stittsygirl
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 4:47:00 GMT
the monetary refund from a cruise they didn’t end up taking, because my father passed the week before they were supposed to leave. That’s the simplified version. The full version is a long, sordid story I won’t go into, but I’d really love to tell her to jump in a deep lake with a heavy rock 🙄.
My father put a Mexican cruise for both he and the girlfriend on his credit card. Then he passed unexpectedly a week before the trip. My sister, the estate executor, has been working to get a refund on the cruise since they weren’t able to take the trip. The girlfriend has no legal right to anything of my father’s, nor any of the responsibility of dealing with his estate. He left behind tens of thousand of dollars of unsecured debt, a reverse mortgage on a neglected home that we’ll be lucky to break even on when it sells, and a small life insurance policy that he left to our former stepmother (likely out of guilt - he cheated on her with the girlfriend).
My sister found out today that we’ll be receiving about 75% back in a refund on the cruise, approximately $4500. She also found out that the girlfriend expects that money to go to her because the cruise was supposed to be a Christmas gift from my father. You’d think she’d be happy enough with the tens of thousands in jewelry and artwork my dad bought her over the years (we have the receipts), but apparently not. I say it legally goes into the estate to satisfy the creditors once the negotiations are done.
Her lawyer says it’s a gray area. I’m trying to understand that 🤷♀️. Any input or similar experience out there?
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 14, 2023 4:51:03 GMT
Sorry about your loss..
No is a good answer!!
Unless she can prove she paid for the cruise, the monies should go to the estate.
Is she in the will? But of course if there is money the outstanding bills should be paid first.
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 14, 2023 5:01:49 GMT
I don't know -- I feel like if your attorney tells you it's "a gray area" it's pretty unlikely they think you have a good case.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope very soon you will never hear from her again.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Post by used2scrap on Feb 14, 2023 5:05:03 GMT
Wouldn’t the refund go to the credit card? I’d think it’d just apply to the outstanding balance.
Sorry you’re having to deal with this on top of the loss of your father.
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Post by lisacharlotte on Feb 14, 2023 5:06:53 GMT
what gray area? the money is part of his estate and will be used to pay for any outstanding debt or inherited by the beneficiaries. as executor your sister is responsible for keeping the estate intact until probate is complete. she can't arbitrarily decide to give out cash to his girlfriend.
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gramma
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Post by gramma on Feb 14, 2023 5:07:53 GMT
Someone should tell her to pound sand. Sorry - feeling feisty tonight
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Post by katlaw on Feb 14, 2023 5:26:03 GMT
Her lawyer says it’s a gray area. No. It is not really a gray area. The executor sells assets, recovers money such as this cruise, etc. and everything goes into an estate bank account. If he paid for the cruise with his credit card and the refund is coming to him than it belongs to the estate. They then pay any outstanding debt. If there is any money left over it is distributed according to the will. She has no legal right to demand this money and the executor has a legal obligation to put the money into an estate account and pay the debt first. Things might be a little different depending on where you are but she has no right to that money, gift or not. |
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Post by lucyg on Feb 14, 2023 5:27:13 GMT
I don't know -- I feel like if your attorney tells you it's "a gray area" it's pretty unlikely they think you have a good case. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope very soon you will never hear from her again. I thought she was saying it’s the girlfriend’s lawyer claiming it’s a gray area. Not their (the family’s) lawyer. |
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snyder
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Location: Colorado
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Post by snyder on Feb 14, 2023 5:37:56 GMT
Maybe it depends on if the state recognizes common law. Sorry you have to go through this while grieving the loss of your father. {{{Hugs}}}
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Post by MichyM on Feb 14, 2023 5:47:24 GMT
what gray area? the money is part of his estate and will be used to pay for any outstanding debt or inherited by the beneficiaries. as executor your sister is responsible for keeping the estate intact until probate is complete. she can't arbitrarily decide to give out cash to his girlfriend. Exactly that. |
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Gennifer
Drama Llama
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Post by Gennifer on Feb 14, 2023 5:50:28 GMT
Why do you say it “was supposed to be” a Christmas gift? Do you doubt what she is saying? Because, in my mind, if it was a Christmas gift she should get the refund. If he had spent $4500 on a piece of jewelry to give her for Christmas, the estate wouldn’t be able to return it to the store, but she could if she wanted to, for a credit.
Also, does “her lawyer” refer to your sister’s lawyer or the girlfriend’s lawyer?
I’m sorry for your loss.
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Post by MichyM on Feb 14, 2023 5:51:34 GMT
I think the only sticking point might be that she says it was a gift to her. Does she have proof of that? A card with a note inside, or someone else who heard/saw him give it to her? If not, I think katlaw and lisacharlotte are spot on. |
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samantha25
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Post by samantha25 on Feb 14, 2023 5:53:11 GMT
Makes no sense for the gf to get the money, even if it is a gift. They weren't able to go on the trip. Kind of like an engagement ring contract if the couple breaks up. Ring goes back to the giver. The gf can't just receive money. The money goes toward the debt.
