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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 21:18:12 GMT
UPDATE: Because I know how the peas love an update. It’s very anti-climactic, though. Apparently the whole thing had been resolved between the building principal, the principal of the other campus (because it turned out to be one of their kids), and the mom by 5 PM yesterday. No one bothered to tell the two teachers who spent the evening fretting over it. Typical for my district, unfortunately. But I’m glad they found a resolution.
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I am working at a summer music camp run by our district. The building we're in is also housing summer schools for two different campuses, so when we go out to recess, there are other kids and teachers on the playground as well.
Today, one of our students told us at the end of recess that a student from summer school had called him the N-word on the playground. It had happened earlier, and as our recess times don't overlap exactly, the student and his class had already gone inside. The child, a rising 4th grader, asked to call his mom about it.
The other music teacher and I conferred and determined it was better to see if we could get an ID on the child before getting mom involved. It didn't seem there was much mom could do at that point. We asked our student to have a look around at lunch and see if he could spot the other child. He could not. The other teacher and I determined to speak to the mom at pickup and let her know we were speaking to the building principal so he could start an investigation with the summer school classes. We did all of that before leaving for the day.
Just got a livid email from mom, copying the head of fine arts, wanting to know why she wasn't called immediately and how dare we and all of that. I certainly understand her being upset about the incident. We take it very seriously, which is why we've gotten the building principal involved. What I don't understand is what the child or his mother thought she was going to do if he had called her during recess.
The other teacher and I feel we did our due diligence in attempting to identify the other kid, informing mom at dismissal and reporting to the building principal. What do you think? Would you have called mom right away?
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peabay
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jun 28, 2023 21:24:46 GMT
Honestly? I think I would've - I would've told her "we're attempting to identify this child; we are speaking to the principal so they can start an investigation" etc... And I would've done it to avoid what you're going through right now - of course the kid called her and said "I wanted to call you right away and they wouldn't let me" and that's going to set anyone off.
I'm sorry - it sure sounds like you were doing all the right things. And just wtf - that's the worst. That poor kid.
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Post by myshelly on Jun 28, 2023 21:26:13 GMT
A kid asked to call mom, you should have let him.
I would be livid.
Calling mom wasn’t about identifying the culprit. Calling mom was about needing to talk to someone about being called N-, which you, as a white teacher, do not understand the same way mom understands.
Calling mom wasn’t about punishing the other child, calling mom was about the psychological harm done to the victim.
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wellway
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Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Jun 28, 2023 21:30:12 GMT
Honestly, I can see the mum's point, her child wanted the comfort of her voice and support asap after being at the receiving end of racial abuse. You could tell the mum just what you told us about the crossover of the breaks and you were attempting to id the other child.
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gina
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by gina on Jun 28, 2023 21:32:09 GMT
The poor kid asked to call his mom and you guys didn't. Sorry, but I think you were wrong.
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 21:32:30 GMT
Honestly? I think I would've - I would've told her "we're attempting to identify this child; we are speaking to the principal so they can start an investigation" etc... And I would've done it to avoid what you're going through right now - of course the kid called her and said "I wanted to call you right away and they wouldn't let me" and that's going to set anyone off. I'm sorry - it sure sounds like you were doing all the right things. And just wtf - that's the worst. That poor kid. Yeah. I see @myshelley's point too that it was about him needing to speak to his parent about what he'd experienced. To be honest, there are only two of us, we have no breaks or coverage, and so for one of us to take him to the office right then to call was not easy. Anyway, my bad for what happened. Tomorrow's the last day of camp and summer school. Hopefully there can be some resolution before mom shows up for our final concert.  |
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Post by myshelly on Jun 28, 2023 21:33:39 GMT
Honestly? I think I would've - I would've told her "we're attempting to identify this child; we are speaking to the principal so they can start an investigation" etc... And I would've done it to avoid what you're going through right now - of course the kid called her and said "I wanted to call you right away and they wouldn't let me" and that's going to set anyone off. I'm sorry - it sure sounds like you were doing all the right things. And just wtf - that's the worst. That poor kid. Yeah. I see @myshelley's point too that it was about him needing to speak to his parent about what he'd experienced. To be honest, there are only two of us, we have no breaks or coverage, and so for one of us to take him to the office right then to call was not easy. Anyway, my bad for what happened. Tomorrow's the last day of camp and summer school. Hopefully there can be some resolution before mom shows up for our final concert. Are there not phones in every classroom? |
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luckyjune
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Location: In the rainy, rainy WA
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Post by luckyjune on Jun 28, 2023 21:34:50 GMT
I think I would have sent the incident to the principal with the full expectation they then handle everything, from contacting the mom to investigating what happened. That's what would have been expected in my old district. The fact that my former admin did not follow through on incidents like the one you described played a big role in me leaving the classroom.
