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Post by mom2jnk on Jan 13, 2023 21:21:28 GMT
Non-Catholic who married a Catholic man thirty years ago here...there was no pressure for me to convert, we participated in extensive (and very helpful) Pre-Cana counseling/mentoring sessions with a group of engaged couples and some long time married couples as mentors, paid a rental fee for using the Church. None of those things were bad. We were asked to raise our children in the Catholic Church. They were baptized and attended a Catholic elementary school till fifth grade, but neither chose to be confirmed. Still happily married...
Like others here, I see a sea of red flags flying in your post. But most of the alert I'm feeling is from your narrative on your prospective SIL..."stir the pot," "hold her to it, "have to do this to appease him." Your feelings are certainly clear from the words you have chosen to write. Are you aware of how negatively your words are portraying this situation? I'm not sure I would rush to tar this prospective SIL as others have, but point out that this is your perspective highlighting all sorts of negative things without a single positive. Your animosity towards your DD's boyfriend and towards his family's religion is concerning. And I'm not a member of or a fan of the Catholic Church.
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Post by Basket1lady on Jan 13, 2023 21:26:11 GMT
To answer some of your questions: Only one person needs to be Catholic to marry in the Catholic Church and have your marriage blessed by a priest. However, both parties must agree to raise their family in the Catholic Church. If this is not going to happen, don't get married in the Catholic Church. Yes, of course you will be required to make a donation to the Church to married in their facilities. Every church has operating expenses and will require a fee. "Sizable" is probably not accurate. $200-800 will probably be the range. Couples will absolutely need to have pre-marital counseling by the Church. It is called Pre-Cana and it can be over several classes or an Engaged Encounter weekend. Also, all Christian religions are an "offshoot" of the Roman Catholic Church, not vice-versa. All that aside, your future son-in-law doesn't sound like a good mate for your daughter and needs to work a lot issues out, and that is much more important than what the Catholic Church will require for marriage.  And very well said. Another cradle Catholic here and a catechist (religious ed teacher). There are some things that are up to the individual parish/priest/diocese—such as pre Cana counseling. Some dioceses are more strict or lenient than others and some parishes within a diocese can be more strict/lenient. You can definitely have the wedding ceremony without a mass (with the Eucharist). You can have other clergy participate in the ceremony. In my experience, a parish likes you to be a member before hosting a wedding. But the marriage process generally takes about 6-12 months, so there is some built in time in the schedule for that. I’m not 100% sure about this and it could vary by diocese or priest, but I believe that if you choose not to raise the children Catholic, you can have the ceremony but it won’t be blessed by the church and is not considered a sacrament. I’d have to do some more research on that one. If either party has been previously married, an annulment would need to take place within the church. Yes, there is a fee for that and it takes between 6-24 months. As for all of the red flags—do not “talk to his parents” behind their backs. Don’t be that meddling MIL. Your DD is an adult and should be treated as such. You do have some legitimate concerns. I’d probably really encourage them to wait until your DD is done with school and to double up on birth control methods (I know, I’m a bad Catholic). It sounds like they are still young and there is time to wait out a long engagement. Hopefully that would give them both time to mature and figure out their communication. |
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peabay
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Post by peabay on Jan 13, 2023 21:56:00 GMT
Why is she marrying him?
Totally legit question: does she love him? What are his redeeming features because we've only heard bad things.
