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Post by jeremysgirl on May 27, 2025 12:01:16 GMT
I had read the original article in The Atlantic about the housing crisis. Gift Link: How Progressives Froze the American Dream It's a very lengthy article that hits upon many different ideas of things contributing to the fact that Americans are less mobile. But what was interesting to me are the letters to the editor regarding the points made in this article because I think the author is really overlooking a huge contributor. He touched on the fact that most households are two income, making it more difficult for people to uproot for the growth potential of one partner's career but he seemed dismissive of this reason. And then there is also the joint custody argument. Many divorced households just can't up and leave a community when there are minor children involved. But he states it in one sentence and then blows right past these as an explanation and I think they are way more valid than a lot of other reasons. But here are two letters to the editor that I thought were interesting:
I will admit to you that this was a factor in my decision on where I was going to live. At the end of my first marriage, we had lost our jobs in the recession, and so we moved about 4 hours south of here to Indianapolis. My DH wasn't interested in any childcare or household tasks so all of that had been my domain and then suddenly, I was without my mom. For all her faults, she was a good grandma and though she was working full time, she was always helping me on the weekends with my kids. And now she was 4 hours away and I had a husband who did nothing and no friends either and it was a huge burden to bear without any kind of village. As soon as I made the decision to divorce him, I moved the kids and I back to Michigan. My family is not perfect, but they've always been willing to help with household stuff, pet care when we vacation, child care when we were in that stage, rides when cars break down, etc. I don't live in the most perfect place, but having had my family close and then having had my family far away for a year and half really taught me how much I appreciated them closer. And then there is this comment:
And I have to say, that at least in my sphere of experience, this plays a part too. And I think many of you have probably gotten this vibe from many of my posts here, but I have a real balance between striving and contentment. For example, I wanted to live in a much more diverse area than I grew up in, so I do, but the size of my city is still very small comparatively. Or like my job, I enjoy having a good career, but I don't need to make a huge amount of money and I was fine to take a step back to have less drama and stress at work. Jeremy and I have what we call small "d" dreams (as opposed to what we refer to as big "D" Dreams). And don't think I am judging, I'm not. It doesn't matter to me what you choose/have chosen for yourself and your family. I'm just saying this comment resonated with me because of my personality type. I think I have the ability to be content with much less than a lot of people. With that said, the author makes the case that movement plays a huge part in the economy, I can't remember the statistic, so there's something to be said for the strivers.  But any thoughts about this?
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Post by lisae on May 27, 2025 12:54:21 GMT
My first husband and I grew up about 8 miles apart and our families still lived here so it was natural for us to settle here. Neither of us considered moving somewhere else. In a few years I was divorced but settled into a career with a good company and still had no desire to move.
Over the years the big issue became money. I built a home which I still live in. I have nearly 2000 heated square feet with basement, garage, and a nice separate outbuilding on several acres of land. Yet, I could not buy a condo in most cities for what I could sell my current home and land for. I couldn't get near nicer communities in Washington or California or New York.
We considered a move to another area but we would have to downsize and probably add more money to get something livable even staying in the South. Also, I really don't want to start over at our age. I still have a lot of family here. We aren't in each other's everyday lives but we can call on each other if needed.
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Post by Merge on May 27, 2025 13:01:38 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive.
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 27, 2025 13:16:22 GMT
DH and I lived in our tiny starter home for 21 years that we had long outgrown in part because our moms needed a lot of help later in life. We had wanted to move out of the city at least a decade earlier than we did, but we stayed put until our moms were both gone because both of us knew that it would only add to our own stress having to commute further to help with their increasing need for care.
And just because a parent is in a facility doesn’t necessarily mean that now you’re totally off the hook. We had to supply quite a few things for my mom’s care ourselves, and sometimes with little notice so we’d have to drop everything to run out to get what she needed and bring it to her. Or the times when one or the other needed medical attention and had to be taken in for care, occasionally in the middle of the night. 😬 Adding an extra 20-30 minute commute on each end would only have compounded the stress we already were feeling from a tense situation.
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 27, 2025 13:21:46 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. This is a great point. Just for kicks and giggles, I looked up the value of the house I grew up in on Zillow. The house my parents bought in 1971 for around $50K is currently valued at $470K. And the house DH and I bought in 1989 for $55K is currently valued at $260K. I don’t think you could buy an empty lot in either of those places now for $50K.
