:34 GMT
Eh, I learned it in second grade when we first moved to Hawaii and have been belting it out ever since. Hawaii was a territory then and became a state 4 years later. Wonderful place to grow up.
|
|
|
Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 10, 2022 12:33:49 GMT
I’ve never heard of this saying, but in general I think that all cultures are created by appropriating others to an extent. That has happened throughout time but even more so now that we live in a global community and our countries are more diverse.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:41 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2022 12:55:19 GMT
That reminded me of my Japanese friend who would get very upset when movies had an actor speaking Japanese with an American accent. I guess she felt they should use a Japanese actor. My position is actors are pretending to be someone, not actually someone.
Back to the topic, I think I’d be annoyed if a popular song was ,”Bebishfhdks” is the way to say good day in the grand old USA.” I’d be thinking, “Seriously? What is wrong with you?”
|
|
|
Post by CardBoxer on Dec 10, 2022 13:30:09 GMT
I am not worked up, but just wondering if the native Hawaiians were POed when it all began. Now, everyone is probably used to it and just shrugs. The article said some are p.o.’ed and some sing along if they hear it in stores. If someone composed a song today with made-up words/sounds from a minority group’s language or slang, seems that most people in that group would be insulted. It’s cringe worthy. It reminds me a bit of sports teams that use/used native American symbols as mascots or in cheers. The Washington Redskins? Ugh. (They finally changed the name.) The tomahawk chop? The teams say they’re honoring the culture. How tone deaf can they be? ”Why is it still okay to use this obviously offensive example of cultural appropriation?” asks Gary Holton, a linguistics professor at the University of Hawaii’s Center for Pacific Islands Studies. “Maybe because we’re a tiny chain of islands in the middle of the Pacific.”It’s not up to the white majority to decide what’s offensive to a group they are not part of.
|
|
|
Post by prettyprettypaper on Dec 10, 2022 14:24:14 GMT
Many phrases are made up and after years they just become a part of everyday language or culture. So they took Merry Christmas and converted it to Hawaiian. To me that makes sense. This. While the song itself is problematic, the phrase is not. There are many loan words in the Hawaiian language such as: kelepona = telephone Kaleponi = California minuke = minute and so forth. We simply need the Hawaiian equivalent of words in other languages to facilitate communication. Christmas was a foreign idea to Hawaiians, so they did not have a word for it in their language. So was merry. Mele is an actual Hawaiian word, most commonly used to mean song/chant. In this case, if you've been in Hawaiʻi long enough (or born and raised here like myself), you would recognize that, in this context, it means merry. Are there alternatives to convey this idea in a way that better aligns with Hawaiian thought? Yes. Common alternatives are: Aloha Kalikimaka Lā (Day) Kalikimaka Hauʻoli (Happy) Kalikimaka There are numerous other options. As for the word kalikimaka, the article states that the phrase Mele Kalikimaka first appeared in print in 1904. I do want to point out that a form of the word Christmas first appeared in a Hawaiian newspaper in 1865 and was referred to as Karisimasa. The word Kalikimaka first appeared in a Hawaiian newspaper in 1877. Just pointing out that Karisimasa/Kalikimaka were already in use for quite some time.