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Post by Laurie on Jan 13, 2023 22:02:18 GMT
My mom & dad got married in the Catholic Church 50 years ago. My dad is Lutheran, my mom was Catholic. They had the wedding in her church, nut were not allowed to have a mass. They had the Lutheran Pastor there to bless the marriage. They were not going to continue as a Catholic couple, so they did not have to promise to raise any kids Catholic. If your DD was going to continue as Catholic, I would think there would be a lot more "rules." This is what my brother and sil did about 15 years ago. She wanted to get married in her church and her mom pushed for it as well. Both my brother and sil had decided that when they had kids they wouldn’t be raised Catholic. Their boys were baptized as Lutherans when they were babies. However, the boys now go to a Catholic school and were recently baptized there as well…but they are still members of a Lutheran church. Crazy I know. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 13, 2023 22:09:42 GMT
Non-Catholic who married a Catholic man thirty years ago here...there was no pressure for me to convert, we participated in extensive (and very helpful) Pre-Cana counseling/mentoring sessions with a group of engaged couples and some long time married couples as mentors, paid a rental fee for using the Church. None of those things were bad. We were asked to raise our children in the Catholic Church. They were baptized and attended a Catholic elementary school till fifth grade, but neither chose to be confirmed. Still happily married... Like others here, I see a sea of red flags flying in your post. But most of the alert I'm feeling is from your narrative on your prospective SIL..."stir the pot," "hold her to it, "have to do this to appease him." Your feelings are certainly clear from the words you have chosen to write. Are you aware of how negatively your words are portraying this situation? I'm not sure I would rush to tar this prospective SIL as others have, but point out that this is your perspective highlighting all sorts of negative things without a single positive. Your animosity towards your DD's boyfriend and towards his family's religion is concerning. And I'm not a member of or a fan of the Catholic Church. I agree with a lot of this - I was more vague in my post, but I absolutely see red flags with how you're describing the situation and in particular feeling like talking to his mother is a reasonable option. He could be the total ass that you're portraying him to be, but clearly your daughter sees it differently. If the two of them cannot navigate a wedding without their mother's negotiating conflict, the marriage is not off to an auspicious beginning. |
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pilcas
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Post by pilcas on Jan 13, 2023 22:13:13 GMT
To answer some of your questions: Only one person needs to be Catholic to marry in the Catholic Church and have your marriage blessed by a priest. However, both parties must agree to raise their family in the Catholic Church. If this is not going to happen, don't get married in the Catholic Church. Yes, of course you will be required to make a donation to the Church to married in their facilities. Every church has operating expenses and will require a fee. "Sizable" is probably not accurate. $200-800 will probably be the range. Couples will absolutely need to have pre-marital counseling by the Church. It is called Pre-Cana and it can be over several classes or an Engaged Encounter weekend. Also, all Christian religions are an "offshoot" of the Roman Catholic Church, not vice-versa.All that aside, your future son-in-law doesn't sound like a good mate for your daughter and needs to work a lot issues out, and that is much more important than what the Catholic Church will require for marriage. I also see it vice versa though too, those who worship Jesus Christ Christians and the Roman Catholic Church is just one type of church. But yes, it did start as Roman Catholic and then denominations broke away and formed. To me, when someone says Christian it could be one of many big or small churches that worship Jesus Christ, each with their own rules. The Catholic Church would be one of them, definitely not an off shoot. |
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Post by bc2ca on Jan 13, 2023 22:29:15 GMT
My family is Muslim and Christian From my experience it does depend on which Christian denomination you are and if you are baptized. Liturgical churches (Catholic, Episcopalian/Anglican, Orthodox, etc.) where the person is baptism in name of the Holy Trinity generally recognize each others' baptisms and allow you to marry in their church although you can't take communion unless you convert and, as others have mention, you do make a promise to raise any children in that faith. FWIW, I had to dig out my Anglican baptism papers and they were sent to the Archbishop for approval to get married in the Orthodox church. Also, all Christian religions are an "offshoot" of the Roman Catholic Church, not vice-versa. And the Roman Catholic Church is an offshoot of the Orthodox Church.  |
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iowgirl
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Post by iowgirl on Jan 13, 2023 23:41:47 GMT
Do you have to convert to be able to get married in the church? No Also, don't you have to make a sizable donation to the church to be able to have the ceremony there? No - but you generally give some type of donation. They are finding they must be members of the parish for a year and complete multiple classes before they can be married. This - he can't just say we are getting married in the Church, if he is not a member. I was married in the Catholic Church, but not in a Mass. There really wasn't much of any other choice, other than a courthouse wedding back then. Now there are so many more meaningful options that are acceptable. |
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peaname
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Post by peaname on Jan 14, 2023 0:53:17 GMT
If he doesn’t attend mass then he probably won’t expect her to convert or promise to raise the children catholic. Sometimes having children brings people back to their childhood faith. She sounds young and he sounds like he’s not ready for engagement, maybe he’s looking for an excuse not to ask.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Jan 14, 2023 0:53:59 GMT
One of my sisters and her DH were in that boat. We were raised Catholic and he was raised Lutheran. She wanted to get married in our parish church and there were so many hoops they had to jump through. I recall that there was a lot of pressure for him to convert and he flat out refused that. They did have some premarital counseling through the church. They were eventually able to get married there but they also had to agree to raise their children Catholic which she mostly did. He never was a churchgoer.