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Post by pantsonfire on May 27, 2025 13:30:34 GMT
Haven't read the article but did it touch on corporations swooping in to lower income neighborhoods and buying property to flip and sell at 2-3x what homes sold privately go for?
Many of these areas do not have the same growth as upper income areas and when the cultures swoop in and buy up property, it incomes out residents who have lived there a long time. And in many of those homes it is multi generational. That itself also reduces housing mobility. Families live together so they can afford basic needs. Their lack of education or lack of job stability in their area makes owning their own home unrealistic. And no way could they move to a higher income area.
My siblings moved away. I want to stay put. Has nothing to do with costs but more to do with medical care. I don't want to be 30+ min away from top notch health care.
We are 2 cities away from dh's district. Takes him 15-20 min to get to work. That is another reason.
Now when he retired we may move to a different city. But who knows.
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 27, 2025 13:48:16 GMT
Haven't read the article but did it touch on corporations swooping in to lower income neighborhoods and buying property to flip and sell at 2-3x what homes sold privately go for? Many of these areas do not have the same growth as upper income areas and when the cultures swoop in and buy up property, it incomes out residents who have lived there a long time. And in many of those homes it is multi generational. That itself also reduces housing mobility. Families live together so they can afford basic needs. Their lack of education or lack of job stability in their area makes owning their own home unrealistic. And no way could they move to a higher income area. My siblings moved away. I want to stay put. Has nothing to do with costs but more to do with medical care. I don't want to be 30+ min away from top notch health care. We are 2 cities away from dh's district. Takes him 15-20 min to get to work. That is another reason. Now when he retired we may move to a different city. But who knows. My sister has said that’s what’s happening in TN where she lives. Companies come in and buy up all the cheap properties that need rehabbing, fix them up and resell. But then again, she and her DH have done the exact same thing three times since they moved down there 20 years ago: bought a cheap house, dumped in some money and sweat equity and resold a few years later for 2-3x what they paid for it. Even though they aren’t a corporation doing it the net result is the same which is fewer low cost homes in decent places for younger, poorer people to buy.
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Post by melanell on May 27, 2025 13:52:44 GMT
The letters to the editor that you posted are definitely the reasons DH & I have opted to stay in the town where we both grew up.
We wanted to be near family, and that won out over the idea that we might be able to make more money elsewhere.
But these were choices we were making nearly 30 years ago. Things are very different with housing cost where we live, now. If we were trying to get our own place in our early 20s now, I don't know how realistic it would be that we could find someplace in our home town that we could afford.
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Post by melanell on May 27, 2025 13:59:00 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. I agree. Investors have been snapping up homes around here to use as rentals. We see that same issue with the smallest homes or those in need of work, too. Those used to be the ways a person/couple/family could break into owning a home, but now investors offer cash for a quick sale, buy up all of the least expensive homes, slap a Home Depot gloss over the entire place for a dime, then sell the house as "completely updated" for a price none of those same people searching for a home can afford. Never mind that some of those updates won't last a decade. So right now all homes are expensive, both to own and to rent. There has been a tremendous jump in rental prices in the past 5 years.
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Post by ntsf on May 27, 2025 14:12:05 GMT
I think the letter writers have sort of a. narrow view of the past.. I'm the 4th generation that moved away from family for various reasons.. and we are the third generation that are city dwellers. we don't have large families to live near. the norm is not to live near family. and there were no jobs in my dh's field in the city he grew up in.. so he moved for work. I grew up 2000 miles from my grandparents and my kids lived 1000 miles from their grandparents. and my great grandparents on both sides left the farm/small town to move to cities for more opportunities.
there are a lot of myths running around.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 27, 2025 14:28:41 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. I think there may be some misunderstanding. The author sites statistics that show mobility is down. People are moving *less* than they were in previous decades. Now that I've written that I'm considering the possibility that you are doubting the author's take that people are moving less?
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 27, 2025 14:31:04 GMT
it incomes out residents who have lived there a long time. And in many of those homes it is multi generational. That itself also reduces housing mobility. Families live together so they can afford basic needs. This is a good point which I cannot remember if he touched on in the article. I feel like he glossed over so many reasons. Like he knew he would get called on it so he mentioned it, but he dismissed it without data.
