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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 9, 2023 13:15:49 GMT
I'm trying to locate the original Twitter post, but in it the OP quotes a man describing in some forum (reddit, maybe) that he moved in with his girlfriend and she would not renew the lease after the period of living with him because he didn't do anything to maintain their home. His statement was he was blindsided because he didn't know she was unhappy because she didn't say anything about it in a way that would make him feel responsible for any cleaning. 🙄
Now I'm rolling my eyes because if you've ever lived with one of these men, you know how frustrating it is to not only have to handle everything home/child care but also how irritating it is to have to instruct someone on how to maintain a home. Like asking for "help" as if it's all your responsibility anyway. This is what the original Twitter poster was saying, basically man up, dudes, and figure out what needs to be done and do it.
We could probably talk days about emotional and physical labor this scenario provides. But what was more interesting to me was another poster retweeting that OP and saying it's not that easy and not everyone can do that. She is neurodivergent and cannot functionally just notice when something needs done and do it. She needs her partner to provide the structure of a schedule. She claims that if her partner says the floor needs to be cleaned every Tuesday she will easily work it into her schedule and accomplish the task without having to be asked anymore. She thought the OP was very ableist.
Now, I have mixed feelings about this. One is that Esther was autistic. She operated much like the retweeter and I had to be clear with her what, how, and when I expected things to be done. I am thinking about what might have happened at the point she may have had a live-in partner.
On the one hand I feel very much like people with neurodivergence must be clear in their communication with partners about what they can and can't do and where they need help. I know I am upfront about my bipolar and what my limitations are and I have a partner who is accommodating. On the flip side, Esther was my child and we had a much different relationship than I do with a partner. And I know from personal experience that it is still frustrating to me to have to manage a partner's participation in the caring for our home/children. I feel like I should not have to manage a partner and it's emotionally taxing to me and it could be even more emotionally taxing to me because I am neurodivergent too.
What should the expectation be?
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Post by mikklynn on Dec 9, 2023 13:45:30 GMT
The guy in the Twitter feed sounds like my late DH. He absolutely would do anything I asked. But, I got so tired of asking. I explained it to him many times over the years. He could not see it. He could step right over a mess. I honestly think if I had married him as the person I am now, I'd have divorced him over it.
I would accept it if he were neurodivergent. But, anyone else needs to get their shit together and be a full partner.
I am willing to bet the Twitter guy was told over and over, but still says he feels blindsided. He just didn't want to do the work.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 9, 2023 13:54:42 GMT
The guy in the Twitter feed sounds like my late DH. He absolutely would do anything I asked. But, I got so tired of asking. I explained it to him many times over the years. He could not see it. He could step right over a mess. I honestly think if I had married him as the person I am now, I'd have divorced him over it. I would accept it if he were neurodivergent. But, anyone else needs to get their shit together and be a full partner. I am willing to bet the Twitter guy was told over and over, but still says he feels blindsided. He just didn't want to do the work. Just to be clear, I edited my OP. The original Twitter poster quoted a reddit or other forum post by dumped guy. The original poster stated that people should be able to see when things need doing and just do them without asking. This is what the neurodivergent retweeter took issue with. |
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Post by crazy4scraps on Dec 10, 2023 5:22:15 GMT
I think there are plenty of people who think that if they provide something else in the relationship, they shouldn’t have to do the stuff they just don’t want to do. My DH is like that. His business / labor is what primarily brings in the household money. I work for him in the office part time, (unpaid, but it’s still work that needs to be done and if I don't do my part he doesn’t do it either) but I’m also primarily responsible for pretty much everything inside the house, 95% of the shopping, and 99% of anything that has to do with our kid. He takes care of the lawn and snowplowing the driveway (mostly because those are things he likes doing) and I’m pretty sure he feels like that’s enough.
He will do something if I ask him to, but if I don’t ask he will absolutely step right over the mess. I usually don’t ask. It does get old having to pick up after someone who ought to know better, and I feel like it sets a bad example for our kid. He’s not neurodivergent so I can’t speak to that.
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Post by epeanymous on Dec 10, 2023 5:31:36 GMT
Two things. One, I cannot imagine that everyone who is neurodivergent and single can afford paid help to ensure they have a clean house, so I have to think there must be strategies single neurodivergent people adopt to ensure they get chores done. Whether it's setting calendar alerts or making a chart with steps or whatever,if it's important, there are management strategies.