Getting married in any church is expensive, you have to pay for the use of the church building, honorariums for the priest/pastor, all musicians / singers, if you have the reception there too there’s an extra charge for that.
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kate
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Jan 14, 2023 2:13:48 GMT
Slight hijack: Their boys were baptized as Lutherans when they were babies. However, the boys now go to a Catholic school and were recently baptized there as well…  The Catholic Church absolutely recognizes Lutheran baptism - there should not have been any "re-baptism" by the Catholics! /hijack I am a practicing Catholic in a happy, mixed marriage. Others have already given the OP good advice. The church issue seems to be the least of the scary problems here. |
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Jan 14, 2023 2:36:45 GMT
I’m going to say what no one else has specifically said ~ every priest makes up his own rules. Sometimes it starts from a bishop / archbishop and he controls every parish in his diocese. Sometimes it’s the priest at a particular church and the neighboring priest will do something completely different. It’s ridiculous.
Signed, 12 years of Catholic education, 18 years of church once or twice weekly, married in the church to a non-Catholic, been to dozens of Catholic weddings where priests would / wouldn’t do certain things, with parents who are still blindly devoted to being Catholics
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janeinbama
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Post by janeinbama on Jan 14, 2023 2:48:57 GMT
I agree with all posters about the red flags concerning your DD's fiancee. As a practicing Catholic married to a non practicing Baptist husband, you can get married in the Catholic church. I also have directed weddings at our parish church. One of the couple must be a practicing Catholic and a registered member of a Catholic parish. Also, our parish will not Baptize children if at least one of the parents is not a practicing Catholic. This does change from parish to parish and there are exceptions to every rule.
Good luck to your DD.
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Post by mikklynn on Jan 14, 2023 12:38:45 GMT
iowgirl It's also complicated by both of them being members of different parishes. I feel the church is driving young people away by making it so difficult. ELCA Lutheran churches require some classes, but not as many as the Catholic church. They would not have to wait a year in my church.
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Post by bearmom on Jan 14, 2023 13:08:29 GMT
My story, granted I have been married 25 years….
I did”t have to convert, never have. I do go to mass with dh when he goes because it is important to him. We didn’t have mass in our wedding, dh agreed, while we were engaged. This was a big deal for the priest, he had never done a wedding without mass in the church, and his mom. She brought it up regularly during our engagement. Two weeks before our wedding, the church did their priest rotation and the new priest was much easier to work with and when we met with him, he was comfortable with not doing mass.
Regarding counseling, because we were college students/recent graduates and lived 7 hours away from where we were getting married, the priest gave us a set of taps to listen to and discuss. It was minimal at best.
I agree with the pp, there are red flags with the boyfriend’s behavior.
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Post by scrappinmom3 on Jan 14, 2023 20:51:59 GMT
I got married 40 years ago in a Catholic Church. My husband was raised Catholic, but no longer participated. I agreed to get married in the Catholic Church with the agreement that there would not be a mass. Well, guess what, there was a mass. I was pissed. I was not raised in any religion, but was raised to be a good, moral human being. It further turned me against the Catholic religion.