I think I'd let the kid call his mom as well. It could have been them needing the comfort of mom or just needing to touch base after something so awful. I'd probably ask to speak to the mom after the kid was done talking, just to let her know the principal was up to speed and handling everything. That might reassure her that nothing is being ignored.
And then there is the world where 4th graders have been exposed to racist language and actions. Kids don't get to be innocent any longer. How sad.
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jun 28, 2023 21:35:10 GMT
Yeah, I would've let him call. Partly b/c I'd be afraid the mom's anger would vent towards me, b/c of the lack of any other person to blame at this point. And also because I would assume the kid was upset and wanted mom to talk him down a little. I probably would've spoken to her first, and then handed the phone over to her kid.
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 21:35:33 GMT
Yeah. I see @myshelley's point too that it was about him needing to speak to his parent about what he'd experienced. To be honest, there are only two of us, we have no breaks or coverage, and so for one of us to take him to the office right then to call was not easy. Anyway, my bad for what happened. Tomorrow's the last day of camp and summer school. Hopefully there can be some resolution before mom shows up for our final concert. Are there not phones in every classroom? We were outside at recess. Could have happened when we came in, but we had already determined we wanted to see if we could find the kid first. |
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Post by ScrapbookMyLife on Jun 28, 2023 21:47:03 GMT
A kid asked to call mom, you should have let him. I would be livid. Calling mom wasn’t about identifying the culprit. Calling mom was about needing to talk to someone about being called N-, which you, as a white teacher, do not understand the same way mom understands. Calling mom wasn’t about punishing the other child, calling mom was about the psychological harm done to the victim. I agree with this. The child needed comfort and emotional support from their Parent. The Mom should have been called immediately. |
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 21:47:24 GMT
Some other information that factored into our decision: the kid did not seem upset when he told us. He had waited at least 15 minutes after it happened to tell us at all. When we went inside, he continued to participate as he normally does, no signs of upset. If he had been visibly upset, I think we would have made a different choice.
Also, I did not know how mom would react and since we have no class coverage, no duty-free lunch, and no planning time, did not want to get drawn into a long phone call where I was being yelled at about how I/we could have let this happen, with 15 kids listening on the other side of my classroom door. Past experience told me that was a possibility. Based on mom's email, it seems my fear about that was not unfounded.
Anyway. It was certainly not my intention (or the other teacher's) to further traumatize the kid or upset the parent. Seems we made a bad call. Hopefully it can be resolved.
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Post by disneypal on Jun 28, 2023 21:59:13 GMT
Sounds to me like y'all handled it the right way...I mean what could be done had she known just a few hours before she was told? If that did happen, I fell sad for the student, I can't believe kids would use words like that - how awful.
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Post by Jen in NCal on Jun 28, 2023 22:25:45 GMT
I think I would have sent the incident to the principal with the full expectation they then handle everything, from contacting the mom to investigating what happened. That's what would have been expected in my old district. The fact that my former admin did not follow through on incidents like the one you described played a big role in me leaving the classroom. I think I'd let the kid call his mom as well. It could have been them needing the comfort of mom or just needing to touch base after something so awful. I'd probably ask to speak to the mom after the kid was done talking, just to let her know the principal was up to speed and handling everything. That might reassure her that nothing is being ignored. And then there is the world where 4th graders have been exposed to racist language and actions. Kids don't get to be innocent any longer. How sad. I agree, the principal should have handled it. That is how it would work at my school. I, fortunately, have a wonderful principal and I have heard her do lots of "We just wanted to make you aware of what happened while we are investigating." She usually has the student in her office while she does that on speaker phone and then takes it off speaker so the student can speak to the parent. Our school policy is students can use their cell phones in the office. So along with handing it off to the principal, the student would have been able to call from there. |
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Post by 950nancy on Jun 28, 2023 22:29:57 GMT
I've never had a phone in my classroom, and I'm sure that I would not want anyone's kid calling a parent in my room in front of the rest of the class for that phone call.
That being said, I think I would have combined classes and let one teacher take the kid to the office. That also being said... you do what you think is best at the time and when you go back and see it again from another person's perspective, you can see where another choice could have been made. I'd talk to the kid tomorrow and apologize for not letting him call. Then I would do everything I could to try to find the offender and take the next steps. I would be concerned that the kid didn't see the offender that day. I hope you got a good description and what the kid was wearing. Hopefully the kid doesn't pretend to be sick tomorrow so he can't be identified.
