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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 13:38:20 GMT
I thought this article was worth sharing here: What Our Kids Lose When We Force Them to Achieve When I was 12, I disappeared into my bedroom with a $40 folk guitar and a giant book of Beatle songs, with elementary, large-type “E-Z” chord diagrams to follow. I had no musical gift, as a series of failed music lessons had assured me — it was actually the teachers who assured me; the lessons were merely dull — and no real musical training. My fingers stung as I tried to press down on the strings without making them buzz, and my left hand ached as I tried, and for a long time failed, stretching it across the neck. Nonetheless, I worked my way through “Rain” (abbreviated to two chords) and “Love Me Do” (three) and finally “Yellow Submarine” (four chords, or was it five?) and discovered by myself the matchless thrill of homemade musical harmony.
No one asked me to do this, and surely no one was sorry the door was closed as I strummed and stumbled along after the nirvana of these simplified songs. But the sense of happiness I felt that week — genuine happiness, rooted in absorption in something outside myself — has stayed with me.
Fifty years later, I am still not a very good guitar player, but that week’s work, and the months and years of self-directed practice on the instrument that followed it, became a touchstone of sorts for me and a model and foundation for almost every meaningful thing I’ve done since. It gave me confidence, often wavering but never entirely extinguished, that perseverance and passion and patience can make one master any task.
So it seems suitable at this season, as the school year ends and graduates walk out into the world, most thinking hard about what they might do with their lives, to talk about a distinction that I first glimpsed in that room and in those chord patterns. It’s the difference between achievement and accomplishment.
Achievement is the completion of the task imposed from outside — the reward often being a path to the next achievement. Accomplishment is the end point of an engulfing activity we’ve chosen, whose reward is the sudden rush of fulfillment, the sense of happiness that rises uniquely from absorption in a thing outside ourselves.
Our social world often conspires to denigrate accomplishment in favor of the rote work of achievement. All our observation tells us that young people, particularly, are perpetually being pushed toward the next test or the “best” grammar school, high school or college they can get into. We invent achievement tests designed to be completely immune to coaching, and therefore we have ever more expensive coaches to break the code of the noncoachable achievement test. (Those who can’t afford such luxuries are simply left out.) We drive these young people toward achievement, tasks that lead only to other tasks, into something resembling not so much a rat race as a rat maze, with another hit of sugar water awaiting around the bend but the path to the center — or the point of it all — never made plain.
My own accomplishment of learning those Beatles songs seems to echo in the experience of almost everyone I know. My wife recalls learning to sew her own clothes by the same process I undertook — breaking it down into small, manageable tasks, getting the pattern, choosing the fabric, working the machine, until you find yourself making something like music — in the clothing maker’s case, wearing that beautiful thing you’ve made. The experience of breaking down and building up that she learned then informed her later professional work as a film editor and producer.
Sometimes the process actually produces a vocation: Another friend recalls struggling to draw anything as a kid — Superman, Spider-Man — and being astonished by his own growing skill as each week one more piece of the world got decrypted on paper. He became a realist painter. But most often these early self-directed obsessions produce not a job to earn from but a platform to leap from — they produce a sense of fulfillment through passionate perseverance that crosses over into the most seemingly alien enterprises.
As a parent now, I’ve seen the pure satisfaction of accomplishment, of a particular passion arduously pursued, arise in my own children. Yet I’ve also seen it actively discouraged by the well-meaning schools they attended: More than a decade ago, my then 12-year-old son, Luke, a boy enchanted by Dai Vernon’s card tricks, a pack forever in his hands, found that the many hours he’s spent learning the Erdnase color change was not a necessarily rewarded act in eighth grade. I fought a good fight on his behalf to cut down on homework — a fight that landed eventually on the front page of this newspaper — exactly because homework was cutting into his magic.