But let's assume there are not. I still don't know that one person has a responsibility to personally and individually take on care for another person. It's one thing if it's your child--you are personally responsible to them. But we make a lot of judgment calls about what is acceptable to us in a romantic relationship. And if you are going to be responsible for the housework, that is a burden you'd have to be sure you'd want to take on.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 10, 2023 12:43:02 GMT
I think there are plenty of people who think that if they provide something else in the relationship, they shouldn’t have to do the stuff they just don’t want to do. My DH is like that. His business / labor is what primarily brings in the household money. I work for him in the office part time, (unpaid, but it’s still work that needs to be done and if I don't do my part he doesn’t do it either) but I’m also primarily responsible for pretty much everything inside the house, 95% of the shopping, and 99% of anything that has to do with our kid. He takes care of the lawn and snowplowing the driveway (mostly because those are things he likes doing) and I’m pretty sure he feels like that’s enough. He will do something if I ask him to, but if I don’t ask he will absolutely step right over the mess. I usually don’t ask. It does get old having to pick up after someone who ought to know better, and I feel like it sets a bad example for our kid. He’s not neurodivergent so I can’t speak to that. I admit that I have a relationship like this too. Jeremy enjoys the doing the lawn. And when he needs to get out the snowblower it is like a field day for him and he plows half the neighborhood. We fought and fought about this for years. I mostly didn't mind doing my part and didn't give him a hassle when I was able to keep up. But there were many times when I was seriously depressed and couldn't keep up and he wouldn't pitch in because it just wasn't a big deal to him. I guess his former wife is quite the slob. When I was working on my masters, I flat out paid Chloe very well to keep up with the house for me. We settled this by hiring a cleaning lady. Now I do the kitchen clean up, all the cooking, the laundry, and the pet care. He still does his outside chores. But I don't have to do the big stuff inside the house. And so we've achieved a balance. But damn it's hard to combat old attitudes about women's work and men's work. What really gets me is that I've set this example and I really thought it would improve as the generations progress but I see Chloe following in my footsteps with her fiance too. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 10, 2023 12:45:15 GMT
Two things. One, I cannot imagine that everyone who is neurodivergent and single can afford paid help to ensure they have a clean house, so I have to think there must be strategies single neurodivergent people adopt to ensure they get chores done. Whether it's setting calendar alerts or making a chart with steps or whatever,if it's important, there are management strategies. But let's assume there are not. I still don't know that one person has a responsibility to personally and individually take on care for another person. It's one thing if it's your child--you are personally responsible to them. But we make a lot of judgment calls about what is acceptable to us in a romantic relationship. And if you are going to be responsible for the housework, that is a burden you'd have to be sure you'd want to take on. This is what I'm saying. Flylady exists. There are books about housecleaning. Even if you don't "see" the mess, there are tools to help you learn to clean regularly. And to address your second point, yes I willingly took on my relationship accepting what would be my role. Accepting that I would need to request help when I needed it and that he wasn't going to offer. |
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iowgirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,314 
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Post by iowgirl on Dec 10, 2023 16:03:00 GMT
I am willing to bet the Twitter guy was told over and over, but still says he feels blindsided. He just didn't want to do the work. Maybe - or Maybe not... I hope the younger generation of men don't just assume that housework/children are just magically taken care of, but many many men are raised that way. It isn't even a thought to them to automatically do household chores. They never saw their dad do much (when not asked) and it just never crosses their mind. They they are blindsided when they get dumped because of it. "Jason needs to bring Jason's jeans" ... If you are a fan of the Kelce brothers and watch their New Heights podcast, you will get that. Jason didn't bring his jeans to a documentary preview, and ended up wearing shorts and flip flops. He thought his wife would do it for him. His brother Travis pointed out that Jason's wife had a lot on her hands with 3 kids to get ready etc., and told him "Jason needs to bring Jason's jeans" .. and he (Jason) had a visible revelation and agreed that he was responsible for himself and how much work his wife did with the kids. THAT is what reaches and teaches men. Seeing a big burley football player go .. "Oh, shit, what a turd I am" .... I really think the younger generations of men are realizing what needs to be done. My husband would never even think to do things around the house, if I didn't ask him. He will ask me if there is anything he can help with when we are having a party or gathering, but other than that - nothing processes. I have some knee issues, and it's hard for me to carry laundry up 3 flights of stairs, so I just leave a couple baskets at the bottom, and when he walks by them now - he grabs them and takes them up for me, no questions. But we have a different dynamic than many people do now. He does the absolute majority of the farm/ranch labor. I do the absolute majority of the household labor. I do not work outside the home/ranch. I do not get frustrated that he can walk around a mess, because I am not hauling manure or breaking water for cows when it is -14º. I don't pick up his "mess", in general. It is usually stacks of papers when he is ordering crop and livestock inputs. I just tell him, it needs to be gone before Christmas Eve. LOL But I taught all my kids, male and female, that the work load needs to be even. If both partners work outside the house, both partners work INSIDE the house. That is how they live their lives. |
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Post by scrapmaven on Dec 10, 2023 17:21:48 GMT
I'm not in a neurodivergent household, but I have issues that can prevent me from doing some of the more intense cleaning. While I do the tidying and dusting, some of the vacuuming and keep the kitchen/family room clean, dh has to do the stuff that requires elbow grease. He does it w/o complaint and I hate that he has to do this, because I'm home and he wfh, but our situation lends itself to that and he is against having a housekeeper when he can clean the shower himself. Like Jeremy, the outside chores are dh's and he loves yard work. His garden thrives and he's at his happiest when he's "playing outside in the yard".