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Post by katlady on May 27, 2025 14:50:43 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. I think there may be some misunderstanding. The author sites statistics that show mobility is down. People are moving *less* than they were in previous decades. Now that I've written that I'm considering the possibility that you are doubting the author's take that people are moving less? Maybe mobility is down because of housing costs. It is hard to find cheap long-term rental here because many older homes have been bought up, renovated, and turned into short-term rental. So, people have to stay where they are and instead, put up with a long commute and traffic. The same with trying to find a new home. Prices are so high, people stay where are. Also, with more people now working from home, there is less need to physically move yet one still has the opportunity to move upward in their field. Although many companies now require a physical presence in the office, many still offer telecommuting.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on May 27, 2025 15:00:05 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. ^^^ THAT. I grew up in a town with 1500 people; my HS graduating class was 42. The nearest "larger" towns were 30+ miles away, and still kind of small- think only 15,000 - 25,000 people. I think maybe 10-15% of kids in my class stayed in the area... either because they grew up on the family farm and/or became farmers themselves, or because the job / trade they went into was something that was available in that area (car mechanic, for example). I got a biology degree-- there was NO way I could find work in that field, that would pay a living wage, without moving to a much more urban area. Some people do move back; my older sister and her husband now live in the house I grew up in- but that's largely because they're mostly retired-- my sister can substitute teach to make some money, and they bought the house from my mom's estate at a very reduced price. Houses in that town routinely go for a lot less than $150,000, but there's really no wages to be had without commuting to one of the larger towns / cities, so... (And on a separate note, even the family farms that were around there are now being bought out by the large, corporate farms.) eta: I was commenting on Merge 's comment, not on the actual article... but I'm wondering if 'mobility' changes based on geography-- if mobility changes whether you're looking at small towns or larger urban centers-- or based on age -- young vs. older people.
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Post by jeremysgirl on May 27, 2025 15:01:15 GMT
Maybe mobility is down because of housing costs. He talks about this in the article, as well. People, like me, for example, bought a "starter" home and never graduated into a more expensive home despite a rise in income, leaving my easy entry price home for another low income person.
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Post by pantsonfire on May 27, 2025 15:19:36 GMT
I agree with another pea about rentals.
Here a 2 bedroom 1 bath house that was "fixed up" goes for almost $3000 rent. I'm sorry but what??!! And of course they require 2-3x rent cost for monthly income. Though now it is just 1st months rent not first and last.
Honestly to me the biggest issue with housing is cost.
There is housing. There are empty homes that get snatched up by companies to rent out for way more than what people pay for their mortgage. Or close to it. And that prices out almost everyone.
Developers don't want to be held to how much they can charge. Low cost housing isn't what they want. They want to make millions.
Our city stopped a company from kicking every tenant out to refurbish low income apartments. They would be allowed to get a new contract at the tune of double their rent. The residents got together and won. They would be refurbished and they could stay. At the same rent price.
Housing is a basic need. Should never be a money maker.
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Post by Merge on May 27, 2025 16:57:39 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. I think there may be some misunderstanding. The author sites statistics that show mobility is down. People are moving *less* than they were in previous decades. Now that I've written that I'm considering the possibility that you are doubting the author's take that people are moving less? Yeah, I guess I was responding to one of the “letters to the editor” included with the OP. Sorry for not making that clear.
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Post by chaosisapony on May 27, 2025 17:17:39 GMT
I think there may be some misunderstanding. The author sites statistics that show mobility is down. People are moving *less* than they were in previous decades. Now that I've written that I'm considering the possibility that you are doubting the author's take that people are moving less? Maybe mobility is down because of housing costs. It is hard to find cheap long-term rental here because many older homes have been bought up, renovated, and turned into short-term rental. So, people have to stay where they are and instead, put up with a long commute and traffic. The same with trying to find a new home. Prices are so high, people stay where are. I think this is definitely a component. Cheaper, starter homes are snapped up by investors and sold for exorbitant prices so kids stay with their families longer. Multigenerational living because of this is becoming a lot more common where I am because of housing prices. A coworker has herself, her husband, their three kids, her mother, and her daughter, son in law, and their baby all living in one 1600 sq ft house. It's crowded and they hate it but when there are no affordable homes to be had, what else do you do? This thread made me look up my childhood home that my dad built back in the 80s. It was a 3 sided donkey barn he turned into a house with 59 acres. He sold it when I was 7 for $250,000. I will never forget him talking about how he made "a quarter of a million dollars!!!!" The acreage has since been split and the house that has the address is now a 3800 sq ft mansion with 20 acres and Zillow shows the value at $3.4 million. Personally, having roots is important to me. I value the sense of peace and contentment I get from knowing my area, knowing my neighbors, being close to my family, and having stories to share about a place from years ago. It's a comfort thing I think since I moved around so much as a kid. I also value contentment and I don't have that drive for bigger and better than many people seem to. If I never moved out of this 1200 sq ft, no garage, manufactured home I have now I'd be completely happy with that. So many people just have this more, more, more mindset where nothing ever satisfies them. So it's on to the next town, the next job, and the larger paycheck. That way of life sounds exhausting to me.