I may have been naïve, but I was, surely, not wholly wrong; the steps he has taken in life that led him eventually to pursue graduate degrees in philosophy began in the pursuit of those illusions. The concentration and subtlety of mind required to master Wittgenstein’s gnomic parables puzzles can be rooted more readily in the art of “twisting the aces” than in getting straight A’s. Self-directed accomplishment, no matter how absurd it may look to outsiders or how partial it may be, can become a foundation of our sense of self and of our sense of possibility. Losing ourselves in an all-absorbing action, we become ourselves.
I know there are objections to his view: At some moment, all accomplishment, however self-directed, has to become professional, lucrative, real. We can’t play with cards or chords forever. And surely many of the things that our kids are asked to achieve can lead to self-discovery; taught well, they may learn to love new and unexpected things for their own sake. The trick may lie in the teaching. My sister Alison Gopnik, a developmental psychologist and author, puts this well: If we taught our kids softball the way we teach them science, they would hate softball as much as they hate science, but if we taught them science as we teach them softball, by practice and absorption, they might love both.
Another objection is that accomplishment is just the name people of good fortune give to things that they have the privilege of doing, which achievement has already put them in a place to pursue. But this is to accept, unconsciously, exactly the distinction between major and minor, significant and insignificant tasks, that social coercion — what we used to call, quaintly but not wrongly, “the system” — has always been there to perpetuate.
Pursuit of a resistant task, if persevered in stubbornly and passionately at any age, even if only for a short time, generates a kind of cognitive opiate that has no equivalent. There are many drugs that we swallow or inject in our veins; this is one drug that we produce in our brains, and to good effect. The hobbyist or retiree taking a course in batik or yoga, who might be easily patronized by achievers, has rocket fuel in her hands. Indeed, the beautiful paradox is that pursuing things we may do poorly can produce the sense of absorption, which is all that happiness is, while persisting in those we already do well does not.
The pursuit of accomplishment, what I call the real work, never ends and always surprises. I learned in that chord-building week so long ago that if you simply lifted one finger from the C chord, you got the most tender and poignant harmony. I didn’t know then that it was a major seventh chord, favorite of the bossa-nova masters, but I later learned that Paul McCartney, like me, didn’t know that’s what it was, either, when he first made the shape and referred to it simply as “the pretty chord.” From the most gifted to the least, we are brothers and sisters in the pursuit of accomplishment and our stubborn self-propelled decoding of its mysteries. That’s our real human achievement.I spent some time reading the comments and they were very interesting. Talked about all sorts of things, from socioeconomic status, time, capitalism, meritocracy, screen time, boredom, etc. I thought that it might be fun to see what some of your takes on this article were. Because after reading some of the comments, I think I have a little more nuance to what my opinion is vs. when I read the article initially. |
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Post by epeanymous on May 17, 2023 14:13:24 GMT
It's funny because I always describe myself as a Type A- personality, because I work a lot and try to do the best I can and fit a lot into my day, but any sense of being in a competition or trying to get an award, and it completely demotivates me and I just want to watch true crime TV and ear chips.
I think it is because I value accomplishment but not achievement, in the terms you describe, and achievement always feels to me like I've pleased people with power or won a silly game, disconnected from having done something meaningful.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 14:34:47 GMT
It's funny because I always describe myself as a Type A- personality, because I work a lot and try to do the best I can and fit a lot into my day, but any sense of being in a competition or trying to get an award, and it completely demotivates me and I just want to watch true crime TV and ear chips. I think it is because I value accomplishment but not achievement, in the terms you describe, and achievement always feels to me like I've pleased people with power or won a silly game, disconnected from having done something meaningful. This is a very interesting point of view and I think one of the things the author was getting at. I grew up in a situation where I felt pressured to achieve. Even with activities I loved, I felt like I had to excel to make them worthwhile pursuits. It took me a very long time to untangle this thinking as an adult. I had a therapist who needed to reinforce to me over and over again, process vs. product focus. I enjoy the process of doing things so much more at this point. I no longer hate something when I hit a point of frustration and can discern when I will find value in persisting and when it is flat out too hard for someone with my skill level and my skill level isn't likely to ever be at the point to overcome it. (This is rare). But again, I had to have a therapist work me through this and I still need to work my own mind through it on the regular. |
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Post by tmarschall on May 17, 2023 15:26:59 GMT
Call it process vs. product, or journey vs. destination, but I think helping young people (or anyone that the lessons are in the learning, not the test, sets them up better for the joy of lifelong learning. I haven't read the comments yet.