If we were in a neurodivergent situation I would likely create a to-do list w/certain chores on certain days in order to help either my partner or myself. It really would be a "read the room" situation. Imho, one cannot complain about something when they know that the other person cannot fix that part of their brain. If having a list is helpful then why not do it? When you marry then hopefully, you know who you married and what they are willing to do around the house. Then again, I was with dh for many years before we married. I know who I was marrying and at the time I was healthy and did all of the housework by choice. We both worked and the house was clean, because no one was ever home. Once we had children I did everything indoors and really loved being a sahm. Then I became ill and things were not so easy. W/o asking dh stepped up to the plate and helped.
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pantsonfire
Drama Llama
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 6,241
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Post by pantsonfire on Dec 10, 2023 17:39:19 GMT
Living in a neurodivergent home I have a few things to say.
1. Just because a neurodivergent creates a list or lists doesn't automatically mean things will be done. Many ND persons have problem starting a task because of executive dysfunction and task paralysis.
Add in OCD and or anxiety and that things need to be done perfectly and you have a recipe for disaster.
This could be for both the to do list and seeing the mess. They could easily become overwhelmed and no matter how you break uo the task they are paralyzed.
2. There are many people who, while they ask for help, belittle the helper because it wasn't done their way. It isn't up to their satisfaction so they stop helping. I have seen this within my friend group. I feel bad for both parties but there are some controlling persons out there.
3. There are people, male and female, who do not see the clutter. They don't see the dirty dishes in the sink. Or socks on the floor. Visual processing as well as task analysis can come into play. Visual.processing disorder is quite interesting and unique at how the eye to brain process happens. My oldest see + as _|-. Yup. That is how the brain interprets what her eyes see. People also have to puzzle together the photo. They have trouble seeing the whole picture so to speak.
4. Many neurodivergent people have trouble completing the task. They feel putting the dish in the sink was enough. They see that as helping. Resentment toward an inanimate object isn't going ti help a relationship nor help a ND person see what is going on.
I am not going to lass judgement because we have no idea what was said or how it was said between the couple. And living as a ND persons and raising 2 ND persons, it is eye opening to see how each of our brains work.
4.
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pantsonfire
Drama Llama
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 6,241
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Post by pantsonfire on Dec 10, 2023 18:33:49 GMT
Excuse the typos. In extreme pain from my fibroids and the toradol ain't doing shit.
