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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 11, 2023 22:40:43 GMT
Rather dramatic title, sorry... I went over to my parents for dinner the other night and my dad tells me this story: Background. My dad is in his late 70s, as are a lot of his friends. He has a friend, Frank, who has no family, except (recently) an ex-wife, and a brother who does not talk to him. Frank lives alone in a house that my mom describes as a hoarder's house. And he's accident prone. He will call my dad, pinned under something that has fallen. Or he'll tell my dad "I'm going to go work in my workshop" and if my dad doesn't hear from him, he'll call or go check in on him. He's fallen in a bathtub and not able to get out... the list goes on and on. My dad has tried to wash his hands but Frank's ex-wife called and BEGGED him not to stop helping. She is about to move out of the state and get remarried. Recently, Frank collapsed and another mutual friend took him to the ER. Sam was at the ER most of the day, waiting. Frank had scans done, but there was nothing "wrong" with him, so they discharged him. Sam asked the nurse for some follow up information, and the nurse was like, get him his meds and take him home. So Sam did. On the way home, Frank asks Sam to take him to his car. Sam said, nope, we are going straight home. Well, now he is calling my dad and asking for a ride to go get his car. Without his car, he is totally stuck and relying on friends. He has set no services up. My dad took him to an assisted living facility, but Frank balked at the price. It seems he has money and owns his house (which sounds like its in bad shape) AND a couple other rental properties, but he can't believe the cost of either in-home care or assisted living. It's really incredibly sad. My dad said he was worried that if he takes Frank to his car, it is only a matter of time before he is in an accident (so far, accidents have only involved Frank and the car, things like ending up in a ditch, etc). So my dad said to me, you know, if he kills someone and people find out he was instructed not to drive, then I could get in trouble or probably sued for for taking him to get his car, KNOWING he is not supposed to drive. He felt he could be an accessory to a crime. Is that true (hypothetically)? If not charged as a crime, could be be sued for putting Frank behind the wheel? I am trying to figure out how worried I should be for my dad. This is a daily thing, dealing with Frank... if not for my dad, but for the other friend, Sam.  |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Dec 11, 2023 22:46:23 GMT
I would not take Frank to his car!
Who told Frank he could not drive?
I have not idea if your dad could be held responsible.
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Post by littlemama on Dec 11, 2023 22:46:26 GMT
Who instructed him not to drive? Where is Frank's car? I think I missed that part.
Your dad should call the police station and ask them what his liability is. Frank could just call an Uber or a cab to go get the car.
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Post by littlemama on Dec 11, 2023 22:47:41 GMT
Also, car accidents are not murders.
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,073
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Dec 11, 2023 22:49:00 GMT
Sorry, I can't see it in your post, who said he shouldn't drive?
Can Frank not set up an account with a taxi firm?
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 11, 2023 22:59:27 GMT
I am not quite sure where Frank's car is, honestly, just that it is not at his house. I don't know where he was when he collapsed, so maybe he was out of the house when it happened, so that is why Sam went to the ER and then had to take him home.
I believe there may have been medical instructions at one point that he should not drive, but it may not be "official". It may just be my dad and Sam having to deal with Frank and his many accidents that they feel he should NOT be driving. I'll have to ask....
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 11, 2023 23:00:39 GMT
Also, car accidents are not murders. True, but I ran out of room in my title for manslaughter! I think that is the more correct term? Although, if someone gets behind the wheel impaired and kills someone, couldnt that be murder? |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 11, 2023 23:02:01 GMT
Who instructed him not to drive? Where is Frank's car? I think I missed that part. Your dad should call the police station and ask them what his liability is. Frank could just call an Uber or a cab to go get the car. that is a good idea, i should have my dad ask the police. I have no idea if Frank knows how to user Uber or call a taxi (we are in a rather rural area of MD, but I guess we have those services...) |
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tracylynn
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,903 
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Post by tracylynn on Dec 11, 2023 23:13:21 GMT
I would find out what County Services there area and have someone come out and inspect his home. If it truly is a hoarding situation, they may force his hand on the adult living situation because they'll deem his house uninhabitable. I know it seems harsh, but honestly, it sounds like he needs a push to make the right decision.
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Post by librarylady on Dec 11, 2023 23:19:51 GMT
Since your dad knows the man is not a safe driver, he should not help him begin driving again--don't take him to the car etc.
Your dad would have it on his conscience if something happened to the friend or a stranger.
He might face a civil lawsuit from the man's family even if the police said it is not against the law.