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on May 17, 2023 15:41:15 GMT
Interesting article. For myself, it's always been the journey being more important than the destination although I've only realized that as an adult. It's all about the learning of a new skill or technique. Once I learn/master something, I become bored and move on to the next thing. It is why I rarely ever use a quilt or garment pattern a second time. It's never been about being the best, winning awards, etc, but more the satisfaction that I get from conquering the skill/technique. Will go back later today and read the comments.
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Post by katlady on May 17, 2023 16:18:28 GMT
I wonder if this relates to people telling crafters “So, what are you going to do with this when you are finished?” Rather than just praising their accomplishment of completing a project, of the skill that they used, they are looking to see what the “achievement” is.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 16:25:19 GMT
I want to direct the conversation a bit. Most of us are mothers, most of us are in the middle class - upper middle class socioeconomic bracket. Does anyone want to discuss what their approach was with their kids? And now that they are grown, did it work? What application might this have for schools? Do socioeconomics have anything to do with it?
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 16:29:07 GMT
that the lessons are in the learning, not the test, sets them up better for the joy of lifelong learning. I agree with you on this point, however, just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't there be broad educational standards and exposure despite the fact that it might not be something someone loved to learn? I mean we can't let love be the only guide for children. There must be some expectations of them and acceptance of the fact that they are really not going to love a lot of what they have to do. I get that some people are rock stars and that's all well and good, but some of us have to be accountants (just kidding, I'm an accountant) doing the grunt work and playing bass for fun only. |
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Post by tmarschall on May 17, 2023 16:59:41 GMT
that the lessons are in the learning, not the test, sets them up better for the joy of lifelong learning. I agree with you on this point, however, just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't there be broad educational standards and exposure despite the fact that it might not be something someone loved to learn? I mean we can't let love be the only guide for children. There must be some expectations of them and acceptance of the fact that they are really not going to love a lot of what they have to do. I get that some people are rock stars and that's all well and good, but some of us have to be accountants (just kidding, I'm an accountant) doing the grunt work and playing bass for fun only. I see life-long learning in both arenas...professional and personal. I'm not technically a mother, so I will talk about my students. As social workers we have a mandate for continuing education and professional development. But I want my students to WANT to stay current in the field, to have a curiosity for the world they work and live in, to better understand how we can help people as we learn more about changes in our society. Requiring g ceus for licensure is necessary, but as a professor it's not sufficient. I want them to love learning, not just for the degree, the license, the pay bump or promotion(achievements, outer recognition), but because people's stories are different and exciting and learning new stuff is too. The personal is probably easier to see...the article's examples were largely aimed at hobbies/discretionary time, which a lot of people, particularly non-white, non middle class people, don't have. |
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Post by tmarschall on May 17, 2023 17:06:00 GMT
that the lessons are in the learning, not the test, sets them up better for the joy of lifelong learning. I agree with you on this point, however, just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't there be broad educational standards and exposure despite the fact that it might not be something someone loved to learn? I mean we can't let love be the only guide for children. There must be some expectations of them and acceptance of the fact that they are really not going to love a lot of what they have to do. I get that some people are rock stars and that's all well and good, but some of us have to be accountants (just kidding, I'm an accountant) doing the grunt work and playing bass for fun only. Actually I'm not sure I addressed your question so I will take another stab at it. It reminds me of our earlier conversation, where we hoped there were students who were intrinsically motivated by the love of learning, and I said they may not be the majority, but they exist. I think the love of learning can often carry them through some of the stuff they may not enjoy (I'm looking at you, calculus!). The students who object the loudest to art classes and math and science or language requirements are often the ones who exclaim they will never use this stuff...they are so focused on gettibg the degree for the job and they want a direct line to usefulness or they aren't interested. The other students kind of get the point of a liberal arts education...okay, I may not talk about philosophy with my client, but it helped me to learn to look at things from another framework or perspective and I can appreciate that for what it is. |
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Post by ntsf on May 17, 2023 17:15:55 GMT
well.. I was always about the process.. and in the land of high grade expectations, my kids had mixed success. but I raised a group of readers, of people highly curious about the world around them.. and they are good people, honest, hard working and full of humor.
