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Post by not2peased on Dec 22, 2014 16:53:17 GMT
Sara*h and I95 both made excellent points on this thread.
Leowife-you are far too close to this situation to be objective and your attitude towards those that don't toe the line on your opinions is pretty poor
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 16:55:09 GMT
Whoa! That's pretty shocking. I watched it 3 or 4 times to see if I could see anything that would have caused the cop to fire... the man had put his gun down on the pavement before he was shot....am I missing something? It's a very short video. Yes, you're missing the 2nd gun he's pulling out from his back waistband. Exactly. Life and death decisions must be made VERY QUICKLY. If someone can watch the video 3 or 4 times and not see the 2nd gun, how can they judge how an officer responds
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 16:59:10 GMT
I actually wasn't suggesting anything, just asking a question, but let's look at the Tamir Rice case. He was reported to be waving a gun around. The officers arrive and he is obviously alone in the park....not threatening the public, wouldn't it make sense to keep your distance and call for someone more experienced to perhaps try talking first? Was it necessary for the officer to pull right up to the person that had been reported to have a weapon, then kill him before he had time to respond to anything? The officer claimed he said 'drop your weapon' 3x before he shot....if that's true, he must have said it before he exited the vehicle because that patrol car had barely stopped before that child was dead. I'm just looking for an alternative to using deadly force so quickly. Exactly. He was sitting alone. Not doing anything. Why fatally shoot him? Why not wait for back up? Because he was reaching towards his waistband (where bad guys keep guns, FYI) They could've been standing there, or sitting in their car waiting for back up while the guy with the gun pulls it out of his waistband and sprays bullets through the front windshield. We unfortunately know that police cars are not bulletproof.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 17:09:23 GMT
Exactly. He was sitting alone. Not doing anything. Why fatally shoot him? Why not wait for back up? Because he was reaching towards his waistband (where bad guys keep guns, FYI) They could've been standing there, or sitting in their car waiting for back up while the guy with the gun pulls it out of his waistband and sprays bullets through the front windshield. We unfortunately know that police cars are not bulletproof. Or here's another scenario. The officers at the scene have to sit and wait for someone to come and talk to the guy with the gun. The guy with the gun ends up running away and the officers lose him. So now there's a guy with a gun on the loose in a community who then breaks into a home and kills a family or rapes an old woman.
Then people will cry "why didn't the police stop this bad guy with a gun?"
The police just cannot win.
It's never the criminals fault.
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Post by annabella on Dec 22, 2014 17:09:53 GMT
ANd here's the footage from the video...and yes, as I said earlier, it appears there was very little time from the time of the officers arrival to the time of the shooting...but I suppose those that blame the police will insist that the armed individuals have to shoot someone first before they're allowed to take action. Again...the cop that shot Tamir should not have been on the force with a weapon based on the reports out there. But I'll say again that Tamir's actions could've put ANY cop in that very same position...and then what? And here's a frame from the video footage that indicates that his arms were not up (I don't believe anyone claimed they were up) but clearly, it does indicate that his arms are down, and certainly appear to be reaching around his waist. I guess the cops should've waited until he pulled out a real gun and killed them both before they worried about it. Police officers can't be trigger happy because using deadly force can result in a wrongful death. It should always be a last resort. The officer should only escalate the situation based on the the other person's actions. The officer should always verbally request that the person put down the gun first. Police have to be accountable for excessive force, they are not above the law.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 17:21:02 GMT
ANd here's the footage from the video...and yes, as I said earlier, it appears there was very little time from the time of the officers arrival to the time of the shooting...but I suppose those that blame the police will insist that the armed individuals have to shoot someone first before they're allowed to take action. Again...the cop that shot Tamir should not have been on the force with a weapon based on the reports out there. But I'll say again that Tamir's actions could've put ANY cop in that very same position...and then what? And here's a frame from the video footage that indicates that his arms were not up (I don't believe anyone claimed they were up) but clearly, it does indicate that his arms are down, and certainly appear to be reaching around his waist. I guess the cops should've waited until he pulled out a real gun and killed them both before they worried about it. Police officers can't be trigger happy because using deadly force can result in a wrongful death. It should always be a last resort. The officer should only escalate the situation based on the the other person's actions. The officer should always verbally request that the person put down the gun first. Police have to be accountable for excessive force, they are not above the law. I don't know whether either of the officers did or did not verbally request that Tamir put his gun down. Police are accountable, but if a bad guy is reaching in his waistband vs. putting his hands up, the time for talk is done.
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Post by jonda1974 on Dec 22, 2014 17:22:00 GMT
If a person has a weapon, the situation is already escalated Anabella. The person gets a warning to drop their weapon. If they don't respond, the next step is to shoot them dead, because a wounded person with a weapon can still attack.