|
|
|
Post by prettyprettypaper on Dec 10, 2022 15:04:22 GMT
Back to the topic, I think I’d be annoyed if a popular song was ,”Bebishfhdks” is the way to say good day in the grand old USA.” I’d be thinking, “Seriously? What is wrong with you?” Except itʻs not really gibberish. Is it true to the Hawaiian culture? No. But those familiar with the language should understand how those words came to be. When we hear Mele Kalikimaka, we donʻt hear nonsensical gibberish. Is it annoying for some to hear that Mele Kalikimaka is the thing to say on a bright Hawaiian Christmas day? Yes - in the same way it is annoying to hear that pizza and other foods are Hawaiian because they contain pineapple. Now, do many Hawaiians actually say, "Mele Kalikimaka" on bright, Hawaiian Christmas days? Also yes, although some choose different phrases such as the ones I listed in my post above. Now if people want to insist that Mele Kalikimaka is gibberish, they should make the same argument about all other words in the Hawaiian language that are words converted from English. Kawika is the Hawaiian version of David. It does not mean anything in Hawaiian. King David Kalakaua was King of Hawaii from 1874 to 1891. One of the most famous chants is one written in his honor. It is simply titled "Kawika" and, for many hula dancers, it is one of the first hula that they learn. No one complains that Kawika is gibberish since it has no meaning in Hawaiian and was created to provide a Hawaiian form of the English name David.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Aug 18, 2025 20:02:41 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2022 17:14:00 GMT
Back to the topic, I think I’d be annoyed if a popular song was ,”Bebishfhdks” is the way to say good day in the grand old USA.” I’d be thinking, “Seriously? What is wrong with you?” Except itʻs not really gibberish. Is it true to the Hawaiian culture? No. But those familiar with the language should understand how those words came to be. When we hear Mele Kalikimaka, we donʻt hear nonsensical gibberish. Is it annoying for some to hear that Mele Kalikimaka is the thing to say on a bright Hawaiian Christmas day? Yes - in the same way it is annoying to hear that pizza and other foods are Hawaiian because they contain pineapple. Now, do many Hawaiians actually say, "Mele Kalikimaka" on bright, Hawaiian Christmas days? Also yes, although some choose different phrases such as the ones I listed in my post above. Now if people want to insist that Mele Kalikimaka is gibberish, they should make the same argument about all other words in the Hawaiian language that are words converted from English. Kawika is the Hawaiian version of David. It does not mean anything in Hawaiian. King David Kalakaua was King of Hawaii from 1874 to 1891. One of the most famous chants is one written in his honor. It is simply titled "Kawika" and, for many hula dancers, it is one of the first hula that they learn. No one complains that Kawika is gibberish since it has no meaning in Hawaiian and was created to provide a Hawaiian form of the English name David.Makes sense. The article does say, "So, what does it mean? “Nothing,” says Holton. “It’s basically gibberish.” “Hawaiian has just eight consonant sounds and nothing like a consonant cluster, where multiple consonants come together to form a new sound, like in the English word ‘strength,’ which starts with three consonants and ends with a four-letter cluster,” Holton says. He adds that the two syllables in “Christmas” became five in “kalikimaka” because of the Hawaiian language’s syllable structure: A consonant sound must be accompanied by at least one vowel sound." So that's where I was going from.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Dec 10, 2022 20:44:11 GMT
I am not worked up, but just wondering if the native Hawaiians were POed when it all began. Now, everyone is probably used to it and just shrugs. The article said some are p.o.’ed and some sing along if they hear it in stores. If someone composed a song today with made-up words/sounds from a minority group’s language or slang, seems that most people in that group would be insulted. It’s cringe worthy. It reminds me a bit of sports teams that use/used native American symbols as mascots or in cheers. The Washington Redskins? Ugh. (They finally changed the name.) The tomahawk chop? The teams say they’re honoring the culture. How tone deaf can they be? ”Why is it still okay to use this obviously offensive example of cultural appropriation?” asks Gary Holton, a linguistics professor at the University of Hawaii’s Center for Pacific Islands Studies. “Maybe because we’re a tiny chain of islands in the middle of the Pacific.”It’s not up to the white majority to decide what’s offensive to a group they are not part of. But no one composed a song with made-up words, at least not made up by the composer. It’s clear from the article, if you read the whole thing, and also from prettyprettypaper’s additional local knowledge, that the term originated with native speakers well over 100 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by CardBoxer on Dec 10, 2022 21:39:14 GMT
The article said some are p.o.’ed and some sing along if they hear it in stores. If someone composed a song today with made-up words/sounds from a minority group’s language or slang, seems that most people in that group would be insulted. It’s cringe worthy. It reminds me a bit of sports teams that use/used native American symbols as mascots or in cheers. The Washington Redskins? Ugh. (They finally changed the name.) The tomahawk chop? The teams say they’re honoring the culture. How tone deaf can they be? ”Why is it still okay to use this obviously offensive example of cultural appropriation?” asks Gary Holton, a linguistics professor at the University of Hawaii’s Center for Pacific Islands Studies. “Maybe because we’re a tiny chain of islands in the middle of the Pacific.”It’s not up to the white majority to decide what’s offensive to a group they are not part of. But no one composed a song with made-up words, at least not made up by the composer. It’s clear from the article, if you read the whole thing, and also from prettyprettypaper ’s additional local knowledge, that the term originated with native speakers well over 100 years ago. I was going by what the linguistics professor and Rodrigues said. So, what does it mean? “Nothing,” says Holton. “It’s basically gibberish.”
