The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 3,019
Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Oct 2, 2024 18:09:52 GMT
I am but one high school English teacher in one high school in Minnesota, so do with that what you will. There is a lot of truth to that article, and Merge did a great job of explaining why; however, I do not think it is the norm for students to not read ANY novels. FYI: 9-11th grade lit and comp is 2 trimesters Our students get:--one in 9th: Of Mice and Men --two in 10th: Copper Sun (YA novel) and a small group choice novel (have to select from a small list) --two in 11th (True Diary of a Part-Time Indian and To Kill a Mockingbird) --"it depends" in 12th (0-10 depending on the course). I don't teach a full novel in Mythology as it doesn't really fit but we do read most of Neil Gaiman's Norse Mythology and most kids read the whole thing but they do have a choice. In Mass Comm, I teach "Ready Player One", Appreciation of Lit teaches a couple (Night and something else that is survival lit), Humanities teaches Kite Runner and I think something else. AP probably reads around 10 novels but that is 2-3 trimesters and the other senior lit classes are only one tri---they have a tri of Comp 12 as well. --we also read two full-length plays (Romeo and Juliet in 9th and The Crucible in 11th). Now, do all kids read them? No, but they are taught. I have more to say, but I only have a couple more minutes, so I will try to come back when I have time. I’m also in MN and that hasn’t been my kid’s experience at all. Granted, she has been in all advanced classes since 7th grade (they didn’t have the kids split out in 6th which was their first year post Covid) so I’m not sure what they do in general ed English, but she has had multiple full novels assigned in every grade since then. This year alone (9th) I know they are reading something like 4-5 of them in her English class including The Perks of Being a Wallflower, The Odyssey, Romeo and Juliet, To Kill a Mockingbird and possibly others. This is in addition to having choice books that they are to read for a minimum of 30 minutes a day outside of class time which has never been an issue for her. It just blows my mind that there are kids going into college today who have never read a full novel. I guess it shouldn’t though because there were kids in my high school class that were being offered full athletic scholarships who were barely going to graduate. I think you said it yourself, your DD is in advanced classes. I guess I should have mentioned that we have honors 10 and College in the Classroom for 11th as options. 10th reads another novel (so three novels in 2 trimesters) and 11th reads a few. I don't know how many. It is through SCSU, so it is a college class. Also, how many trimesters/semesters does she have? I am sure if our kids had English all year (which I think they should), they would read more novels. I don't think we are as different as you think. All classes have choice novels as well. That is a standard.
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Post by melanell on Oct 2, 2024 18:25:10 GMT
I can read. I can finish multiple books in 3 months, heck I can finish multiple books in 1 month. But are they teaching the same tired books from 1988? From what I've seen, yes and no. There are several books I read in middle school and high school that my children have also read so far. Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451, several Shakespeare plays, Beowulf, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Odyssey, Dracula, The Outsiders. There are some they have read in school that I did not. (Many times, but not all, because they were published after I graduated high school.) The Book Thief, Salt to the Sea, Rocket Boys/October Sky, A Raisin in the Sun, Ella Minnow Pea, Walk Two Moons, Jefferson's Sons, Hatchet. And many times my kids are given the choice between one or more books, which I see happening far more with them then it did when I was in school. In those cases they often get to choose between some older "classics" and more modern choices. So far (though I do still have a child with 3 more years of unknown literary assignments ahead of them) no one has had to read The Pilgrim's Progress, and I am relieved on their behalf. Reading and writing my report on Pilgrim's Progress made me feel like poor Charlie Brown trying to read War and Peace while everyone else was celebrating New Year's.
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Post by Merge on Oct 2, 2024 18:29:03 GMT
It's totally OK to read more contemporary books. There's nothing inherently better about a well-written novel from 1830 than there is about a well-written novel from 2015, and students are often better able to connect with the more recent novels. Long form reading, however, IS important. Students need to understand how character development, structure, and theme work through the course of a longer work, in addition to other things I don't know about, I'm sure, because I'm not an English teacher. Our schools have long devalued the study of art in this way, though - completely missing that the ability to analyze a longer work and communicate about it translates to many important life and job skills. My daughter, for example, works as an HR data analyst at a large company. She consistently is tasked with reading long documents and comparing them with spreadsheet data, and then communicating clearly about trends and themes over time to a high-level audience. Her strong background in analyzing literature and historical documents and writing about them have contributed to making her a great fit for this job. I'll also say that even though we as a society tend to devalue the arts as a profession, the fact is that almost no one goes a single day without enjoying the work of an artist, whether through music, TV, film, visual art, or literature. It is prevalent everywhere we go. If we want to continue to be able to enjoy art, that starts with exposing young people not only to the art itself but how it is created, and analysis of what constitutes high-quality art. For literature, that has to include novel studies. Going back to your question about whether kids need to read older novels, I would say that it's important for them to have exposure to some of the works that have left their mark on our society and on future works of art. They should have some background in Shakespeare, and not just in a short passage, but in the history of that time and how his work has influenced the way we talk, think, and enjoy art in the modern day. Probably also Charles Dickens for those reasons. They should also have been exposed to Mozart and Beethoven, and DaVinci and Renoir as well - though that's often left to elementary music and art teachers (if they have them) and never touched on again. I will repeat what I said above - we need to be looking at what the best private schools do for their students and make that the goal. The advent of high-stakes standardized testing "accountability" has had the opposite effect of what was intended. It's caused public schools to dumb down the curriculum to nothing more than test prep, rather than allowing trained professional teachers to curate standards-based curricula that actually inspires learning. IMO when the government decided to go after the schools for "low performance," they went barking up the wrong tree. The problem was never the schools. The problem was and is poverty. Low academic performance is correlated more strongly with the family's SES status than any other single marker. Not because poor kids can't learn, but because Maslow's hierarchy is still applicable today. Kids who lack adequate food, shelter, and personal safety aren't in a place where they can think about their learning the way they need to. Anyway. Sorry you got this morning's novel on this topic. I think my kids get a good education in their public schools, largely because they have really smart, motivated teachers who care about learning. One of the ongoing frustrations I've had, as a person who does care about equity, is that district central staff here often say that they are eliminated advanced options, alternative programming, enrichment, etc. in the name of equity when all they are doing is making it so that kids like mine who have resourced, savvy parents get what they need and kids who don't, don't. Bill Gates is responsible for a lot of suggestions for education reform that lean in the direction of big classes, lots of tech, complete standardization, and lots of high-stakes testing. You know where he sent his kids to school? The private school here that has tiny classes, a very traditional classical private-school curriculum, and pretty much no tech at all. It's . . . interesting, isn't it? You and I are 100% on the same page with this.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 2, 2024 23:36:49 GMT
I think you said it yourself, your DD is in advanced classes. I guess I should have mentioned that we have honors 10 and College in the Classroom for 11th as options. 10th reads another novel (so three novels in 2 trimesters) and 11th reads a few. I don't know how many. It is through SCSU, so it is a college class. Also, how many trimesters/semesters does she have? I am sure if our kids had English all year (which I think they should), they would read more novels. I don't think we are as different as you think. All classes have choice novels as well. That is a standard. Right, but who are the kids that are college bound? I would think they would be the ones in the advanced classes so how are they not reading novels in AP English? My kid’s school is on semesters and they have to have 8 English credits to graduate.
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