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Post by Linda on Dec 10, 2023 18:45:43 GMT
pantsonfire - yeah - that my household isn't diagnosed but yes - plenty of neurospicy here. Everyone is capable of DOING the tasks but noticing the need, initiating the task, staying ON task etc... is a struggle. And all of their brains work slightly differently so what helps one, isn't helpful for another. FOR ME - lists help - I use Habitica and everything is on a list - but even there, some days? nothing gets done from the list and if I'm lucky - I can move the task to the next day/week, if not? it'll show up again. I'm either hyper-focused on task accomplishment OR super distracted and/or hyper-focused on something else and tasks? what tasks? I'm better at organising/decluttering than cleaning. I'm the primary housecleaner here as I'm a sahm AND I care more than anyone else. Clutter/untidiness etc...makes me anxious so I'm much more likely to deal with visible messes than dusting for instance. One of my kids needed very detailed task lists with everything broken down step by step and to look at just ONE step at a time, do it, cross it off, and then look at the next. That's the one who as an adult is most likely to notice dishes in the sink or that a bathroom needs cleaning. They are better at cleaning than tidying but they generally know where their stuff is - it's just in organised chaos One of my kids wants a list of everything that needs doing so they can pick and choose what to do AND to have a specific time frame to do it in -we're cleaning on Saturday mornings, mum made a list of everything (step by step) that needs doing and we're all working on the list together and crossing stuff off as we do it. That one tends to clean in bursts - one day all the dishes/laundry/sweeping and bathrooms get done and the rest of the week they don't. They are also not tidiers - but the chaos tends to be less organised but there will be areas where they've organised all the books for instance but they can't find their keys. This one is pretty good about doing household stuff IF someone else is also doing it AND they know in advance that this needs to be done. They don't tend to be spontaneous cleaners/noticiers. One of my kids needs someone to sit with them and say - okay now put all the socks in the drawer. okay now hang all the shirts on hangers in the closet. and so on...MOST of the time their stuff is everywhere but every now and then the mess overwhelms them and they want help dealing with it. They tend to do the bare minimum when asked and need frequent reminders - however that bothers them more than me even - they hate that they can't stay on task and aren't able to independently deal with stuff. They are also time blind DH has a much higher tolerance for mess and disorder than I do but he is more than willing to deal with dirty dishes or run a load of laundry or take out the trash if he notices it needs doing and I'm either not home or obviously overwhelmed/tired/busy. His personal stuff is chaotic and overwhelms him and he tends towards perfectionism which can paralyse decisionmaking/task initiation. Time blindness here also. procrastination? we're 5 for 5 there, lol. Ultimately - my house is relatively tidy in the public areas and my craft room and chaotic in bedrooms and DH's bonus space. It's clean enough but won't win any awards - we live here and I pick my battles. edited to add - 4/5 are visual people who need to SEE their stuff or they forget it exists (to greater or lesser degrees). 1/5 (me) needs clear surfaces to rest their eyes on and wants everything containerised.
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Post by Linda on Dec 10, 2023 18:53:10 GMT
Two things. One, I cannot imagine that everyone who is neurodivergent and single can afford paid help to ensure they have a clean house, so I have to think there must be strategies single neurodivergent people adopt to ensure they get chores done. Whether it's setting calendar alerts or making a chart with steps or whatever,if it's important, there are management strategies. But let's assume there are not. I still don't know that one person has a responsibility to personally and individually take on care for another person. It's one thing if it's your child--you are personally responsible to them. But we make a lot of judgment calls about what is acceptable to us in a romantic relationship. And if you are going to be responsible for the housework, that is a burden you'd have to be sure you'd want to take on. many people who can't afford household help and live alone - live with less clean houses and/or less tidy houses than soem would consider acceptable. Or they buy disposables dishes so dishwashing doesn't overwhelm or loads of clothes so they don't run out of clothes as quickly and they may not notice the dust or mop often etc... That's not me judging them - that just the reality of life sometimes. as for being responsible for the housework - YES that was a choice I made. I'm not the breadwinner so yes, primary responsibility for the house and children is my job. I'm okay with that. I wasn't as okay with it when I worked fulltime and that was A factor in me staying home (only one factor but it was there) |
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Post by Lexica on Dec 10, 2023 21:17:01 GMT
My mom once said that she thought I should never get married again and it hurt my feelings. Not that I was planning a wedding or anything, but it felt like she was saying I was unsuitable. After stewing on this for a few years, I finally got the courage to ask her what was wrong with me in her eyes. I am so glad I asked her. It wasn’t anything wrong with me, it was that she felt I had my hands full with my job and my son’s cancer care to have to “take care” of a man. In mom’s era, women were expected to do it all in the home. She certainly did. And I had dated several men that had the same viewpoint. I assured her that if I were to ever marry again, it would be to a man that willingly carried half of the weight of maintaining a household. I loved watching my parents together, but they had a very uneven chore list. Dad did finally take over all of the cooking when he retired, much to Mom’s delight but I never saw him clean a floor or dust anything in my life with them.
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Post by dewryce on Dec 11, 2023 5:00:57 GMT
DH is one of those that never used to notice. We think there are some executive functioning issues to go along with his dyslexia. For me, as a partner, I am happy to help DH come up with strategies to cope with this and still function well as an adult member who helps take care of the household. It doesn’t bother me that he needs extra help. What does bother me is when he doesn’t even try to work the strategies. They may not all work, but they definitely won’t if you ignore them. And if something doesn't work I am happy to sit down with him and talk about it and work until we find something else to try. Those ideas are something I can bring to the table and help with, it’s what I’m good at and where he struggles. Just like physically I can’t do some physical cleaning, but he has no issues with it. We’re a team and working within our strengths helps.