and one is becoming an accountant.. wants a job that will not get in the way of life.. which includes camping, skiing, and playing her tuba. she also studied russian for 8 yrs, bass guitar for 6 yrs, and enjoys life.
her brother.. is a bartender, a consistent reader.. and is really interested in physics. and took 4 yrs of mandarin chinese in high school. and is mostly happy and supports his highly work competitive wife.
so for me, achievements were a sideline pursuit. and being good people interested in the world much more important
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Post by ScrapbookMyLife on May 17, 2023 18:46:50 GMT
For me.....
"Achievement" means aspiring to do something.
"Accomplishment" means, I've achieved and completed what I intended to do.
I think, many kids and adults feel the pressure of expectations. Self imposed or others are imposing on you.
Some Parents expect compliance in regards to whatever the expectations are >> good grades, doing chores, performing well in an extracurricular activity.
Some people expect perfect, even though there's really no such thing as "perfect".
One can feel pressure and stress by one or more expectations.
For some(self imposed or other people imposed), the achievement and accomplishment are never enough. There is always an expectation of "more" >> now go the next level, do the next thing, win the next ballgame, get a better score next time, etc..
I used to be someone who stressed, then I change things in my life and now I am "whatever".
I don't put pressure on myself to achieve or accomplish. It will get done or accomplished, when it gets done. I will celebrate my accomplishment(s) in that moment. For me personally, it makes the achievement part easier.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 19:31:53 GMT
I agree with you on this point, however, just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't there be broad educational standards and exposure despite the fact that it might not be something someone loved to learn? I mean we can't let love be the only guide for children. There must be some expectations of them and acceptance of the fact that they are really not going to love a lot of what they have to do. I get that some people are rock stars and that's all well and good, but some of us have to be accountants (just kidding, I'm an accountant) doing the grunt work and playing bass for fun only. I see life-long learning in both arenas...professional and personal. I'm not technically a mother, so I will talk about my students. As social workers we have a mandate for continuing education and professional development. But I want my students to WANT to stay current in the field, to have a curiosity for the world they work and live in, to better understand how we can help people as we learn more about changes in our society. Requiring g ceus for licensure is necessary, but as a professor it's not sufficient. I want them to love learning, not just for the degree, the license, the pay bump or promotion(achievements, outer recognition), but because people's stories are different and exciting and learning new stuff is too. The personal is probably easier to see...the article's examples were largely aimed at hobbies/discretionary time, which a lot of people, particularly non-white, non middle class people, don't have. I agree with you here. I consider myself a very curious sort of person who definitely wants to attain knowledge. Not just about my job, but about the world around me. Presumably most of the people in your classes are getting a professional skill set due to a personal interest, though. I like my job well enough and I do a pretty good job at it too, but it is not a passion thing. With that said, I am honestly the sort of person who could probably find contentedness with a lot of jobs simply because I find so many things interesting. Now, whether I could stick with them long-term, remains to be seen. I am doubtful I would be able to stick with my current job long-term. Circumstances may dictate that I have to, though. And in that case, I think I'd be not unlike a lot of people who have clear delineations between work and pleasure. And I'm wondering if the article was trying to parse out a difference between the two, or if the terms achievement and accomplishment apply differently to people who have passion about their jobs and those who don't. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 19:40:25 GMT