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Post by Zee on Jan 14, 2023 21:16:47 GMT
I got married 40 years ago in a Catholic Church. My husband was raised Catholic, but no longer participated. I agreed to get married in the Catholic Church with the agreement that there would not be a mass. Well, guess what, there was a mass. I was pissed. I was not raised in any religion, but was raised to be a good, moral human being. It further turned me against the Catholic religion. I've never once been to any wedding, funeral, baptism, etc without a full mass, ever. Not sure why this would be presented as an option. But I'm not a regular church-goer, so someone else might have experienced it. I've never heard of any ceremony held in the church that doesn't include mass. Just wondering why you were willing to get married in a Catholic church if you're that against mass being held? To me it's just rituals and blessings, which I enjoy. You go to church, you know it's at least an hour. I had both my children baptized in the Catholic church but I was not married in the church. My husband is an atheist and I'm more of an agnostic who definitely enjoys the pomp and ceremony but I didn't want my husband to have to attend any classes or make vows about the Lord that he didn't mean. We did attend pre-baptism teaching with a wonderful deacon, Deacon Don. He was just the kindest man, so open and welcoming. He wanted to be a priest, he said, but he also wanted a family so he became a deacon. He was what the church should be about. He died of cancer a couple years after baptizing our daughter. The priest who baptized our son was awful and told me if my husband loved me he'd agree to be married in the church (we were married by that point, but not in a church). That was the last time I went there. |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 14, 2023 22:50:37 GMT
I got married 40 years ago in a Catholic Church. My husband was raised Catholic, but no longer participated. I agreed to get married in the Catholic Church with the agreement that there would not be a mass. Well, guess what, there was a mass. I was pissed. I was not raised in any religion, but was raised to be a good, moral human being. It further turned me against the Catholic religion. I've never once been to any wedding, funeral, baptism, etc without a full mass, ever. Not sure why this would be presented as an option. But I'm not a regular church-goer, so someone else might have experienced it. I've never heard of any ceremony held in the church that doesn't include mass. Just wondering why you were willing to get married in a Catholic church if you're that against mass being held? To me it's just rituals and blessings, which I enjoy. You go to church, you know it's at least an hour. I had both my children baptized in the Catholic church but I was not married in the church. My husband is an atheist and I'm more of an agnostic who definitely enjoys the pomp and ceremony but I didn't want my husband to have to attend any classes or make vows about the Lord that he didn't mean. We did attend pre-baptism teaching with a wonderful deacon, Deacon Don. He was just the kindest man, so open and welcoming. He wanted to be a priest, he said, but he also wanted a family so he became a deacon. He was what the church should be about. He died of cancer a couple years after baptizing our daughter. The priest who baptized our son was awful and told me if my husband loved me he'd agree to be married in the church (we were married by that point, but not in a church). That was the last time I went there. I would assume that she would have not been offered communion. At my wedding, being singled out, that would have pissed me off. As a Lutheran, I thought the bread & wine were symbols of the body & the blood (having conversations with my dad a year or so ago, he was like what are you talking about, we learned they ARE the body & blood - Catholics believe they transform literally into the body & blood) but Catholics do NOT which is why (I think?) the Priests must consume all of the "leftover" wafers & wine. I don't think you can just pour it out or get rid of it once it has been transformed. Would they have known if I had rolled up and presented myself at the alter? probably not, and I don't think they would have denied me, but I would have known. which is why I respectfully never took part of Catholic Eucharist. I have been baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran Church. As someone said upthread, the Catholic church should acknowledge a Christian baptism, but I'm not sure about my Confirmation. If I go to a Catholic mass, there are little cards in the back of the pews or things printed in the bulletins that basically tell me that only CATHOLICS are invited to the Catholic Eucharist, and ask me to refrain from partaking. |
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Jan 15, 2023 17:01:46 GMT