Back on the islands, reactions are more mixed. While some Hawaiians are happy to sing along as they shop for a tree to take home, Rodrigues says that his friends and family “cringe when someone says it. The song is even worse. It’s dripping with smugness.”
When Native Americans were attempting to get the Washington Redskins to change their name, some Native Americans didn’t care. Since different opinions exist in any group, when I’m not part of a minority group, I don’t have standing so want to pay attention to what’s offensive to some. Just my take.
|
|
|
Post by prettyprettypaper on Dec 11, 2022 5:50:17 GMT
But no one composed a song with made-up words, at least not made up by the composer. It’s clear from the article, if you read the whole thing, and also from prettyprettypaper ’s additional local knowledge, that the term originated with native speakers well over 100 years ago. I was going by what the linguistics professor and Rodrigues said. Oh, I get that. Now, as a Native Hawaiian who has lived in Hawaii for 51 years this month, I can honestly say I have never once heard this argument. I have taken Hawaiian language classes from multiple instructors in the university system, and I also have personal friends who have taught the langauge in Hawaii schools. Not one of them has complained either. There will always be those who insist that we must only use words that are culturally correct - if there is an option to do so. Then, there are those who see the language as one that is always evolving and are open to incorporating modern words in their speech. An example is kiuke to mean cute. There are going to be speakers who choose not to use kiuke since the Hawaiian language already contains words that can be used to describe physical appearance in an attractive manner. Personally, I am not a fan of hauʻoli ʻahaʻaina for happy festival. There is no reference to Christ. I mean, itʻs a festival for whom or for what?? We donʻt know.
|
|
|
Post by CardBoxer on Dec 12, 2022 19:29:10 GMT
I was going by what the linguistics professor and Rodrigues said. Oh, I get that. Now, as a Native Hawaiian who has lived in Hawaii for 51 years this month, I can honestly say I have never once heard this argument. I have taken Hawaiian language classes from multiple instructors in the university system, and I also have personal friends who have taught the langauge in Hawaii schools. Not one of them has complained either. There will always be those who insist that we must only use words that are culturally correct - if there is an option to do so. Then, there are those who see the language as one that is always evolving and are open to incorporating modern words in their speech. An example is kiuke to mean cute. There are going to be speakers who choose not to use kiuke since the Hawaiian language already contains words that can be used to describe physical appearance in an attractive manner. Personally, I am not a fan of hauʻoli ʻahaʻaina for happy festival. There is no reference to Christ. I mean, itʻs a festival for whom or for what?? We donʻt know. I hear you and get it, as well your take on happy festival, though since not everyone celebrates Christmas and this is a diverse area, when I don’t know I say happy holidays (U.S.). Or happy whatever they celebrate if I know. Anyway, you see it differently than the linguistics guy and those mentioned in the article, and given your experience and education, so quite possibly they’re a tiny minority. I just figure since I don’t have standing, if 10% of any minority group objects to certain language usage, I won’t use it. It doesn’t cost me anything to stop. And I can’t know if it’s five or ten or eighty percent who don’t like whatever it is, if that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by gryroagain on Dec 12, 2022 19:37:38 GMT
I see it as a loan word, not gibberish. Every language has loan words? To scrub them all out in search of a “pure” language seems pedantic. North Korea has tried to do so to a ridiculous extent that has nearly separated the Korean language as much as the country is divided. Language is not a static thing.
|
|
|
Post by papersilly on Dec 12, 2022 19:41:44 GMT
lol. i was telling DH about this and warned him not to go around greeting people with that phrase.
|
|
|
Post by katlady on Dec 12, 2022 19:50:15 GMT
I see it as a loan word, not gibberish. Every language has loan words? To scrub them all out in search of a “pure” language seems pedantic. North Korea has tried to do so to a ridiculous extent that has nearly separated the Korean language as much as the country is divided. Language is not a static thing. Japanese has a lot of loan words, they even use a different writing system for them. And like Hawaiian, every syllable ends in a vowel, so many loan words in Japanese sound nothing like the original. I’ve never heard anyone verbally greet someone with Mele Kalikimaka. I’ve seen it on signs and in greeting cards.
|
|
anniebygaslight
Drama Llama

I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,412
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
|
Post by anniebygaslight on Dec 13, 2022 6:53:06 GMT
The Bing Crosby song is currently on a Christmas Ad on the telly here in the UK. It gave me the most annoying earworm the other day. I just couldn’t stop it popping into my head.
|
|