I agree with you on this point, however, just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't there be broad educational standards and exposure despite the fact that it might not be something someone loved to learn? I mean we can't let love be the only guide for children. There must be some expectations of them and acceptance of the fact that they are really not going to love a lot of what they have to do. I get that some people are rock stars and that's all well and good, but some of us have to be accountants (just kidding, I'm an accountant) doing the grunt work and playing bass for fun only. Actually I'm not sure I addressed your question so I will take another stab at it. It reminds me of our earlier conversation, where we hoped there were students who were intrinsically motivated by the love of learning, and I said they may not be the majority, but they exist. I think the love of learning can often carry them through some of the stuff they may not enjoy (I'm looking at you, calculus!). The students who object the loudest to art classes and math and science or language requirements are often the ones who exclaim they will never use this stuff...they are so focused on gettibg the degree for the job and they want a direct line to usefulness or they aren't interested. The other students kind of get the point of a liberal arts education...okay, I may not talk about philosophy with my client, but it helped me to learn to look at things from another framework or perspective and I can appreciate that for what it is. Yes, I was totally thinking about our off-board conversation too. I think there is value in a minimum base of knowledge. In my mind, it seems to be the purpose of a free K-12 education. But even within that framework, we have debates over learning things and their potential value, like algebra, foreign languages, physics, etc. I hate the idea that education is simply a stepping stone to a good paying job. If so many didn't have that mentality, we might be able to invest more taxpayer money into public universities. There was actually a comment that achievement is pushed much harder by the upper middle class due to economic reasons. They see their money as giving them status and don't want their children to lose what they consider to be status that comes with having money. There were a handful of commenters who said that the upper middle class are likely to submerge their kids in so many activities the kid never gets a quiet, creative moment to develop their own interests. I thought this perspective was interesting too Thank you for sharing and considering my comments. |
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Post by tmarschall on May 17, 2023 19:49:09 GMT
I agree with you here. I consider myself a very curious sort of person who definitely wants to attain knowledge. Not just about my job, but about the world around me. Presumably most of the people in your classes are getting a professional skill set due to a personal interest, though. I like my job well enough and I do a pretty good job at it too, but it is not a passion thing. With that said, I am honestly the sort of person who could probably find contentedness with a lot of jobs simply because I find so many things interesting. Now, whether I could stick with them long-term, remains to be seen. I am doubtful I would be able to stick with my current job long-term. Circumstances may dictate that I have to, though. And in that case, I think I'd be not unlike a lot of people who have clear delineations between work and pleasure. And I'm wondering if the article was trying to parse out a difference between the two, or if the terms achievement and accomplishment apply differently to people who have passion about their jobs and those who don't. [/quote] I agree that their may be a difference with people who experience a sense of "calling" or passion with their careers, and those who are more practical (?)...as in I have this skill set or this is lucrative and I can afford my rent, or support my family or hobbies. I think this is also why my social workers have a tough time with burnout. A lot of swk jobs don't support a clear delineation between work and off-work, and they take a lot, including the emotional impact, home with them. They have to be reminded that they need a life outside of work of friends and creativity and other pursuits. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 19:51:45 GMT
I like that ntsf! Your kids sound great and it sounds a lot like the same perspective I tried to raise mine with. I think too some of what is missing and many of the comments hit upon one side or another of them...is balance between achievement and accomplishment. Balance in knowing when to set an expectation, when to push a kid, when just to expose them to something, when to support them in an endeavor. As a parent I really tried hard for balance. I didn't always succeed. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 19:54:18 GMT