I got married 40 years ago in a Catholic Church. My husband was raised Catholic, but no longer participated. I agreed to get married in the Catholic Church with the agreement that there would not be a mass. Well, guess what, there was a mass. I was pissed. I was not raised in any religion, but was raised to be a good, moral human being. It further turned me against the Catholic religion. I've never once been to any wedding, funeral, baptism, etc without a full mass, ever. Not sure why this would be presented as an option. But I'm not a regular church-goer, so someone else might have experienced it. I've never heard of any ceremony held in the church that doesn't include mass. Just wondering why you were willing to get married in a Catholic church if you're that against mass being held? To me it's just rituals and blessings, which I enjoy. You go to church, you know it's at least an hour. I had both my children baptized in the Catholic church but I was not married in the church. My husband is an atheist and I'm more of an agnostic who definitely enjoys the pomp and ceremony but I didn't want my husband to have to attend any classes or make vows about the Lord that he didn't mean. We did attend pre-baptism teaching with a wonderful deacon, Deacon Don. He was just the kindest man, so open and welcoming. He wanted to be a priest, he said, but he also wanted a family so he became a deacon. He was what the church should be about. He died of cancer a couple years after baptizing our daughter. The priest who baptized our son was awful and told me if my husband loved me he'd agree to be married in the church (we were married by that point, but not in a church). That was the last time I went there. Again, priest by priest basis. I’ve been to weddings and funerals that were not full masses. My son and all four nieces and nephews were baptized in a separate ceremony; it was on a Sunday after Mass was over but the ceremony itself did not include a Mass. When I married I was given the option of a Catholic wedding ceremony with or without a Mass. I did choose the full Mass, but again I had the choice. We were in between priests in our parish at the time; had the old priest still been stationed at our parish I would not have been given the choice. The priest that married us didn’t mean my fiancé until the rehearsal. |
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Post by mellowyellow on Jan 15, 2023 21:06:27 GMT
The church and wedding would be the least of my concerns. He doesn’t sound like someone I would want my DD to marry.
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Post by monklady123 on Jan 15, 2023 21:11:36 GMT
My mom & dad got married in the Catholic Church 50 years ago. My dad is Lutheran, my mom was Catholic. They had the wedding in her church, nut were not allowed to have a mass. They had the Lutheran Pastor there to bless the marriage. They were not going to continue as a Catholic couple, so they did not have to promise to raise any kids Catholic. If your DD was going to continue as Catholic, I would think there would be a lot more "rules." This is what my brother and sil did about 15 years ago. She wanted to get married in her church and her mom pushed for it as well. Both my brother and sil had decided that when they had kids they wouldn’t be raised Catholic. Their boys were baptized as Lutherans when they were babies. However, the boys now go to a Catholic school and were recently baptized there as well…but they are still members of a Lutheran church. Crazy I know. Are you sure they were actually baptized? Not just "welcomed into the school" or something like that? Because the Catholic Church recognizes all trinitarian baptisms and the Lutherans are definitely in that group. The main instance of when you'll hear of "re-baptism" is when someone joins an evangelical-type church that does not recognize infant baptism. For them, if someone was baptized as an infant and wants to join that church as an older child or adult they will have to be baptized again. |
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Post by Laurie on Jan 15, 2023 22:03:32 GMT
This is what my brother and sil did about 15 years ago. She wanted to get married in her church and her mom pushed for it as well. Both my brother and sil had decided that when they had kids they wouldn’t be raised Catholic. Their boys were baptized as Lutherans when they were babies. However, the boys now go to a Catholic school and were recently baptized there as well…but they are still members of a Lutheran church. Crazy I know. Are you sure they were actually baptized? Not just "welcomed into the school" or something like that? Because the Catholic Church recognizes all trinitarian baptisms and the Lutherans are definitely in that group. The main instance of when you'll hear of "re-baptism" is when someone joins an evangelical-type church that does not recognize infant baptism. For them, if someone was baptized as an infant and wants to join that church as an older child or adult they will have to be baptized again. I will have to double check exactly what it was. They were not able to take communion with their classmates during mass so they had to do something (I thought baptized) so they could join their classmates. |