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stittsygirl
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 6:12:02 GMT
Her lawyer says it’s a gray area. No. It is not really a gray area. The executor sells assets, recovers money such as this cruise, etc. and everything goes into an estate bank account. If he paid for the cruise with his credit card and the refund is coming to him than it belongs to the estate. They then pay any outstanding debt. If there is any money left over it is distributed according to the will. She has no legal right to demand this money and the executor has a legal obligation to put the money into an estate account and pay the debt first. Things might be a little different depending on where you are but she has no right to that money, gift or not. That’s exactly what I thought. My dad unfortunately died without a will (he had NO final plans in place whatsoever, and was really just living with a finances-and-children-be damned attitude the last few years of his life). My sister has done well so far as the executor, and she’s the only one speaking to the girlfriend. I think she’s getting worn down though. It was my sister’s lawyer who said it was a gray area, but I’m not sure if he was understanding the full story. My sister plans on taking a small break before she talks with the girlfriend again. Since the CC account was closed after my dad’s death the cruise line will be cutting a check - I’m assuming in the name of dad’s estate. My sister will put it in the estate account and then continue to work with the creditors. I think the girlfriend just thinks we’ll hand her the equivalent in cash. Once we get the house sold we’ll have a better idea of who gets paid, when. We’ve already sold about $20K in the assets he left, but there’s nothing left that’s worth anything. Thank you everyone for your input and condolences. My sister has been doing most of the work on this and has been amazing. I’m three states away and have only been able to assist from afar, except for the couple of times my husband and I traveled there to help clean out the house. I have grieved the loss of my dad, but he had also kept his distance in the past 18 years in favor of the girlfriend and her family. My husband and I did take an Alaskan cruise with him in 2021 and I’m grateful we did. Lately though, I and my siblings have been feeling more and more angry and confused at the literal and financial mess he had to have known he would be leaving us ☹️. |
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stittsygirl
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 6:17:56 GMT
I think the only sticking point might be that she says it was a gift to her. Does she have proof of that? A card with a note inside, or someone else who heard/saw him give it to her? If not, I think katlaw and lisacharlotte are spot on. There’s nothing she’s shown or that we’ve found that says it was a gift to her, only her saying it was verbalized by him and the fact it was going to be taken over Christmas. They’ve taken several trips together in the past 18 years, and I believe he paid for a lot of them. |
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Post by malibou on Feb 14, 2023 6:30:28 GMT
I'm very sorry for your loss and hope that the happy memories you have of him see you thru the rougher days.
My Dh is an atty, he definitely does not see this as a gray area situation. The money should go to the estate. He also added that her request seems tacky.
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Post by sunshine on Feb 14, 2023 10:11:18 GMT
If the refund amount is $4500 for a trip the two of them were to take, I’d think, if anything, half of that would be what he was spending on her and she might be entitled to that? Maybe.
I can’t believe she even asked.
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Post by littlemama on Feb 14, 2023 11:09:34 GMT
You said that your sister was working with the creditors. Will there even be anythinf left in the estate once that is done?
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Post by elaine on Feb 14, 2023 11:10:22 GMT
First, I’m so sorry for your loss. (((Hugs)))
Second, if she has been living with him for more than 10 years (you mentioned he’s been with her 18 years, but I don’t know the living arrangements), the state they live in may see her as a common law spouse, even though they don’t have a marriage license. I will guess not because you haven’t mentioned it, but I thought that I’d throw it out there.
Ethically, of course the money should go to cover your father’s debts. Legally, because I don’t know the state they are in and also I am not an attorney, I don’t know.
