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Post by MichyM on Nov 9, 2024 16:23:40 GMT
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Nov 9, 2024 16:30:32 GMT
I, too, have been surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet. I don't know much other than what I heard on the Today Show.
I may have this wrong, but they showed the Israeli team shouting death to Arabs and then things went very wrong. Was that the start of the events?
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Post by Merge on Nov 9, 2024 16:34:02 GMT
Literally home of the Anne Frank house. I don't get it.
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Post by MichyM on Nov 9, 2024 16:36:17 GMT
I, too, have been surprised that this hasn't been brought up yet. I don't know much other than what I heard on the Today Show. I may have this wrong, but they showed the Israeli team shouting death to Arabs and then things went very wrong. Was that the start of the events? Yes, if you read the article(s), Jews were chanting (IMO horrible) slogans as they entered the stadium. The day before they had ripped down a Palestinian flag in the city. |
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Post by MichyM on Nov 9, 2024 16:36:51 GMT
Literally home of the Anne Frank house. I don't get it. Where 2/3rds of the Jewish population was slaughtered to boot. |
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pilcas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,236 
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Post by pilcas on Nov 9, 2024 16:41:18 GMT
Violence during international soccer games is actually quite common. Certain countries have organized, they call them ultras, fan groups that often travel to other countries for games and start campground battles in city centers with the Ulta fans of the local team. Sometimes there is even a time and place agreed upon. Add a little political twist to this and here we have it. It wouldn’t have made the news here if it hadn’t been that the team from Israel was involved.
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Post by MichyM on Nov 9, 2024 16:46:55 GMT
Violence during international soccer games is actually quite common. Certain countries have organized, they call them ultras, fan groups that often travel to other countries for games and start campground battles in city centers with the Ulta fans of the local team. Sometimes there is even a time and place agreed upon. Add a little political twist to this and here we have it. It wouldn’t have made the news here if it hadn’t been that the team from Israel was involved.But it was. Therefore it makes the news due to the past persecution of Jews and the current suffering of Palestinians in Gaza at the hands of Israel. Appears to me that you're simply brushing this off as nothingness. That is a shame. |
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Post by gorgeouskid on Nov 9, 2024 16:50:37 GMT
This article is an interesting take on Western media's insistence to paint the Israelis as only victims.
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Post by MichyM on Nov 9, 2024 17:11:47 GMT
This article is an interesting take on Western media's insistence to paint the Israelis as only victims. Thank you. I’m trying to get out the door so I just skimmed it. Will thoroughly read it later today. ETA: as you all can see from my replies, I do not find the Israeli citizens to be blameless in this. |
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Post by hopemax on Nov 9, 2024 17:14:35 GMT
I need to know more about what happened.
Soccer hooliganism is a real thing, but citizens should let their law enforcement deal with it instead of taking it into their own hands. Otherwise, we start talking about good Jews and that’s where I get concerned.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Nov 11, 2024 13:18:47 GMT
This article is an interesting take on Western media's insistence to paint the Israelis as only victims. Thanks for sharing. |
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lesley
Drama Llama
My best friend Turriff, desperately missed.
Posts: 7,339
Location: Scotland, Scotland, Scotland
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Post by lesley on Nov 11, 2024 13:35:10 GMT
Violence during international soccer games is actually quite common. Certain countries have organized, they call them ultras, fan groups that often travel to other countries for games and start campground battles in city centers with the Ulta fans of the local team. Sometimes there is even a time and place agreed upon. Add a little political twist to this and here we have it. It wouldn’t have made the news here if it hadn’t been that the team from Israel was involved.But it was. Therefore it makes the news due to the past persecution of Jews and the current suffering of Palestinians in Gaza at the hands of Israel. Appears to me that you're simply brushing this off as nothingness. That is a shame.I don’t see it as brushing it off at all. To my mind, it was football hooliganism that on this occasion involved Israeli fans. Not because they were Jewish, but because they were Israeli. |
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Post by jill8909 on Nov 11, 2024 13:44:14 GMT
what thoughts could any decent person possibly have other than despicable and scary.
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Post by mollycoddle on Nov 11, 2024 13:51:03 GMT
I would like to hear what our European Peas have to say. We got brief videos, and it looked like the Dutch police were outnumbered and out fought. But I do not know if this is a fair characterization. I did not see them using collapsible batons or anything that would have dispersed the attackers. But again, I only saw brief videos, so maybe this is unfair.
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valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,797
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Post by valincal on Nov 11, 2024 13:53:53 GMT
My friends and I are in Germany right now, but we were in Amsterdam the night this happened. Literally at the Anne Frank house that evening. We stayed near Dam Square, next to the main train station, but didn’t see any of the violence. We had seen peaceful protests in the Dam Square on previous days.
We were very sad and shocked to hear about this the next day. 😞 The story seems to have changed from what I initially read.
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Nov 11, 2024 13:57:35 GMT
I just heard that Israelis are being told not to go to any organized sports games like the next soccer game in Paris.
I just wonder how much of this could have been avoided if the Istaelis hadn't been chanting anti-arab slogans and ripping down flags to start with. I agree that the response of attacks doesn't fit the original level of what the Israelis were doing but I wonder how much could have been prevented.