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Post by Basket1lady on Jan 15, 2023 22:32:23 GMT
I've never once been to any wedding, funeral, baptism, etc without a full mass, ever. Not sure why this would be presented as an option. But I'm not a regular church-goer, so someone else might have experienced it. I've never heard of any ceremony held in the church that doesn't include mass. Just wondering why you were willing to get married in a Catholic church if you're that against mass being held? To me it's just rituals and blessings, which I enjoy. You go to church, you know it's at least an hour. I had both my children baptized in the Catholic church but I was not married in the church. My husband is an atheist and I'm more of an agnostic who definitely enjoys the pomp and ceremony but I didn't want my husband to have to attend any classes or make vows about the Lord that he didn't mean. We did attend pre-baptism teaching with a wonderful deacon, Deacon Don. He was just the kindest man, so open and welcoming. He wanted to be a priest, he said, but he also wanted a family so he became a deacon. He was what the church should be about. He died of cancer a couple years after baptizing our daughter. The priest who baptized our son was awful and told me if my husband loved me he'd agree to be married in the church (we were married by that point, but not in a church). That was the last time I went there. I would assume that she would have not been offered communion. At my wedding, being singled out, that would have pissed me off. As a Lutheran, I thought the bread & wine were symbols of the body & the blood (having conversations with my dad a year or so ago, he was like what are you talking about, we learned they ARE the body & blood - Catholics believe they transform literally into the body & blood) but Catholics do NOT which is why (I think?) the Priests must consume all of the "leftover" wafers & wine. I don't think you can just pour it out or get rid of it once it has been transformed. There are many reasons why someone would chose to be married in the Catholic Church but not have a mass. The awkwardness of one spouse not taking communion, family members being uncomfortable with it, the length of the mass, etc. It's a personal decision, just like any other. Lutherans do not believe in transubstantiation. They believe that the body and blood are present in, with, and under the bread and wine. Catholics believe in transubstantiation and that the bread and wine are transformed into the body and blood. The priests do not need to consume all of the wine or eucharists, but it does need to be consumed. Anyone can finish the wine, but it cannot be poured down a sacrarium (special sinks which lead directly into the ground and not a sewer system.) Any washing up after mass is also done in these special sinks. The hosts are kept in a tabernacle, which is generally kept locked, and can be used for the next celebration of the eucharist. Wine can be technically kept there as well, but usually it isn't because it's easier to be spilled than the eucharists. |
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Post by Merge on Jan 15, 2023 22:50:20 GMT
Are you sure they were actually baptized? Not just "welcomed into the school" or something like that? Because the Catholic Church recognizes all trinitarian baptisms and the Lutherans are definitely in that group. The main instance of when you'll hear of "re-baptism" is when someone joins an evangelical-type church that does not recognize infant baptism. For them, if someone was baptized as an infant and wants to join that church as an older child or adult they will have to be baptized again. I will have to double check exactly what it was. They were not able to take communion with their classmates during mass so they had to do something (I thought baptized) so they could join their classmates. They might have had to make a first communion (with requisite prep classes) before they could take communion generally. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 15, 2023 23:23:01 GMT
I find some of these diocese differences interesting. With a giant Irish and Hispanic family, I've attended a zillion (only slight exaggeration) Catholic weddings, baptisms and funerals and one ONE was a full mass - a wedding. I've never seen a baptism that isn't a separate ceremony after mass and it wasn't even offered as an option when baptizing my children (two different states for the record). Actually I do think I've been to a Catholic funeral - or two as a child - but haven't in at least 30 years.
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And very well said. Another cradle Catholic here and a catechist (religious ed teacher). There are some things that are up to the individual parish/priest/diocese—such as pre Cana counseling. Some dioceses are more strict or lenient than others and some parishes within a diocese can be more strict/lenient. 