I agree with you here. I consider myself a very curious sort of person who definitely wants to attain knowledge. Not just about my job, but about the world around me. Presumably most of the people in your classes are getting a professional skill set due to a personal interest, though. I like my job well enough and I do a pretty good job at it too, but it is not a passion thing. With that said, I am honestly the sort of person who could probably find contentedness with a lot of jobs simply because I find so many things interesting. Now, whether I could stick with them long-term, remains to be seen. I am doubtful I would be able to stick with my current job long-term. Circumstances may dictate that I have to, though. And in that case, I think I'd be not unlike a lot of people who have clear delineations between work and pleasure. And I'm wondering if the article was trying to parse out a difference between the two, or if the terms achievement and accomplishment apply differently to people who have passion about their jobs and those who don't. I agree that their may be a difference with people who experience a sense of "calling" or passion with their careers, and those who are more practical (?)...as in I have this skill set or this is lucrative and I can afford my rent, or support my family or hobbies. I think this is also why my social workers have a tough time with burnout. A lot of swk jobs don't support a clear delineation between work and off-work, and they take a lot, including the emotional impact, home with them. They have to be reminded that they need a life outside of work of friends and creativity and other pursuits. [/quote] I can see this. This is a podcast called Redefining Rest for Public Health Professionals. I don't fall under that title but I still find some things of value in that podcast. Just wanted to throw that out there. I think a lot of "caring" professions get personally invested. I don't feel that way about my job. |
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Post by busy on May 17, 2023 20:13:18 GMT
I want to direct the conversation a bit. Most of us are mothers, most of us are in the middle class - upper middle class socioeconomic bracket. Does anyone want to discuss what their approach was with their kids? And now that they are grown, did it work? What application might this have for schools? Do socioeconomics have anything to do with it? I grew up being required to do all the things - to have the right extracurriculars, the right volunteer orgs, the right courses, the perfect grades, etc. - all to craft the perfect college application. And I did. I got in essentially everywhere. Lovely. I enjoyed a lot of it. There was achievement and accomplishment. And I was still severely depressed and suicidal by Thanksgiving of my senior year in college. I probably should have been diagnosed four or five years sooner, but my life was perfect - how could I possibly have been depressed? Impossible. We live in a reasonably affluent community and DS goes to good schools. As a direct result of my experiences, we parent very differently than I was parented. He is one of the very very few who is not scheduled to within an inch of his life. I get a lot of side eye from other moms (of course it's the moms). A lot of questions why such a smart kid isn't in this, that or the other thing. And aren't we worried he won't get into a good school? Shrug to both. He's chosen difficult courses, including plenty of AP classes, so he's hardly a slacker. He prefers to spend his free time pursuing interests that don't really align with school activities (he's super into stuff with Audubon Society, for example). He's not competing in robotics tournaments and science fairs. We're not shaping him into what we want; we're letting him figure out who he is. And it kind of scares me how rare that seems to be within our socioeconomic group. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 20:24:55 GMT
ScrapbookMyLife said: For some(self imposed or other people imposed), the achievement and accomplishment are never enough. There is always an expectation of "more" >> now go the next level, do the next thing, win the next ballgame, get a better score next time, etc.. Do you really think this is ever self imposed? Or do you think these are children who were compelled to achieve who have turned into adults who aren't self aware enough to connect that this isn't the best way to live? I'm just going to say it again, I was a naturally inquisitive kid. I am a naturally inquisitive adult. The expectations my dad put upon me for perfect behavior were intense. I still, at 47 years old, and with a whole legion of therapists behind me, struggle with the idea of achieving.
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Post by Darcy Collins on May 17, 2023 20:28:26 GMT
I think this article comes from extreme privilege - and honestly this site where the vast majority of the demographic is well above the medium income let alone the poverty line makes it hard to discuss. I grew up barely blue collar and my parents grew straight up poor. There is/was no sugar coating or pretending because at the end of the day bills had to be paid and food had to be put on the table. It may not be sexy and it may not be currently in vogue, but being able to feed your family and not being one paycheck away from eviction was plenty sexy enough for me to strive - call it achievement, call it accomplishment - my kids now have the luxury of pursing whatever they desire and feeling accomplished as they never have to worry about being homeless.