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Post by littlemama on Jun 28, 2023 22:34:36 GMT
I probably would have explained to the child what you were doing and why you werent calling his mom immediately. Also, the principal should have handled calling the mom.
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The Birdhouse Lady
Drama Llama
Moose. It's what's for dinner.
Posts: 7,235
Location: Alaska -The Last Frontier
Jun 30, 2014 17:15:19 GMT
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Post by The Birdhouse Lady on Jun 28, 2023 22:57:45 GMT
I would have found a way for the child to call his mom. I think he needed to hear from her that it was going to be okay as only a mom (or dad) could do.
I think the rest of the steps that you took were correct.
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luckyjune
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by luckyjune on Jun 28, 2023 23:10:54 GMT
Some other information that factored into our decision: the kid did not seem upset when he told us. He had waited at least 15 minutes after it happened to tell us at all. When we went inside, he continued to participate as he normally does, no signs of upset. If he had been visibly upset, I think we would have made a different choice. Also, I did not know how mom would react and since we have no class coverage, no duty-free lunch, and no planning time, did not want to get drawn into a long phone call where I was being yelled at about how I/we could have let this happen, with 15 kids listening on the other side of my classroom door. Past experience told me that was a possibility. Based on mom's email, it seems my fear about that was not unfounded. Anyway. It was certainly not my intention (or the other teacher's) to further traumatize the kid or upset the parent. Seems we made a bad call. Hopefully it can be resolved. See, this whole scenario proves a point: no matter what a teacher does, SOMEBODY is going to be mad and they are going to let that teacher know about it. Teachers call home with concerns and get told, "Sounds like a school problem to me." Teachers don't call home and get told, "How come I wasn't informed?" Teachers call with grade concerns over and over and over again with no answer, only to face an angry parent at grade time (with the classic, "YOU didn't tell me they were failing. How was I supposed to know?" despite online grades available almost everywhere). You did nothing wrong in how the situation was handled. Wrong would have been ignoring the awful name calling or telling the kid to get over it. I know when I felt my kids had been wronged, my Mama Bear showed up immediately. What this kid faced was 100x worse! My guess is when Mom knows there is a plan and everything is being handled, she'll be okay. No worries! |
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 23:13:05 GMT
Some other information that factored into our decision: the kid did not seem upset when he told us. He had waited at least 15 minutes after it happened to tell us at all. When we went inside, he continued to participate as he normally does, no signs of upset. If he had been visibly upset, I think we would have made a different choice. Also, I did not know how mom would react and since we have no class coverage, no duty-free lunch, and no planning time, did not want to get drawn into a long phone call where I was being yelled at about how I/we could have let this happen, with 15 kids listening on the other side of my classroom door. Past experience told me that was a possibility. Based on mom's email, it seems my fear about that was not unfounded. Anyway. It was certainly not my intention (or the other teacher's) to further traumatize the kid or upset the parent. Seems we made a bad call. Hopefully it can be resolved. See, this whole scenario proves a point: no matter what a teacher does, SOMEBODY is going to be mad and they are going to let that teacher know about it. Teachers call home with concerns and get told, "Sounds like a school problem to me." Teachers don't call home and get told, "How come I wasn't informed?" Teachers call with grade concerns over and over and over again with no answer, only to face an angry parent at grade time (with the classic, "YOU didn't tell me they were failing. How was I supposed to know?" despite online grades available almost everywhere). You did nothing wrong in how the situation was handled. Wrong would have been ignoring the awful name calling or telling the kid to get over it. I know when I felt my kids had been wronged, my Mama Bear showed up immediately. What this kid faced was 100x worse! My guess is when Mom knows there is a plan and everything is being handled, she'll be okay. No worries! See, that's what we were thinking - we'd rather not talk to mom until we could tell her that the kid had been identified and it was being handled. That's what I would want to know as a parent. But I don't have the perspective that this mom does, so ... live and learn! |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Jun 28, 2023 23:16:57 GMT
You say you didn't have coverage. The school must have the office open, correct? Is school principal on site? How old are kids? Couldn't one of them gone to office to ask principal to come down so you could talk to him right out in hallway? Assuming you don't have a classroom phone (which does seem unlikely).
I would have let kid call. I also would have gotten principal involved immediately if he was on site.
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huskergal
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Post by huskergal on Jun 28, 2023 23:19:19 GMT
I think you handled it perfectly. Investigation and having information is very important before you deal with a situation like this, and you definitely need information for the administration.