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Post by Lexica on Dec 11, 2023 23:23:49 GMT
I would strongly suggest Frank sells his car and has someone set up his cell phone with the numbers for Uber or a taxi service, whatever is the most convenient for him. For about $100 per year he could set up an Instacart account and have just about anything delivered to his front door. I started using Instacart during the pandemic to avoid having to go out among people and it has been so convenient. I can add things to my shopping list over the month and then place it when I am ready. I put a folding table up on the front porch when I see that they have finished shopping and are on the way to my house. It is much easier for me to pick up boxes from the table than bending and picking up a heavy box from ground level. I do tape a note directing them to use the table.
I don’t know what liability your dad would have for taking Frank to his car, but it sounds like even if there was no legal liability, his conscience would really bother him if Frank hurt people in an accident. That is a good enough reason to say no.
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Post by mom on Dec 11, 2023 23:29:37 GMT
Also, car accidents are not murders. True, but I ran out of room in my title for manslaughter! I think that is the more correct term? Although, if someone gets behind the wheel impaired and kills someone, couldnt that be murder? No I dont think he would be liable as Frank is over 18 and responsible for his own actions. But your dad would have it on his conscience if something happened and that is worse, IMHO, then being charged with being an accessory. knowing that the charges probably wouldn't stick. You can get off of legal charges but having a guilty conscience is harder to get rid of. |
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,158
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Post by teddyw on Dec 11, 2023 23:37:41 GMT
Maybe his car will be towed at some point
Make a referral to the social services in his area.
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Post by sabrinae on Dec 12, 2023 0:15:12 GMT
I would strongly suggest Frank sells his car and has someone set up his cell phone with the numbers for Uber or a taxi service, whatever is the most convenient for him. For about $100 per year he could set up an Instacart account and have just about anything delivered to his front door. I started using Instacart during the pandemic to avoid having to go out among people and it has been so convenient. I can add things to my shopping list over the month and then place it when I am ready. I put a folding table up on the front porch when I see that they have finished shopping and are on the way to my house. It is much easier for me to pick up boxes from the table than bending and picking up a heavy box from ground level. I do tape a note directing them to use the table. I don’t know what liability your dad would have for taking Frank to his car, but it sounds like even if there was no legal liability, his conscience would really bother him if Frank hurt people in an accident. That is a good enough reason to say no. You’re assuming those services are available in a rural area. Instacart is not available where I’m at and Uber/taxi/Lyft are only available in the closest very small city which is a 20 minute drive from where I’m at. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Dec 12, 2023 0:27:43 GMT
Then check Walmart for all deliveries. $98 for the a year of Walmart plus. Better deal then Instacart.
Instacart is a yearly fee, plus other charges..
And yes, I have both. But it is not a must!!
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Post by nightnurse on Dec 12, 2023 0:27:49 GMT
Frank is doing what a lot of elderly people do-making the choice to stay in their own home and then forcing those around them to choose to help. Frank gets to make choices for himself but not your dad. It’s too much responsibility to put on your dad and it’s only going to get worse. My advice is yo notify BEAS so they can investigate. Thats a slow process but worth it. And the next time frank asks to be picked up from the er, the answer should be no. Make sure the er staff are aware he lives alone, falls…..it’s easier to dc someone home than to a skilled nursing facility but it’s unethical to dc them home alone if they need help. That was the only way we got my grandfather the help he needed. He was demented and unsafe at home and we could not convince him he needed more help or force him into care. He agreed to go to the er when he fell and the er wanted to dc him home with my mom and i told them we worked full time and couldn’t provide the care he needed. They were able to dc him to the veterans home and he lived out his last years well cared for.
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luckyjune
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Post by luckyjune on Dec 12, 2023 0:34:35 GMT
Sounds like Sam and your dad need to team up and go get Frank's car. They can park it at his house and then take the keys, telling him they'll return them when Frank is given the all-clear to drive.
If he has a spare set and he drives, well that's on him.
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peaname
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Post by peaname on Dec 12, 2023 0:36:48 GMT
As of January 2021, when someone calls 1-844-MAP-LINK (1-844-627-5465), a 211 Maryland information and referral specialist will listen to their needs, identify local resources, and direct the caller with long-term and complex needs to their local MAP office for options counseling. The support from 211 Maryland adds an increased value to callers who can receive both a referral to the local MAP office and information about other resources, such as meals, assisted living, caregiver assistance and more from 211’s professionally trained resource specialists who already connect Marylanders to a variety of community services and supports.
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Post by epeanymous on Dec 12, 2023 0:47:08 GMT
This is NOT LEGAL ADVICE.
No.
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snyder
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Post by snyder on Dec 12, 2023 0:52:47 GMT
Then check Walmart for all deliveries. $98 for the a year of Walmart plus. Better deal then Instacart. Instacart is a yearly fee, plus other charges.. And yes, I have both. But it is not a must!! My sister lives in a rual area and the closest Walmart is 9 miles from her. Walmar's delivery plan does not deliver to her home. She wanted it when her husband was home recovering from a bone marrow transplant and was not suppose to leave him. |
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Tearisci
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Post by Tearisci on Dec 12, 2023 1:03:16 GMT
I don't think he'd be liable for Frank's future actions once he gets his car but he would probably have it on his conscience if anything happened as a result.