He definitely does better with a complete list with details of things to do. I have written out MANY very detailed versions of them for different aspects of the house. But then he decides not to use them because he thinks this time he’ll remember everything. Or, he’ll use the list but not physically check everything off and misses quite a bit. That bothers me because he knows these things will happen but doesn’t want to admit it to himself sometimes.
I believe people do need to take personal responsibility. You know you have an issue, get help, professional if needed. And if that doesn’t work, try something else. Same with me and my bipolar disorder.
For those of you that either don’t see the mess or live with someone who doesn’t, a strategy that works for us is to keep all horizontal surfaces as clear as possible. I noticed that he would keep the bathroom counter cleaned off when it was basically spotless. But if even 1 item was left out then DH would just automatically add to it. And by the end of the day half a dozen items were sitting there. It pretty much needs to be empty. He thought it was too neat at first, too not-picky a standard to keep. But over time he really saw for himself that anything left out made it much harder to notice a mess and gave his mind permission to just start leaving things there next to whatever was out of place. Cleaning the kitchen? He can’t just sort of get it “mostly” done or by the end of the week everything we own is dirty and trash is all over the counters. But if he forces himself to clean it completely, he’s much more likely to keep it that way. That’s just how he functions best.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 11, 2023 11:09:47 GMT
Excuse the typos. In extreme pain from my fibroids and the toradol ain't doing shit. I am very sorry about this. You take care of yourself. And thank you for weighing in. Just because a neurodivergent creates a list or lists doesn't automatically mean things will be done. Many ND persons have problem starting a task because of executive dysfunction and task paralysis. I get this. I get it big time because I, too, struggle. Not only do I have bipolar disorder, but I'm beginning to come to terms with the fact that I most likely also have ADHD and I could possibly be on the autism spectrum. I'm not looking for diagnosis at this point because I don't believe it would be helpful and clearly, I've been coping up until 48 so I've learned to adapt. I think you have to weigh what is important what is not important, though and adapt to those things. Like I'll just admit that my pile of opened and unopened mail is obscene. I have a shelf in my kitchen and I don't bother cleaning it until the pile gets so big that stuff starts falling off. This, I can live with because it's not "dirty." But I can't live with a gunky floor. There has got to be some level of adaptation to the tasks that need to be done around the house. If we don't learn to adapt, how do we expect to function at work? There are many people who, while they ask for help, belittle the helper because it wasn't done their way. It isn't up to their satisfaction so they stop helping. I have seen this within my friend group. I feel bad for both parties but there are some controlling persons out there. I also know people like this. But I'm not thinking this is the vast majority of people. It isn't nice, that's for sure. And living as a ND persons and raising 2 ND persons, it is eye opening to see how each of our brains work. I agree with this. And I've noticed from running my household too, that what works for one person, doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Accommodations are very person-specific. I think therapists can really help with this. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 11, 2023 11:19:06 GMT
I'm either hyper-focused on task accomplishment OR super distracted and/or hyper-focused on something Esther was this way so I get that. I tend to be more suited to some kinds of housework most likely because of my ADHD and tendency toward mania. I can't sit still for more than half hour at a stretch. Even with my crocheting, I am likely to sit for half hour and work and then get up and *do* something productive before returning to the crochet. This makes me very adept at just doing a 15 minute task here and there. Those 15 minute challenge threads are exactly for me. However, this can make my work difficult at times because I need frequent breaks. Don't get me wrong, I can complete a report that might take me a week's worth of work in 40 hours because I've adapted to my short attention span and learned how to break things down into small pieces. many people who can't afford household help and live alone - live with less clean houses and/or less tidy houses than soem would consider acceptable. Tidy doesn't bother me. Clutter never has bothered me, at least insofar as someone is not hoarder level. I can be incredibly cluttered and my house requires a room to room pick up before my cleaning lady comes. What bothers me is the clean aspect of things. I cannot live with gross. I'm not an insane antibacterial wipes kind of person, but a general wipe down of things that are messy is IMO the bare minimum someone should be doing. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 11, 2023 11:36:15 GMT