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Post by Merge on Jun 28, 2023 23:30:09 GMT
You say you didn't have coverage. The school must have the office open, correct? Is school principal on site? How old are kids? Couldn't one of them gone to office to ask principal to come down so you could talk to him right out in hallway? Assuming you don't have a classroom phone (which does seem unlikely). I would have let kid call. I also would have gotten principal involved immediately if he was on site. So understand that we are basically running this camp out of two rooms within the school. Their principal and staff do not oversee us or help us in any way. We answer to the head of fine arts, who is in a different building far away. There is nothing like typical teaching about this scenario. I mentioned above that we were out at recess when all this went down. I do not have any time without kids present until after dismissal. What we could have done was to take him to the office to ask if he could use a phone in a private office, but we didn’t do that for reasons I’ve already explained. |
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seaexplore
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Jun 28, 2023 23:32:48 GMT
I think you handled it fine.
If the kid was visibly upset, I’d totally have let them call. AND from the sounds of the email, had the kid called, mom would have been down at the school looking for blood immediately.
I probably would have spoke with mom at dismissal just to give her a heads up. I also would have handed it over to the principal at the exact moment the kid told me what happened if I thought it was going to be a problem. That said, I’m teaching HS and my kids throw out the N word as sentence enhancers- black, Mexican, white, Asian- they ALL use it. I call them on it but it doesn’t matter. If we busted kids every time they said it I’d never have anyone in class.
At this point? You can’t really do much. Hope you have an amazing last day of summer school!
eta: just saw the principal scenario… yeah, not happening in your situation.
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Post by getting started on Jun 28, 2023 23:49:43 GMT
Some other information that factored into our decision: the kid did not seem upset when he told us. He had waited at least 15 minutes after it happened to tell us at all. When we went inside, he continued to participate as he normally does, no signs of upset. If he had been visibly upset, I think we would have made a different choice. Also, I did not know how mom would react and since we have no class coverage, no duty-free lunch, and no planning time, did not want to get drawn into a long phone call where I was being yelled at about how I/we could have let this happen, with 15 kids listening on the other side of my classroom door. Past experience told me that was a possibility. Based on mom's email, it seems my fear about that was not unfounded. Anyway. It was certainly not my intention (or the other teacher's) to further traumatize the kid or upset the parent. Seems we made a bad call. Hopefully it can be resolved. I believe it was not your intention to traumatize the child or parent. I believe you did the best you could making the decision you believed to be a step forward in solving/fixing the issue. I also have come to realize over the last 10 years or so, that it is not my place to determine what is best for someone else. Anyone else really, but especially thinking of differences in gender, age, race, religion, position of authority etc....if someone else tells me what they need - then my job is to hear them. So if a student says they need to call their mom it is not for me to figure out when, why etc. It is my job to help them with what they voice as their needs. I don't know that student's history, their family's history, or what they intend to have happen as a result of the call. And so I assume there is a whole lot of information that I don't know but they do. And for those reasons they need a conversation with their mom. I definitely didn't always feel this way. When I taught many many years ago I would have problem solved the issue, tried to help the child cope, tried to manage the conversation with both the mom and child. Just like you did. I now know there are so many variables and that my experiences are very likely different from everyone else's so I need to trust them to act in the way they think is best. I might offer suggestions, but I don't try to guide as much as I used to. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jun 28, 2023 23:50:33 GMT
Honestly? I think I would've - I would've told her "we're attempting to identify this child; we are speaking to the principal so they can start an investigation" etc... And I would've done it to avoid what you're going through right now - of course the kid called her and said "I wanted to call you right away and they wouldn't let me" and that's going to set anyone off. I'm sorry - it sure sounds like you were doing all the right things. And just wtf - that's the worst. That poor kid. This right here. ^^^ |
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Post by hop2 on Jun 29, 2023 0:04:24 GMT
You’re out on the playground with zero communication with the office? To me that’s weird and also seems somewhat unsafe. If you did have communication then you should have called immediately. If you did & clearly explained the racist incident & they didn’t bother to respond immediately then your principle or vice principle is a problem.
Here, there is always a line of communication to the office in every room & radios on the playground. I would have called the office and expected the principle or vice principle to come to the playground & deal with a racial situation like that immediately. That’s what they get paid the big bucks for. If your principle or vice principle wouldn’t immediately respond to a verbal racial incident immediate that is a problem.
As a parent I would have expected a call from the principle or vice principle asap explaining the situation and allowing me to speak to my child.