I actually really don't care about this stuff in the context of middle class families but it frustrates the hell out of me in the context of poor families and people discouraging them from pursuing careers that actually will pull them and their families out of poverty - and I see it all the time on college website. No don't study engineering - you clearly lovely philosophy - go for that - with zero idea what that means to an actual poor kid - it is not the same as the author's kid's journey and anyone who thinks it is has never actually been generationally poor.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 20:32:43 GMT
busy I could have written my story exactly the same as yours except I crashed and burned in my sophomore year. I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders because come hell or high water, I was going to be the first college graduate in my lineage. I tried very hard to take a balanced approach with my kids as a result of that. My kids also proved to be very strong willed and also neurodivergent. So things didn't always quite go the way I envisioned them. My dad will still say straight to my face that I didn't push my kids hard enough and I didn't discipline them enough. I thank you for sharing about what it is like within your world. Both outer and with your son. I also kind of love that he likes animals and puts his free time to the pursuit of birds.  Many of the commenters said there was a huge disparity in the way parents are parenting. You have the ones who are pushing so hard for their children to achieve on one side and parents on the other side who allow phones/games 9 hours a day on the other. Very few people actually talked about people somewhere in between. And several commenters blamed this on the widening economic disparities we are seeing within our society.
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Post by **GypsyGirl** on May 17, 2023 20:38:58 GMT
I wonder if this relates to people telling crafters “So, what are you going to do with this when you are finished?” Rather than just praising their accomplishment of completing a project, of the skill that they used, they are looking to see what the “achievement” is. Or even worse - you should start a business doing this (whatever skill/craft it is).  So much of our society seems to have lost the ability to do something for fun, enjoyment, learning. Everything needs to be turned into a side gig, monetized. I fell for that line of thinking for about 2 years when DD was in preschool. Sure I made a bit of money, but I also burned out on sewing. Once I quit, I did not touch my machine for almost 4 years. When I look back, all I feel is regret of that lost creative time, not the money I could have made. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 20:43:32 GMT
Darcy Collins I agree wholeheartedly with what you said. I grew up that same way. And both me and my parents were under the mistaken impression that a college degree, any college degree, was going to open up the doors to economic success. When you think about it from the perspective I have now, it is shocking just how ignorant we were. But we didn't have anyone around us who lived differently. Certainly no one in our family. I think about the different choices I might have made if I had a mentor who could have walked me through this. By luck of getting passed out of a whole lot of undergraduate courses due to my education coming in, I had a lot of requirements waived with no credit. So I had to fulfill credit requirements for graduation. Because of this, I was able to score two degrees for same number of credits that most people need to get one. My undergrad degrees are in political science and philosophy. I never made any decent money until I went back and got an MBA with my accounting concentration. My dad was honestly shocked what kind of salary I was offered at my first grown up job. And so was I. I could have worked alongside him at the steel mill for more than double. He believes that college degree was going to make me qualified for lucrative jobs. They didn't. And we had no idea going in.
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Post by ScrapbookMyLife on May 17, 2023 21:29:27 GMT
ScrapbookMyLife said: For some(self imposed or other people imposed), the achievement and accomplishment are never enough. There is always an expectation of "more" >> now go the next level, do the next thing, win the next ballgame, get a better score next time, etc.. Do you really think this is ever self imposed? Or do you think these are children who were compelled to achieve who have turned into adults who aren't self aware enough to connect that this isn't the best way to live? I'm just going to say it again, I was a naturally inquisitive kid. I am a naturally inquisitive adult. The expectations my dad put upon me for perfect behavior were intense. I still, at 47 years old, and with a whole legion of therapists behind me, struggle with the idea of achieving. For me, as a child, teenager and adult years...it was self imposed. My Mother never wanted me, nor does she love me. I have learn through therapy that she is not capable of loving. I was a burden that she got stuck with at the age of 17 when she got pregnant. She was forced by her Mother to keep me, even though she wanted to give me up for adoption. Through therapy I have figured out that I, self imposed, did many things throughout my life to try to get her to want me, love me, like me, etc... If I get better grades, if I clean the house, f I run when she calls-jump when she says jump, needs help with something, if I give her money, if I buy her meals (she is all about fast food and eating out and someone else paying for it) if I do and do and do and do for her....maybe just maybe she will love me. The more I gave of myself, the more she took. I, self imposed, did everything I could to get my own Mother to love me...and it's never been enough and it will never be enough. I did it up until about year and a half ago. I didn't know that I was entrapped in that vicious cycle. I equated myself doing everything for her as "keep doing it....this will finally make her love me". Thanks to all the therapy stuff I learned........I cut ties with her. It's been so freeing. |
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Post by ntsf on May 17, 2023 21:55:39 GMT
my dad was the first to graduate from a regular college (his dad had a nursing degree). he struggled in school with grades.. but this was late depression/ww2, and he was working to help support. his mom in addition to going to school. though he loved engineering, he had passions outside of his work life, and I think that rubbed off on me. we kids all went to college and did ok. my brothers were engineers.. but I went off and got a degree in recreation. my parents trusted we would find ways to support ourselves.