What does bother me is when he doesn’t even try to work the strategies. They may not all work, but they definitely won’t if you ignore them. And if something doesn't work I am happy to sit down with him and talk about it and work until we find something else to try. Those ideas are something I can bring to the table and help with, it’s what I’m good at and where he struggles. I agree with this. I am always willing to help anyone make the adaptations necessary to help them achieve success whether it be my partner or my children. Strategizing I have no problem with. Even reevaluating what I think is a minimum level of cleanliness or the distribution of labor is negotiable for me. I believe people do need to take personal responsibility. You know you have an issue, get help, professional if needed. And if that doesn’t work, try something else. Same with me and my bipolar disorder. This is where I generally stand. Maybe it is unfair, but as much as I might like it to, the world hasn't changed for me. I have a household to run, two kids to parent, a job to do to put a roof over our heads. While sometimes I can be gentle with myself and there are totally days I am incapable of work, I need to keep moving whether I want to or not. As far as I'm concerned, my whole life has been lived with the mantra: adapt or fail. I need to figure out what works and what doesn't work otherwise my obligations don't get met. And I totally get that I've made choices that put me in this position but what is the alternative? I mean how far does tolerance go? I'll give you an example. Taking a shower is very difficult for me. The mental hurdle of knowing I have to wash my hair alone feels like a giant mountain to climb. And then the fact that I have to style my hair? Do I put on makeup today? All of it feels insurmountable every single day. But I do it. I shower every day because frankly, people need to care for their personal hygiene. Do I have wear makeup? Nope and I don't most of the time. Can I choose a simple hair style so I don't have to spend time styling my hair very much? Yes. I can make it easier for myself. But basic hygiene of washing hair and body? You just can't bipolar/autism your way to lapse in hygiene. And I can't imagine anyone here would say it's alright to subject your coworkers or husband to you being smelly because showering is incredibly difficult for you. In the same vein, living in a house that is a bit messy? Well in my mind that's the equivalent of choosing a simple hair style and no make up. But living in a house that desperately needs to be disinfected? That's where it crosses the line into bad hygiene. |
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Post by littlemama on Dec 11, 2023 12:29:29 GMT
When dh and I got married, we had a discussion of chores that needed to be done and we divided them in a way that we thought was fair. As time went on and things changed, we adjusted who did what.
Now, do I carry the bulk of the mental load for my family? Yes, I do. But Im not doing all of the chores on top of that! 😂
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Post by Merge on Dec 11, 2023 13:46:00 GMT
We've had to adjust our division of labor since I now work outside the home much less than he does. But it also takes continual communication, because DH now has lapsed into me being the maid who trots around the house and picks up after him, which is a bridge too far for me. He's like, I'll get to it, but my mental quirk is that I cannot relax if there's a lot of clutter/trash/disarray in the house. So I need him to clean up after himself as he goes, which rarely occurs to him to do. I struggle with understanding this, because when I leave a room I automatically straighten the area I was using and take any trash/dirty dishes with me. This seems perfectly normal to me, but DH and my kids find it annoying because (a) I expect them to do the same and (b) I will tidy/clean up things they left behind and felt they were "still using."
The lesson there is that sometimes one person in the relationship has expectations about chores and cleaning up that are, um, above the norm. Is the rest of the family expected to learn to see things the way they do? Or should that person also work on revising their viewpoint? Expectations about timing need to be agreed upon before anyone gets upset about others not doing their share.
Something funny, though - both of my girls were home last night and the oldest took DH gently to task for not picking up after himself and not seeing all I do to keep the house running. That was pretty funny from the girl who, just a few years ago, would nastily ask me "and what are YOU going to do while I do all the work?" when I asked her to complete a simple chore.