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Post by katlaw on Feb 14, 2023 11:28:44 GMT
My dad unfortunately died without a will (he had NO final plans in place whatsoever, and was really just living with a finances-and-children-be damned attitude the last few years of his life). My sister has done well so far as the executor, and she’s the only one speaking to the girlfriend. I think she’s getting worn down though. It was my sister’s lawyer who said it was a gray area, but I’m not sure if he was understanding the full story. My sister plans on taking a small break before she talks with the girlfriend again. Sorry to hear this, my father passed away and we could not find the will. It certainly makes things more difficult to settle. Even if your father's girlfriend is entitled to estate money because they were living common law she is entitled to a share of the estate after everything is settled. The cruise refund would still go to the estate bank account, debts paid and anything remaining split between the heirs according to state law. Where I live if there is no will and there are adult children and a spouse (or common law spouse) that is not the parent of the children the estate is divided in half. 50% to the spouse and 50% divided among the adult children. If this girlfriend were entitled to half of the cruise refund she would also be responsible for half of the debt. Sorry you and your sister have to deal with this and losing your dad. I agree with gramma, your sister should tell the girlfriend to pound sand. |
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 12:31:50 GMT
My dad unfortunately died without a will (he had NO final plans in place whatsoever, and was really just living with a finances-and-children-be damned attitude the last few years of his life). My sister has done well so far as the executor, and she’s the only one speaking to the girlfriend. I think she’s getting worn down though. It was my sister’s lawyer who said it was a gray area, but I’m not sure if he was understanding the full story. My sister plans on taking a small break before she talks with the girlfriend again. Sorry to hear this, my father passed away and we could not find the will. It certainly makes things more difficult to settle. Even if your father's girlfriend is entitled to estate money because they were living common law she is entitled to a share of the estate after everything is settled. The cruise refund would still go to the estate bank account, debts paid and anything remaining split between the heirs according to state law. Where I live if there is no will and there are adult children and a spouse (or common law spouse) that is not the parent of the children the estate is divided in half. 50% to the spouse and 50% divided among the adult children. If this girlfriend were entitled to half of the cruise refund she would also be responsible for half of the debt. Sorry you and your sister have to deal with this and losing your dad. I agree with gramma, your sister should tell the girlfriend to pound sand. Thank you everyone! There is no common law issue here, fortunately. Even though they were together on and off for eighteen years, they never lived together and never had joint accounts in anything. She hasn’t even tried to go there because, like you said, she’d likely share responsibility for the debt. If there is anything left after the sale of the house, satisfying the creditors, and paying the expenses related to the handling of the estate, my four siblings and I will split it five ways. That’s the only good thing that’s come out of this - we and our families have reconnected again and it’s been very good 😊. |
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Post by epeanymous on Feb 14, 2023 12:56:45 GMT
I don't know -- I feel like if your attorney tells you it's "a gray area" it's pretty unlikely they think you have a good case. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I hope very soon you will never hear from her again. I thought she was saying it’s the girlfriend’s lawyer claiming it’s a gray area. Not their (the family’s) lawyer. Right--it sounds to me like even the girlfriend's attorney doesn't think she is entitled to anything. Sorry I was unclear. |
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Post by lisae on Feb 14, 2023 13:05:04 GMT
I would guess her only claim is probably that one ticket was in her name. But without anything written from him to her, I can't see how she could prove that it was a gift, especially since she never actually received the value of it. The jewelry she has received in the past would be looked at as a gift to her but the artwork? Is the artwork in the home they shared?
I'd let her sue if she thinks she's entitled and then counter that the artwork was bought for the 2 of them and she should have to return half of it so you can sell it and pay his bills. That would likely get her to back off at least.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 13:33:21 GMT
I would guess her only claim is probably that one ticket was in her name. But without anything written from him to her, I can't see how she could prove that it was a gift, especially since she never actually received the value of it. The jewelry she has received in the past would be looked at as a gift to her but the artwork? Is the artwork in the home they shared? I'd let her sue if she thinks she's entitled and then counter that the artwork was bought for the 2 of them and she should have to return half of it so you can sell it and pay his bills. That would likely get her to back off at least. They never lived together or had any joint accounts. She did have a key to the house, but we changed the locks after the police had to break in to find my dad (boy did that set her off). It’s frustrating knowing how much he spent on the relationship, but we never even thought to ask for the jewelry or artwork back. We gave her the Christmas gifts that were marked for her and in my dad’s house. |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Feb 14, 2023 15:00:44 GMT
Why do you say it “was supposed to be” a Christmas gift? Do you doubt what she is saying? Because, in my mind, if it was a Christmas gift she should get the refund. If he had spent $4500 on a piece of jewelry to give her for Christmas, the estate wouldn’t be able to return it to the store, but she could if she wanted to, for a credit.Serious question tho - if he purchased jewerly for Xmas and passed away before he gave it to her, couldn't they (the estate) return it or sell it? It was a gift ungiven and unless it was wrapped and named who to give to, I would think the estate has control over the gift. Someone mentioned an engagement ring - same thing, except it sounds like if the ring was given and the engagement broken off, it should have gone back to the estate? |
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Post by disneypal on Feb 14, 2023 15:31:05 GMT
She's crazy for making such a request. She knows that he put it on his CC and that the refund will go back to paying off that debt, among other things. She is not entitled to it. How greedy and disrespectful of his family.
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Post by bluebird71 on Feb 14, 2023 15:37:30 GMT
I'm so sorry for your loss. And for her loss as well, if she was With him for 18 years, she was serious about him.
But honestly, creditors who have some kind of signed contract [CC application, mortgage, loans] have first dibs on all his assets. His creditors get paid before his own children or his family or any heirs in his will. So a girlfriend doesn't get the money.
What a sad situation. I am so sorry.
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Feb 14, 2023 15:41:21 GMT
My sister told her this morning that the money was going back into the estate. Girlfriend told her “thank you” and hopefully it will be left at that.
Thanks again for the input and condolences ❤️.
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Post by mikklynn on Feb 14, 2023 17:09:57 GMT
I'm sorry for your loss and for the mess you and your family are left with. Giant hugs!
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Post by peace on Feb 14, 2023 17:39:04 GMT
if you have the refund check made out to the estate- that will make it really tough for her to get. Does she have anything like a Christmas card that says "Your gift this year is a cruise..."  |
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