dh's dad was the first to go and to graduate from college.. his college years were pre ww2 and post ww2.. when dh went to college, there was no money for it---he had to pay himself. his dad did tell him he couldn't major in anthropology, so dh got a computer science degree (in 1974). his mother also grew up with nothing.. and they trusted that dh would make money somehow, just as they always did. both his parents focused on their passions (climbing and sewing) and not on work life. so though my parents and my in laws did ok.. very middle class lives, they did not really push us to reach super high.. but do what you want to do.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 17, 2023 22:22:22 GMT
ScrapbookMyLife I think we can recognize what shaped us and our thinking while still taking responsibility for our own recovery from it. I like to think I am healthy enough now to be able to look back and connect the dots but to be able to do it without getting emotional about it anymore. I am sorry that happened to you. I can relate in many ways. My dad still doesn't seem to like me very much and I've come to terms with that. Part of what made his pushing of me possible is that I was naturally curious and I also felt unloved and that the next achievement would surely be the one that just changed his heart. And it didn't. And it was disappointing every single time. Anyway, I'm sending you this hug because what happened to you and your reaction to it was caused by someone else. It absolutely was. If you learned about this as an adult and you continued in that same manner, then I believe that it would be self-imposed. And again, I don't think that makes you a victim to say that this is how you internalized something as a child. I'm not placing blame on anyone. I'm using the past as an explanation of behavior. I think it was so good you finally got to learn about this through the help of a therapist and that you've taken the necessary steps in your life to not continue behavior toward yourself that was harmful. I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again, I admire the steps you are taking to take back control of your life and your peace. I've read your posts around the board and I didn't know this aspect of it before, but I have been silently cheering you on as you shape your life to how you want it to be.
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Post by ScrapbookMyLife on May 18, 2023 0:33:22 GMT
ScrapbookMyLife I think we can recognize what shaped us and our thinking while still taking responsibility for our own recovery from it. I like to think I am healthy enough now to be able to look back and connect the dots but to be able to do it without getting emotional about it anymore. I am sorry that happened to you. I can relate in many ways. My dad still doesn't seem to like me very much and I've come to terms with that. Part of what made his pushing of me possible is that I was naturally curious and I also felt unloved and that the next achievement would surely be the one that just changed his heart. And it didn't. And it was disappointing every single time. Anyway, I'm sending you this hug because what happened to you and your reaction to it was caused by someone else. It absolutely was. If you learned about this as an adult and you continued in that same manner, then I believe that it would be self-imposed. And again, I don't think that makes you a victim to say that this is how you internalized something as a child. I'm not placing blame on anyone. I'm using the past as an explanation of behavior. I think it was so good you finally got to learn about this through the help of a therapist and that you've taken the necessary steps in your life to not continue behavior toward yourself that was harmful. I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again, I admire the steps you are taking to take back control of your life and your peace. I've read your posts around the board and I didn't know this aspect of it before, but I have been silently cheering you on as you shape your life to how you want it to be. Thank you for your words. I tell my story, in the hopes that it can help someone else heal. I am happy and content, and taking life one day at a time. Always a work in progress. Wishing you peace and healing. |
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