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Post by longtimenopea on Jun 29, 2023 0:17:53 GMT
I’m a school employee. My job function touches discipline issues such as these and they are often racial or gender related so I am no stranger to this scenario.
An incident that happened earlier in the day and had not caused physical harm such as required immediate notification - I would expect that to be reported to parents same day but would not have expected it to be handled on an emergent basis. The situation was reported after the fact and the student was not in active distress, which means it’s a situation that can be handled same day.
It is appropriate to attempt to determine what happened and obtain other student statements if others were around before calling parents.
I do let students call parents if it is not disruptive. Classroom phones are not for student use ever, so if it took some time to get a student to a place to call a parent in a situation that was not immediately urgent would be appropriate.
I would consider this a serious situation and could result in a student receiving disciplinary measures so it is appropriate to handle it methodically and ensure as much information is in evidence as possible before taking action.
I believe the staff can set the tone for how situations escalate or don’t. If I go into a situation like this lights and sirens, that is going to activate a parent. This is when errors are made. If I go into it taking it seriously and communicate clearly with parents with good information, then I have the opportunity to handle a situation like this with discretion and calm, and I don’t make mistakes born out of emotion.
We have 2750 students and deal with this stuff *all day* *every day* and I believe in assessing before acting.
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samantha25
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Posts: 2,967
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Post by samantha25 on Jun 29, 2023 0:48:02 GMT
You’re out on the playground with zero communication with the office? To me that’s weird and also seems somewhat unsafe. If you did have communication then you should have called immediately. If you did & clearly explained the racist incident & they didn’t bother to respond immediately then your principle or vice principle is a problem. Here, there is always a line of communication to the office in every room & radios on the playground. I would have called the office and expected the principle or vice principle to come to the playground & deal with a racial situation like that immediately. That’s what they get paid the big bucks for. If your principle or vice principle wouldn’t immediately respond to a verbal racial incident immediate that is a problem. As a parent I would have expected a call from the principle or vice principle asap explaining the situation and allowing me to speak to my child. It is a summer camp that happens to be at a school with other "day care" classes, similar to after school care. It is different than regular school, as usually no principal on site and limited office hours. |
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Post by manda on Jun 29, 2023 1:51:46 GMT
I’m a school employee. My job function touches discipline issues such as these and they are often racial or gender related so I am no stranger to this scenario. An incident that happened earlier in the day and had not caused physical harm such as required immediate notification - I would expect that to be reported to parents same day but would not have expected it to be handled on an emergent basis. The situation was reported after the fact and the student was not in active distress, which means it’s a situation that can be handled same day. It is appropriate to attempt to determine what happened and obtain other student statements if others were around before calling parents. I do let students call parents if it is not disruptive. Classroom phones are not for student use ever, so if it took some time to get a student to a place to call a parent in a situation that was not immediately urgent would be appropriate. I would consider this a serious situation and could result in a student receiving disciplinary measures so it is appropriate to handle it methodically and ensure as much information is in evidence as possible before taking action. I believe the staff can set the tone for how situations escalate or don’t. If I go into a situation like this lights and sirens, that is going to activate a parent. This is when errors are made. If I go into it taking it seriously and communicate clearly with parents with good information, then I have the opportunity to handle a situation like this with discretion and calm, and I don’t make mistakes born out of emotion. We have 2750 students and deal with this stuff *all day* *every day* and I believe in assessing before acting. I’m not a school employee but I am an HR professional who has been responsible for handling similar situations. This is the type of approach I would take in the corporate world. Nothing good happens when people react too quickly for the situation. Sometimes no matter how a situation is handled, somebody will take issue with how it’s handled it. Some of the mother’s emotions may be directed at what happened to her child but being directed at the response. I hope the offending child is identified. |
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Post by Lurkingpea on Jun 29, 2023 2:22:43 GMT
You say you didn't have coverage. The school must have the office open, correct? Is school principal on site? How old are kids? Couldn't one of them gone to office to ask principal to come down so you could talk to him right out in hallway? Assuming you don't have a classroom phone (which does seem unlikely). I would have let kid call. I also would have gotten principal involved immediately if he was on site. So understand that we are basically running this camp out of two rooms within the school. Their principal and staff do not oversee us or help us in any way. We answer to the head of fine arts, who is in a different building far away. There is nothing like typical teaching about this scenario. I mentioned above that we were out at recess when all this went down. I do not have any time without kids present until after dismissal. What we could have done was to take him to the office to ask if he could use a phone in a private office, but we didn’t do that for reasons I’ve already explained. Well, in your first post you said you were going to speak to building principal so they could open an investigation, so that is why I thought you could have had them come to your room. |
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