Take for instance the young man in the Jewish center that was stabbed in the head. The cop was ordering his stabber to put down the weapon or he was going to shoot. The man had already stabbed this poor kid in the head, and everyone in the center was begging the cop NOT to shoot the stabber. If I had been that young man, I'd have given the rest of the people in the community center a big FU afterwards. The stabber didn't drop the weapon, so the cop shot him dead so he wouldn't be able to stab the poor man again. Did the cop want to use deadly force? No, he actually gave plenty of time to respond, but it still ended up with the criminal dying because that is what has to happen. If someone is holding me at knife point, you can better believe I want the police shooting them in the head.
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Post by jonda1974 on Dec 22, 2014 17:25:35 GMT
Yes, you're missing the 2nd gun he's pulling out from his back waistband. Exactly. Life and death decisions must be made VERY QUICKLY. If someone can watch the video 3 or 4 times and not see the 2nd gun, how can they judge how an officer responds This is true. The video was 10 seconds long....had the cop waited 1-2 more seconds before shooting, we'd have had a dead cop on our hands.
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Post by PEArfect on Dec 22, 2014 17:50:05 GMT
Whoa! That's pretty shocking. I watched it 3 or 4 times to see if I could see anything that would have caused the cop to fire... the man had put his gun down on the pavement before he was shot....am I missing something? It's a very short video. He put his rifle down, but had a handgun in his hand. Watch again while the suspect is on the ground. The gun is in his right hand. The officer coming up behind him yelled, "gun!"
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Post by PEArfect on Dec 22, 2014 17:52:57 GMT
Whoa! That's pretty shocking. I watched it 3 or 4 times to see if I could see anything that would have caused the cop to fire... the man had put his gun down on the pavement before he was shot....am I missing something? It's a very short video. You just proved everything that the officers are dealing with. You had 3 or 4 times to watch the video, they only get 1 chance. Thank God for the police. Exactly my point! Things aren't always as they appear.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:13:01 GMT
Sara*h and I95 both made excellent points on this thread.
Leowife-you are far too close to this situation to be objective and your attitude towards those that don't toe the line on your opinions is pretty poor
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:34:53 GMT
Too funny coming from you! Merry Christmas to you sarahh, hope you don't miss too much of it with your head stuck deep in the sand. And because you are not thinking rationally or realistically, let me sum this up for you---pushing criminals to sainthood, supporting criminal behavior, continuing that mentality is not any "opinion or perspective" they are facts that have been brought forward in these instances. You obviously don't read and/or absorb what others/I have written, that we refuse to condone illegal behavior, criminal activity no matter who does it. And yet you have no problem with the fact that a bad cop - Darren Wilson - wasn`t charged. Wilson is one of the bad apples. The Grand Jury was a JOKE. It was rigged. He lied and the prosecution helped him. He should be in jail. Just wanted to ask AGAIN where the info is that Darren Wilson was/is a "bad cop" or a "bad apple". What are you basing this opinion on? Again I'll state that I've never read any bad report on Darren Wilson or his time on the job. Do you have something that indicates otherwise, or are you just stating your opinion as if it's factual?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:44:30 GMT
Sara*h and I95 both made excellent points on this thread.
Leowife-you are far too close to this situation to be objective and your attitude towards those that don't toe the line on your opinions is pretty poor
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that noticed this
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NoWomanNoCry
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Jun 25, 2014 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Dec 22, 2014 20:53:25 GMT
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that noticed this Exactly!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 22:42:37 GMT
Sara*h and I95 both made excellent points on this thread.
Leowife-you are far too close to this situation to be objective and your attitude towards those that don't toe the line on your opinions is pretty poor
Hello, Please let me know how my opinions have been pretty poor. The whole point of this was to discus, put opinions out there and respond. You are 100% I'm very close to this. Our department had a deputy shot and do you know what the good people of that neighborhood did...walked by and spit on him, kicked him...hid the felon and fought LEO the whole time. So I am close, but have shown much politeness. I don't appreciate you being the moral compass. Everyone has the right to speak their mind and everyone is a grown adult. If anyone has an issue they have a voice and can express it on the board or pm me privately. Attitude..so because I don't share someones opinion, its an attitude. Well then everyone on this discussion has an attitude.If we all believed, stood for or did the same thing our nation would never progress. Unless you are going to contribute to the conversation please refrain from being rude to me so bluntly. I have shown great restraint with my comments and have been very pleasant, until now. While I will keep what YOU stated in mind, I will continue the conversation. Happy Holidays. #bluelivesmatter
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Dec 22, 2014 22:52:35 GMT
@leowife - Actually, I think you've been pretty fair. I can't imagine how hard it must to be the wife of a leo at this time!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 23:11:51 GMT
Sara*h and I95 both made excellent points on this thread.
