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Nov 2, 2024 4:27:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 12:07:11 GMT
I keep seeing people trip on how to correctly refer to someone who is transgender, and I know most of this board is respectful, well meaning, and wants to get it right. Clarification: You simply refer to them as the gender they are currently presenting. A person who was born male and has transitioned to female is a transgender woman. A person who was born female and has transitioned to male is a transgender man. I'll ask a dumb question...are your statements in conflict with each other at all? The first statement says refer to them as the gender they are presenting but then the following statements say to refer to them as transgender woman and man. Isn't that identifying them as not just the gender they are presenting as, but instead putting a qualifier on it? Or is there some context you are referring to? Much like with a name change, a person who was once Bob and is now Mary, you would just call them Mary, not Mary nee Bob. That's not how it works. She was referring to the constant wrong terminology being used. Calling someone transgender is an umbrella term. In the other thread, someone kept saying transgender man when they were actually talking about a transgender woman. Putting man or woman at the end clarifies their transition. There are people that are gender fluid. They often state they are non binary but stick with gendered pronouns. That's their choice. Don't get rude about it and simply respect it. There's nothing confusing about it. Just understand that there's fluidity in their expression and leave it alone. |
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Post by smasonnc on Jun 15, 2023 13:37:18 GMT
Many years ago I told someone that unless I planned to have sex with __ it was not really a concern of mine, I said the same this except I included, "or if they planned to sleep with my husband."  I am open to respecting people’s wishes but I have such a hard time with using they because it doesn’t sound grammatically correct. Me, too. I'm not a bigot; I'm pedantic. I knew a young man who was a girl before they went away to school. When I ask about him, I frequently mess up his name and pronouns because I knew the girl, but haven't seen him as a man. I'm just so happy for him because he seems to be so joyful now. I hope they'll give me some grace. |
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Post by tuva42 on Jun 15, 2023 13:54:10 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John.
Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing.
We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this.
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Post by busy on Jun 15, 2023 14:02:12 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. Please do not call someone who uses they/them “Miss John.” How about just asking them how they would like students to address them? I personally think these gendered “signs of respect” need to go away completely. Calling strangers sir or ma’am is making assumptions about genders based on visuals and can often be incorrect. Calling someone Miss when they use gender neutral pronouns is offensive imo. They probably won’t make an issue about it because there isn’t a clear alternative and they know they’re going to get rhe “sign of respect” argument but that’s rooted in a gender binary that just doesn’t apply in today’s world. |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Jun 15, 2023 14:19:01 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. You just teach the kids to call them what they choose when you talk to them. They might not care about the supposed sign of respect. It should be perfectly acceptable to call them just by their name. I work with classroom teachers who just use their first name. It isn’t a big deal and the kids are not less respectful to them then the teachers that use Ms or Mrs or Mr. |
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Post by finsup on Jun 15, 2023 14:35:04 GMT
Re the argument that they/them seems grammatically incorrect: what have we always done when we didn’t know someone’s gender? We used “they.” For example a conversation might go something like this: “The clerk at Dunkin made me smile today.” “Oh really? What did they do?” What MichyM said is true. Just use it and it gets easier. And then soon you’ll be this  |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 15, 2023 16:41:40 GMT
I'll ask a dumb question...are your statements in conflict with each other at all? The first statement says refer to them as the gender they are presenting but then the following statements say to refer to them as transgender woman and man. Isn't that identifying them as not just the gender they are presenting as, but instead putting a qualifier on it? Or is there some context you are referring to? Much like with a name change, a person who was once Bob and is now Mary, you would just call them Mary, not Mary nee Bob. That's not how it works. She was referring to the constant wrong terminology being used. Calling someone transgender is an umbrella term. In the other thread, someone kept saying transgender man when they were actually talking about a transgender woman. Putting man or woman at the end clarifies their transition. There are people that are gender fluid. They often state they are non binary but stick with gendered pronouns. That's their choice. Don't get rude about it and simply respect it. There's nothing confusing about it. Just understand that there's fluidity in their expression and leave it alone. It may not be confusing to you, but it is extremely confusing to many of us, myself included. I just tend to avoid pronouns about/with strangers because I get muddled when I try to figure it out, and I don’t want to be rude. |
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Post by tuva42 on Jun 15, 2023 16:44:59 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. Please do not call someone who uses they/them “Miss John.” How about just asking them how they would like students to address them? I personally think these gendered “signs of respect” need to go away completely. Calling strangers sir or ma’am is making assumptions about genders based on visuals and can often be incorrect. Calling someone Miss when they use gender neutral pronouns is offensive imo. They probably won’t make an issue about it because there isn’t a clear alternative and they know they’re going to get rhe “sign of respect” argument but that’s rooted in a gender binary that just doesn’t apply in today’s world. I was told that John preferred to be called "Miss John" rather than "Mr. John." And I did say, I will ask those who prefer to use They/them what they would prefer us to use. I am good with whatever they want. |
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Post by busy on Jun 15, 2023 16:50:01 GMT