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Post by Linda on Dec 11, 2023 13:59:40 GMT
a strategy that works for us is to keep all horizontal surfaces as clear as possible. I noticed that he would keep the bathroom counter cleaned off when it was basically spotless. unfortunately at my house, a cleared off, spotless horizontal surface is an invitation to pile all things on it - I've tried clearing them off completely, I've tried clearing them off and strategically adding a couple of decorative items to indicate that it's not clear because it's not being used...nope |
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Dec 11, 2023 14:46:17 GMT
Let me start with saying I have little personal experience with anyone neurodivergent. So, I have read along but not commented because I did not feel informed enough to speak to that aspect of it. But I hate to deprive anyone of the benefit of my opinion - lol (a joke... honestly, just a joke), so I'm weighing in. He definitely does better with a complete list with details of things to do. I have written out MANY very detailed versions of them for different aspects of the house. But then he decides not to use them because he thinks this time he’ll remember everything. Or, he’ll use the list but not physically check everything off and misses quite a bit. That bothers me because he knows these things will happen but doesn’t want to admit it to himself sometimes. There has got to be some level of adaptation to the tasks that need to be done around the house. If we don't learn to adapt, how do we expect to function at work? I wondered about your husband at work, dewryce. Does he need those lists and that level of accountability at work? Sometimes, people don't solve a problem until we make it *their* problem to solve. And then jeremysgirl commented in basically the same direction if I am reading her right. My husband and I have very different personality types. He's a total type A workaholic and I'm waayyy more laid back and relaxed. We've had to learn to adapt to one another around the house keeping those differences in mind. Most of the time that goes smoothly but we certainly have times of getting really aggravated at each other's expectations of *how* things will get done. Communication is the key for us. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Dec 11, 2023 16:14:58 GMT
We struggle with this in our household as well. I can make a mess very easily, and my attention to it varies. Some days I can't stand any clutter and get into hyper focus and clean, clean, clean. But other days I can ignore it. The rest of my family can ignore it all the time. I think that is part of my problem--I get overwhelmed and frustrated that not only am I constantly cleaning up after myself, I am also cleaning up after everyone else. DH will usually do things if I ask, but if I say "We need to clean today" he will give me a look and ask "What needs to be done? It looks fine" when to me it looks like a huge mess. He also only cleans half way. So, he will do dishes but leave some left on the counter or stove, not wipe the counters, etc. I am like Dewryce's husband--it is much easier for me to keep things clean and tidy if it starts out that way. Once there are some things left out then it is easier to ignore the rest of the clutter and save it for later. As it is, I do about 90% of the housework. I am the one that thinks about what we need, what the kids need, make appts for the kids, myself and the dog, shop for what we need, and so on. DH takes garbage out, mows the yars, shovels in the winter. He will do dishes but like I said, the kitchen isn't completely clean afterwards. We also need to have the kids do more on a regular basis, but I have a hard time coming up with a structured plan since we have such varied schedules.
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Anita
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,727
Location: Kansas City -ish
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Post by Anita on Dec 11, 2023 16:29:47 GMT
I believe people do need to take personal responsibility. You know you have an issue, get help, professional if needed. And if that doesn’t work, try something else. Same with me and my bipolar disorder. I totally agree that people need to take personal responsibility. As for the professional help, I've been guilty of telling people to get help myself, but the reality is that a vast majority simply can't. Mental health care is expensive, very often not covered by insurance, and even if you can afford it, the wait lists can be discouraging to say the least. |
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Post by Linda on Dec 11, 2023 16:31:59 GMT
jeremysgirl - I'm going to try and say this kindly because I know you are a kind person and don't want to hurt others with your words. BUT sometimes you come across in your posts (at least that's how I'm interpreting them) as a bit judgey of those who haven't/aren't as able to adapt and overcome challenges as you are able to. I know those adaptations and the ability to overcome has been hard work and that with the bipolar (and the possible ADHD/ASD) there are more challenges for you than many. BUT it's not a personal failing for someone to NOT be able to adjust/adapt/overcome all of their challenges whether they are dealing with mental health, physical disability/illness, neurospiciness etc.. Sometimes that's because they don't have access to the necessary resources (medication, therapy, and so on) and sometimes it's because what they dealing with is treatment resistent or there are just so many obstacles/aspects to deal with that some just can't take priority. If we don't learn to adapt, how do we expect to function at work? not everyone DOES manage to function at work and some who do, do so at the expense of the rest of their life (family, hobbies, housework...) while others function because they managed to find a job that works with/around their limitations.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Dec 11, 2023 17:16:38 GMT