Leowife-you are far too close to this situation to be objective and your attitude towards those that don't toe the line on your opinions is pretty poor
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board. Hi, Thank you for this, but sadly I'm use to it. LEO families are "too Close", not objective enough, feel their spouse deserves more and so on. I'm use to it, but will speak up, I have a thick skin and use it proudly whenever I can. She's da*n right I'm too close, tell me how many time your spouse has ... walked in the door 4 hours late because he didn't want to leave a beaten women and child alone at the hospital and didn't feel right until they got into a shelter and were safe and secure and has to deal with the a-hole coming to department and trying to assault him...because he wants his wife. Or when I have to show and speak to my girls about criminals following them home and the safety procedures they have to take let her let me know. Thank you for speaking up...feel free to read my response to her above. Happy Holidays #bluelivesmatter
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Dec 22, 2014 23:17:08 GMT
The more I fact check the more stunned I am. I too think the grand jury dealings are a farce. They worked to exonerate rather than just get the facts. Grand juries/prosecutors need to be brought in rather than be from the same force. They are not being objective. There is sooooo much misinformation out there it's ludicrous. Those of you who are blaming Rev Shapton need to chill. (I still think he's nutty but he did not call for killing cops) Blame the slimy FOX affiliate caught FAKING a story!!! LIE
And how anyone can believe the grand jury findings after this is beyond me. really needs a WOW JUST WOW
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Post by gmcwife1 on Dec 22, 2014 23:29:37 GMT
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board. Hi, Thank you for this, but sadly I'm use to it. LEO families are "too Close", not objective enough, feel their spouse deserves more and so on. I'm use to it, but will speak up, I have a thick skin and use it proudly whenever I can. She's da*n right I'm too close, tell me how many time your spouse has ... walked in the door 4 hours late because he didn't want to leave a beaten women and child alone at the hospital and didn't feel right until they got into a shelter and were safe and secure and has to deal with the a-hole coming to department and trying to assault him...because he wants his wife. Or when I have to show and speak to my girls about criminals following them home and the safety procedures they have to take let her let me know. Thank you for speaking up...feel free to read my response to her above. Happy Holidays #bluelivesmatter It's the bias people have even discussing LEO that they don't even see or know they have. They hear stories from others, they see the media reports and they form an opinion based on that. I'm sorry you are used to it but I'm glad you will continue with the discussion LEOwife My husband is at the county jail so he sees the people LEO brings in. Too many people outside the system really don't understand what goes on in that world. Many have no idea how often it's a badge of honor among some families to go to jail and/or prision. People have no idea how carelessly or proudly some people talk about jail. It's a world that many people think they might know about, but the reality is so far different then the sound bites in the media. Thanks to both you and your dh. I know he's the one on the street but you are the one worrying that he might not come home from his shift.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 23:43:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 23:59:47 GMT
My husband tells his trainees the first night...you will be in a citizens life 9 out of ten times for the worst moments of their lives. Even though they don't want you there, they need you there. Be mindful of that.
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azredhead
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Post by azredhead on Dec 23, 2014 0:17:31 GMT
Why shouldn't LeoWife have a say? If anyone knows who the cops are she does. Why should she not be able to defend his fellow officers? they aren't all racists?
GaJenny- I know that looks like a peaceful protest right? , weeks later two dead officers. Lord bless them and their families. Yet if they don't show up fast enough they aren't doing their jobs.They aren't all bad and it should go for the criminals and the cops you do the wrong things you should be accountable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 0:32:27 GMT
I have respect for law enforcement, no question. I also believe that the "few bad apples" are often protected by the good, and culturally, that shakes confidence and respect in the institution itself. I would like to see LEO outraged that their reputations are sullied by bad cops, that a few bad apples make everyone look bad and make communities distrustful of the police. Those officers should speak up, without fear of violent retribution from the bad officers. But it seems accepted and the rule that they stay quiet about corruption and internal problems, and that does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the institution of law enforcement, no matter how much respect or admiration I have for an individual officer.
Some professions - police, clergy, etc - naturally draw outrage when they behave badly and then act "above the law". I feel that those people should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe, not a lower one. I expect better behavior from those people, and when corruption or misconduct comes to light, it is a huge confidence shaker and a PR mess. That's not a justification for anything, but that dynamic plays a part in hostility towards the police, particularly in the information age when everything eventually comes to light.