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Post by mollycoddle on Nov 11, 2024 14:01:41 GMT
I just heard that Israelis are being told not to go to any organized sports games like the next soccer game in Paris. I just wonder how much of this could have been avoided if the Istaelis hadn't been chanting anti-arab slogans and ripping down flags to start with. I agree that the response of attacks doesn't fit the original level of what the Israelis were doing but I wonder how much could have been prevented. That was a bad idea, no doubt, but of course it is not an excuse to beat people. |
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Post by gar on Nov 11, 2024 14:03:59 GMT
I would like to hear what our European Peas have to say. We got brief videos, and it looked like the Dutch police were outnumbered and out fought. But I do not know if this is a fair characterization. I did not see them using collapsible batons or anything that would have dispersed the attackers. But again, I only saw brief videos, so maybe this is unfair. (BBC) takes a few mins to get going but covers and discusses the riots. |
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Nov 11, 2024 14:25:46 GMT
I just heard that Israelis are being told not to go to any organized sports games like the next soccer game in Paris. I just wonder how much of this could have been avoided if the Istaelis hadn't been chanting anti-arab slogans and ripping down flags to start with. I agree that the response of attacks doesn't fit the original level of what the Israelis were doing but I wonder how much could have been prevented. That was a bad idea, no doubt, but of course it is not an excuse to beat people. Agreed. I just wish it hadn't given fuel to what was already poised to be a fire. |
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Post by gar on Nov 11, 2024 15:17:21 GMT
I'm sorry mollycoddle, that wasn't much of a 'discussion' I realised afterwards. I'll see if I can find some more reports. |
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Post by hopemax on Nov 11, 2024 15:43:58 GMT
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Nov 11, 2024 15:51:03 GMT
I spent a lot of time in Argentina so I'm pretty familiar with how bad the violence can get. In Argentina, they have a section of seating called 'The populare' where you basically take your life in your own hands to sit in that section because it's so violent. |
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Post by monklady123 on Nov 11, 2024 17:09:01 GMT
I hadn't heard about this because I've been boycotting all news for at least a month, for obvious reasons.  I'll go read the articles. |
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Tearisci
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
Nov 6, 2018 16:34:30 GMT
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Post by Tearisci on Nov 11, 2024 18:01:23 GMT
My take is that the Israelis were doing what other fans do in soccer countries based on what I've seen and read here. Is this a normal part of hooligan culture? Seems to be, but it the level of violence as a result of "accepted" behavior went off the rails.
Should the Israelis do what they have been purported have done- probably not but the reaction of the violence went way beyond normal based on their country of origin.
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Post by MichyM on Nov 11, 2024 20:39:13 GMT
This article is an interesting take on Western media's insistence to paint the Israelis as only victims. Thank you again for posting this article. I had forgotten to get back to it, but just finished reading it. I appreciate having a different outlook than the one we typically get. Looks like an interesting site, I've never heard of it before. |
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Post by MichyM on Nov 11, 2024 20:45:11 GMT
On a personal note, it really kills me that it is now recommended to avoid wearing anything that identifies one as a Jew out in public. And as an act of my own little defiance, I purchased a small (3/8") solid, simple gold Star of David necklace this weekend. I should have it in a week or two. I have had a larger pendant since I was a young woman, but have not worn it for a very long time due to feeling uneasy about it. Back in 2006 the Jewish Federation here in Seattle (about a mile from me) suffered a mass shooting/hostage situation (a hate crime, not terrorism) where 5 were injured and one was killed. I don't think I've worn anything identifying myself as a Jew since then :/ |
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Post by MichyM on Nov 11, 2024 20:48:22 GMT
I just heard that Israelis are being told not to go to any organized sports games like the next soccer game in Paris. I just wonder how much of this could have been avoided if the Istaelis hadn't been chanting anti-arab slogans and ripping down flags to start with. I agree that the response of attacks doesn't fit the original level of what the Israelis were doing but I wonder how much could have been prevented. Totally agree. I believe their actions may well have instigated the physical attacks. The retaliation however was highly elevated in response IMO. |
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Post by MichyM on Nov 11, 2024 20:50:54 GMT
I would like to hear what our European Peas have to say. We got brief videos, and it looked like the Dutch police were outnumbered and out fought. But I do not know if this is a fair characterization. I did not see them using collapsible batons or anything that would have dispersed the attackers. But again, I only saw brief videos, so maybe this is unfair. I read somewhere the other day that Amsterdam deployed 800 police officers the evening of the match. I have no idea if that is a normal amount for a soccer match in Amsterdam, or greater due to the game being against the Israeli team. |
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Post by MichyM on Nov 11, 2024 20:56:14 GMT
My take is that the Israelis were doing what other fans do in soccer countries based on what I've seen and read here. Is this a normal part of hooligan culture? Seems to be, but it the level of violence as a result of "accepted" behavior went off the rails. Should the Israelis do what they have been purported have done- probably not but the reaction of the violence went way beyond normal based on their country of origin. After reading several articles beyond what I posted in the OP, and reading the replies here, that's where I sit as well. I can't imagine the same (chasing down and beating people) scenario playing out if it had been "the other side(s)" in the current Middle East situation who ripped down an Israeli flag and/or chanted anti-Israeli (what the Israelis chanted was horrible, don't get me wrong) things on their way into the match. |
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