I was told that John preferred to be called "Miss John" rather than "Mr. John." I'd confirm that with John, personally. That sounds like the staff trying to shoehorn them into what they're comfortable with. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jun 15, 2023 16:59:04 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. You could give them all the same title -- like Teacher Laurie and Teacher Micah. I think a lot of professional fields just use a title rather than Mr./Miss anyway, and it eliminates the other problem (men are just Mr. while women are Miss/Ms/Mrs and you may need to know their marital status, which seems irrelevant for interacting with kids). I have my students fill out a bio every semester that includes substantive things (do you like visuals? do you get nervous when called on?) but also basic info like "how do I pronounce your name" and "what are your pronouns". I don't like to guess, and I will tell you, while most of my students use pronouns that I would likely guess, even before I became more cognizant of trans identities, every single semester I had at least one student whose gender presentation wasn't clear (not because they were trans, but because you just couldn't tell by looking at them and they had a name that didn't make it obvious). It's been really helpful! |
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Post by tmarschall on Jun 15, 2023 17:26:00 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. You could give them all the same title -- like Teacher Laurie and Teacher Micah. I think a lot of professional fields just use a title rather than Mr./Miss anyway, and it eliminates the other problem (men are just Mr. while women are Miss/Ms/Mrs and you may need to know their marital status, which seems irrelevant for interacting with kids). I have my students fill out a bio every semester that includes substantive things (do you like visuals? do you get nervous when called on?) but also basic info like "how do I pronounce your name" and "what are your pronouns". I don't like to guess, and I will tell you, while most of my students use pronouns that I would likely guess, even before I became more cognizant of trans identities, every single semester I had at least one student whose gender presentation wasn't clear (not because they were trans, but because you just couldn't tell by looking at them and they had a name that didn't make it obvious). It's been really helpful! Same! I had my first student that I already knew by "Abby" come back after the summer break and request they/them. It was a challenge the first few times to remember, but we made it. I also used to use "Yes, Ma'am!" as a kind of emphatic quirky response, either a student answering a question with exactly what I was looking for, or clarifying an expectation about an assignment. I have caught myself and am a stopping that, replacing it with Yesssssss! And Yes, exactly that! It only takes a couple times and then it becomes comfortable. I like your bio questionnaire. I prefer my students call me Tracy. I am surprised so many of my colleagues at this institution require Dr. X...hey, cool....they earned it. But as a result a lot of students struggle with calling me just Tracy, and some of them use Ms.Tracy (I am recently married but haven't ever used Mrs) or Professor Tracy. |
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Post by supersoda on Jun 15, 2023 18:57:04 GMT
I have another question for you. I run craft summer camps. We have the kids call all of our staff by their first name but with Miss or Mr. in front of it. I'm Miss Laurie, we have Miss Maddie and Mr. Micah as well as others. Recently, I was taking my crafts to a day care where a former employee of mine now works. He was Mr. John when he worked for me. The staff there told me he is now Miss John. Here is my question. I have two staff who prefer to use the pronouns they/them. They are not transgender. They are born female, they prefer to be gender neutral. So far I have always just said Miss Jane or Miss Emily. How do I have the kids address them that is more gender neutral? I will, of course, ask them what they prefer, but I'm wondering what others are doing. We use Mr. and Miss and Mrs. just as a sign of respect. Many camps and day cares do this. The gender neutral honorarium is Mx. Pronounced mix. |
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Deleted
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Nov 2, 2024 4:27:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 22:11:54 GMT
I'll ask a dumb question...are your statements in conflict with each other at all? The first statement says refer to them as the gender they are presenting but then the following statements say to refer to them as transgender woman and man. Isn't that identifying them as not just the gender they are presenting as, but instead putting a qualifier on it? Or is there some context you are referring to? Much like with a name change, a person who was once Bob and is now Mary, you would just call them Mary, not Mary nee Bob. That's not how it works. She was referring to the constant wrong terminology being used. Calling someone transgender is an umbrella term. In the other thread, someone kept saying transgender man when they were actually talking about a transgender woman. Putting man or woman at the end clarifies their transition. There are people that are gender fluid. They often state they are non binary but stick with gendered pronouns. That's their choice. Don't get rude about it and simply respect it. There's nothing confusing about it. Just understand that there's fluidity in their expression and leave it alone. I hope you own a mirror lol. Next time someone mentions transgender, I'm going to remember this conversation. That's what it's like for many people who ask questions to educate themselves. They remember the rude arsehole who couldn't help centre themselves in the topic. Btw rude would be me telling you to fuck off. |
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Deleted
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Nov 2, 2024 4:27:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2023 23:23:14 GMT
That's not how it works. She was referring to the constant wrong terminology being used. Calling someone transgender is an umbrella term. In the other thread, someone kept saying transgender man when they were actually talking about a transgender woman. Putting man or woman at the end clarifies their transition. There are people that are gender fluid. They often state they are non binary but stick with gendered pronouns. That's their choice. Don't get rude about it and simply respect it. There's nothing confusing about it. Just understand that there's fluidity in their expression and leave it alone. I hope you own a mirror lol. Next time someone mentions transgender, I'm going to remember this conversation. That's what it's like for many people who ask questions to educate themselves. They remember the rude arsehole who couldn't help centre themselves in the topic. Btw rude would be me telling you to fuck off. Wow, overreact much? "Don't be rude" was a generic broad brush that applies to everyone and every situation. I've seen way too many people get rude and dismiss a person's preference and all I ask is that you (general you) don't do the same. Don't worry so much about what they look like and just ask if you're not sure. Damn. |
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Post by OntarioScrapper on Jun 16, 2023 20:04:17 GMT
My son is trans. He has not transited fully. Sometimes he gets mis gendered but he tries to not let that get him down because people are of habit. However when someone does refer to him as a male, he beams. He actually wears a button when in public that says He/Him.
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