My 0.02.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Jun 25, 2014 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Dec 23, 2014 1:27:31 GMT
Sarah and I-95 both, are perpetuating a myth. I don't find that to be "making excellent points". Funny, if someone has actual experience in the topic and backs up your opinion, they know what they're talking about and have the facts and experience to back it up. But the minute their facts and experience negate your opinion, they're "too close to the situation to be objective". Just a general observation on what happens on this board. Hi, Thank you for this, but sadly I'm use to it. LEO families are "too Close", not objective enough, feel their spouse deserves more and so on. I'm use to it, but will speak up, I have a thick skin and use it proudly whenever I can. She's da*n right I'm too close, tell me how many time your spouse has ... walked in the door 4 hours late because he didn't want to leave a beaten women and child alone at the hospital and didn't feel right until they got into a shelter and were safe and secure and has to deal with the a-hole coming to department and trying to assault him...because he wants his wife. Or when I have to show and speak to my girls about criminals following them home and the safety procedures they have to take let her let me know. Thank you for speaking up...feel free to read my response to her above. Happy Holidays #bluelivesmatter Chin up girl ❤ no one understands this life unless they live it.
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Dec 23, 2014 1:29:51 GMT
I have respect for law enforcement, no question. I also believe that the "few bad apples" are often protected by the good, and culturally, that shakes confidence and respect in the institution itself. I would like to see LEO outraged that their reputations are sullied by bad cops, that a few bad apples make everyone look bad and make communities distrustful of the police. Those officers should speak up, without fear of violent retribution from the bad officers. But it seems accepted and the rule that they stay quiet about corruption and internal problems, and that does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the institution of law enforcement, no matter how much respect or admiration I have for an individual officer. Some professions - police, clergy, etc - naturally draw outrage when they behave badly and then act "above the law". I feel that those people should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe, not a lower one. I expect better behavior from those people, and when corruption or misconduct comes to light, it is a huge confidence shaker and a PR mess. That's not a justification for anything, but that dynamic plays a part in hostility towards the police, particularly in the information age when everything eventually comes to light. My 0.02. Totally with ya. The blue code of silence needs to end. Unfortunately to me it's the same as the snitch rule with gangs.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Dec 23, 2014 1:31:42 GMT
gmcwife1 thank you and your husband! If it wasn't for guys like your husband, my DH wouldn't have a place to dump the idiots he arrests onto. Lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 1:51:11 GMT
I have respect for law enforcement, no question. I also believe that the "few bad apples" are often protected by the good, and culturally, that shakes confidence and respect in the institution itself. I would like to see LEO outraged that their reputations are sullied by bad cops, that a few bad apples make everyone look bad and make communities distrustful of the police. Those officers should speak up, without fear of violent retribution from the bad officers. But it seems accepted and the rule that they stay quiet about corruption and internal problems, and that does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the institution of law enforcement, no matter how much respect or admiration I have for an individual officer. Some professions - police, clergy, etc - naturally draw outrage when they behave badly and then act "above the law". I feel that those people should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe, not a lower one. I expect better behavior from those people, and when corruption or misconduct comes to light, it is a huge confidence shaker and a PR mess. That's not a justification for anything, but that dynamic plays a part in hostility towards the police, particularly in the information age when everything eventually comes to light. My 0.02. They are outraged, the goods ones hate that they do their jobs well and the bad ones take the good they do an sully it. If your referring to the blue wall or the blue line the meaning has changed, At least where we live. Gone are the days of protecting those that abuse the badge and sully the power that is intrusted to them. Most, not all, as with any profession do not go into this carrer for the money or the power but to serve and protect and make a diffrence in their community. So to answer the statement the good LEO are outraged by those that choose to sully the honor of being a LEO. HAPPY HOLIDAYS #bluelivesmatter
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 1:53:52 GMT
Ok ladies let's turn the disscussion in a different way...reform...what kind of reform? How does it start...be thoughtful.
Night ladies...see you in the am
Happy Holidays #bluelivesmatter
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Post by gmcwife1 on Dec 23, 2014 2:17:37 GMT
gmcwife1 thank you and your husband! If it wasn't for guys like your husband, my DH wouldn't have a place to dump the idiots he arrests onto. Lol Thank you and your dh too I don't know how LEO wives do it. I spent too many years worrying about dh's safety while he was in the Navy (gunnersmate) that I asked him to not be a Police Officer Our family is very pro military and Law Enforcement. That doesn't mean we support the bad or look away, but we don't paint everyone with the same brush.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Dec 23, 2014 2:26:43 GMT
gmcwife1 thank you and your husband! If it wasn't for guys like your husband, my DH wouldn't have a place to dump the idiots he arrests onto. Lol Thank you and your dh too I don't know how LEO wives do it. I spent too many years worrying about dh's safety while he was in the Navy (gunnersmate) that I asked him to not be a Police Officer Our family is very pro military and Law Enforcement. That doesn't mean we support the bad or look away, but we don't paint everyone with the same brush. That's exactly how I feel. Bad apples everywhere along with the good. My Ex was in Navy. I always worried he would fall off the ship lol...now looking back I kinda wish he would have! I know that's so mean of me to say
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