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styxgirl
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Jun 27, 2014 4:51:44 GMT
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Post by styxgirl on Dec 12, 2023 1:03:55 GMT
Sounds like Sam and your dad need to team up and go get Frank's car. They can park it at his house and then take the keys, telling him they'll return them when Frank is given the all-clear to drive. If he has a spare set and he drives, well that's on him. This is what I was gonna say too. |
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Post by candleangie on Dec 12, 2023 2:25:07 GMT
They seriously need to involve social services in this situation. He needs more (and more professional) help than his friends and family are able to provide at this point. Will it piss him off? Probably. But it’s still the right thing to do.
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Post by dewryce on Dec 12, 2023 2:27:56 GMT
Since your dad knows the man is not a safe driver, he should not help him begin driving again--don't take him to the car etc. Your dad would have it on his conscience if something happened to the friend or a stranger. He might face a civil lawsuit from the man's family even if the police said it is not against the law. I agree, he shouldn’t take him regardless of the possible repercussions. |
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Post by dewryce on Dec 12, 2023 2:33:47 GMT
Sounds like Sam and your dad need to team up and go get Frank's car. They can park it at his house and then take the keys, telling him they'll return them when Frank is given the all-clear to drive. If he has a spare set and he drives, well that's on him. You can disable the car, remove spark plugs or (DH says) master cylinder. He works at a skilled nursing facility and apparently this is a common problem families face. |
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Post by Bridget in MD on Dec 12, 2023 3:13:47 GMT
Frank is doing what a lot of elderly people do-making the choice to stay in their own home and then forcing those around them to choose to help. Frank gets to make choices for himself but not your dad. It’s too much responsibility to put on your dad and it’s only going to get worse. My advice is yo notify BEAS so they can investigate. Thats a slow process but worth it. And the next time frank asks to be picked up from the er, the answer should be no. Make sure the er staff are aware he lives alone, falls…..it’s easier to dc someone home than to a skilled nursing facility but it’s unethical to dc them home alone if they need help. That was the only way we got my grandfather the help he needed. He was demented and unsafe at home and we could not convince him he needed more help or force him into care. He agreed to go to the er when he fell and the er wanted to dc him home with my mom and i told them we worked full time and couldn’t provide the care he needed. They were able to dc him to the veterans home and he lived out his last years well cared for. This is good to know. When Sam picked up Frank from the ER there must have been some sort of discussion about how he has no one to care for him at home. The ER said he could not stay - if he chose to stay theh would charge him $3k a night or something. Well that was a no-brainer to Frank so off they went to get his meds and then Sam took him home. I will look into Walmart delivery. That’s a great idea! I know the WM in my county is a super center/grocery store but I don’t know if the one in thier county is. I’ll look into instacart too. You all are right about my dad’s conscious/feeling guilty. It’s why he answers the phone. He knows his friend needs help. 🥺 I do believe Frank was on a list for our local veterans home but that actually got shut down. It’s a mess. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Dec 12, 2023 4:24:53 GMT
Then check Walmart for all deliveries. $98 for the a year of Walmart plus. Better deal then Instacart. Instacart is a yearly fee, plus other charges.. And yes, I have both. But it is not a must!! My sister lives in a rual area and the closest Walmart is 9 miles from her. Walmar's delivery plan does not deliver to her home. She wanted it when her husband was home recovering from a bone marrow transplant and was not suppose to leave him. Instacart delivers from Walmart 8.4 miles away from me. Not sure for Walmart grocery delivery from there for me. Groceries delivery is $35 minimum. I generally get grocery deliveries from a store 6+ miles... Walmart does ship numerous grocery items as well as much of what they sell. With Walmart Plus $98 a year everything is shipped free, with no minimum. I sent items to family in Florida, free. I can get OTC meds with groceries or have the shipped, again no minimum. |
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Post by Zee on Dec 12, 2023 4:28:13 GMT
He does not need to spend time worrying about his liability or not--what he should do instead is call the Dept of Human Services (Adult Protective Services). I looked it up for MD. If he's hoarding, is in an unsafe situation, and no longer able to care for himself, they need to be involved. Let him think the hospital did it, if he needs to blame someone. It's not a guarantee that they'll be able to do anything but should help your dad ease his mind on that front. No crime has been committed so calling the police isn't really necessary--calling the DHS is. dhs.maryland.gov/office-of-adult-services/adult-protective-services/ |
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