jeremysgirl - I'm going to try and say this kindly because I know you are a kind person and don't want to hurt others with your words. BUT sometimes you come across in your posts (at least that's how I'm interpreting them) as a bit judgey of those who haven't/aren't as able to adapt and overcome challenges as you are able to. I know those adaptations and the ability to overcome has been hard work and that with the bipolar (and the possible ADHD/ASD) there are more challenges for you than many. BUT it's not a personal failing for someone to NOT be able to adjust/adapt/overcome all of their challenges whether they are dealing with mental health, physical disability/illness, neurospiciness etc.. Sometimes that's because they don't have access to the necessary resources (medication, therapy, and so on) and sometimes it's because what they dealing with is treatment resistent or there are just so many obstacles/aspects to deal with that some just can't take priority. If we don't learn to adapt, how do we expect to function at work? not everyone DOES manage to function at work and some who do, do so at the expense of the rest of their life (family, hobbies, housework...) while others function because they managed to find a job that works with/around their limitations. Well, I think I need a break. If you think I can overcome all my challenges, then you've got me wrong. If you think I don't need sensitivity at times, then you've missed out on a lot of very vulnerable posts I've put out there including the fact that I struggle just to take a shower. If you don't think I have to prioritize what is important in life and what isn't and let some of that stuff go, I do. I even had a child that was more disabled by neurodivergent conditions than I am. I am surrounded by a family of people with different conditions and levels of ability. Your comment here about me thinking it's a personal failing to not be able to overcome your disabilities is *incorrect*. And it is a huge slap right in the face of all the freaking work I have to do to maintain the life I have. I have not overcome anything. |
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Dec 11, 2023 17:37:12 GMT
jeremysgirl - I'm going to try and say this kindly because I know you are a kind person and don't want to hurt others with your words. BUT sometimes you come across in your posts (at least that's how I'm interpreting them) as a bit judgey of those who haven't/aren't as able to adapt and overcome challenges as you are able to. I know those adaptations and the ability to overcome has been hard work and that with the bipolar (and the possible ADHD/ASD) there are more challenges for you than many. BUT it's not a personal failing for someone to NOT be able to adjust/adapt/overcome all of their challenges whether they are dealing with mental health, physical disability/illness, neurospiciness etc.. Sometimes that's because they don't have access to the necessary resources (medication, therapy, and so on) and sometimes it's because what they dealing with is treatment resistent or there are just so many obstacles/aspects to deal with that some just can't take priority. not everyone DOES manage to function at work and some who do, do so at the expense of the rest of their life (family, hobbies, housework...) while others function because they managed to find a job that works with/around their limitations. Well, I think I need a break. If you think I can overcome all my challenges, then you've got me wrong. If you think I don't need sensitivity at times, then you've missed out on a lot of very vulnerable posts I've put out there including the fact that I struggle just to take a shower. If you don't think I have to prioritize what is important in life and what isn't and let some of that stuff go, I do. I even had a child that was more disabled by neurodivergent conditions than I am. I am surrounded by a family of people with different conditions and levels of ability. Your comment here about me thinking it's a personal failing to not be able to overcome your disabilities is *incorrect*. And it is a huge slap right in the face of all the freaking work I have to do to maintain the life I have. I have not overcome anything. One person’s opinion that in all likelihood does NOT reflect how the rest of us view you. One person’s opinion. If you need a break, by all means, take one. But don’t let one person be what drives you off. I would surely miss you and your raw honesty about your life. And I think she’s dead wrong in her assessment of you. |
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Post by Linda on Dec 11, 2023 17:57:35 GMT
Well, I think I need a break. If you think I can overcome all my challenges, then you've got me wrong. If you think I don't need sensitivity at times, then you've missed out on a lot of very vulnerable posts I've put out there including the fact that I struggle just to take a shower. If you don't think I have to prioritize what is important in life and what isn't and let some of that stuff go, I do. I even had a child that was more disabled by neurodivergent conditions than I am. I am surrounded by a family of people with different conditions and levels of ability. Your comment here about me thinking it's a personal failing to not be able to overcome your disabilities is *incorrect*. And it is a huge slap right in the face of all the freaking work I have to do to maintain the life I have. I have not overcome anything. (((Hugs))) Please don't take a break due to me. I apologise -I obviously didn't do a good job of putting my thoughts into words. I KNOW from your posts here how very hard you work to achieve all you have achieved. BUT sometimes even WITH that much work, less is accomplished is what I was trying (and failing) to say. I'll back out of this thread now but please know I am sorry for insulting you |
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Dec 11, 2023 18:51:05 GMT
I'll back out of this thread now but please know I am sorry for insulting you And I am sorry if my reply came across as an attack on you. I do think what you said didn't come across well, but I don't think you meant it meanly at all. I simply wanted to point out to jeremysgirl that many of us would not share your opinion. |
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Post by scrapmaven on Dec 11, 2023 20:57:37 GMT
My perception of you is that you're very thoughtful and introspective. While you're struggling, you see other people who also struggle and want to support them. So, you share and encourage others to keep moving fwd even in the midst of your issues or grief. Your posts on this board tend to inspire me to do more to help myself and that's a great thing. I find myself very encouraged by your posts jeremysgirl. You take your experiences and share them in order to help others and you are so empathetic to others. You are a very strong woman, but that doesn't mean that you don't face daily challenges. Even so, I know that if I needed you you would put your challenge aside and be right there for me. That speaks volumes to your character and your compassion. If you left I would feel a huge void, but I would also support any decision that you made. I just adore you and consider you a good friend. |
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