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Post by katiekaty on May 27, 2025 23:45:15 GMT
We moved a lot when I was a kid11 times from age 4 1/2 to 10, because my stepfather worked for a company that started dong contraction jobs in other states and employees were paid to follow. The owners secured the contacts and the last one didn’t make payment resulting in the company almost failing. This was close to 55-60 years ago.
I think media and resulting rise of internet plays more in why there is a decrease in movement today and less the articles stated reasons. Today that construction company would have been able to do a much deeper dive into the company that almost bankrupted them and there would have been less losses. Maybe there would have been a more centralized location rattan than floating jobs sites.
Today, you don’t have to move and try out a place as our parents. And make the best of it or move on. Today you “try it out “ with research on the net or years ago you research with newspapers which were more plentiful at the library. You got TV reports that reported on May cities so could choose better than throwing chart at a map.
We moved from a middle size town of 125,000 20 minutes from the town we grew up in 33,000 to the Houston area, 26 years ago. We did a lot of research on the internet, which was nowhere near what it is today, but it helped tremendously rather than driving to Houston and looking blindly for a place to live!
I also don’t regret moving here. We live almost 4 hours from family, not a terrible drive. I am glad we did move since the family has shrunk in size rather than grown on both DH and my sides. As a kid, a negative about living so far from family was the long drives to visit family. Sometimes slept in tents or in the car- not a fun thing as there were 6 of us kids!
We have live here, away from family, over 26 years with no regrets. I have not had to deal with parental issues, as my oldest brother and sister stepped in and said no to my offer of help, flatly, so I took a step back. My MIL prefers my SIL and one of her granddaughters for all help but wants me around for any major surgery as decision maker which I honor and willing to drive home for. We al get along, but distance has its advantages too.
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seaexplore
Prolific Pea
 
Posts: 9,366
Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on May 28, 2025 0:14:50 GMT
I think he’s missing the fact that many people move from their small or rural hometowns not for a better job, but just for any job. Or alternatively, because the city where their parents bought a house on middle class wages in the 70s has become prohibitively expensive. 100% on the prohibitively expensive! I moved 2 hours east of my parents because they live in the Bay Area and there is no way DH and I could afford to purchase a home there. We have a beautiful home “in the country” that I love. We can go to the city to visit if we choose.
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Post by guzismom on May 28, 2025 12:04:04 GMT
After my husband's medical training, there was never any doubt we would return to my roots in the DC metro area. We stayed there for 15 years and then my Mother died. It is extremely expensive to live in the DC metro area and our savings for things like retirement and college was suffering. We decided to make a switch and left for the second biggest 'city' in NM, at just around 100,000 people. Yes, it was primarily for the money; but truth is, if my Mom hadn't passed away there is no way I would have left.
Now we're on the other side of it; there are very few employment opportunities here and so both our girls have left. They're not chasing money; they're chasing JOBS and a lifestyle that is not available here. We will stay and use the savings we were able to make by moving here to travel extensively and for long periods of time to be with them.
If I had it to do over again, I would make the same choice to 'follow the money'. We didn't do it constantly, chasing the ever-larger paycheck; but we did it once and honestly, it changed everything. Both our girls have graduate degrees with no student debt; we have saved enough money to retire comfortably.
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Post by mikklynn on May 28, 2025 13:19:06 GMT
Most of my friends in their mid-60s are still in the homes they raised their families in. The cost to move to a nice, one-level townhome is way more expensive than they can sell for. My late DH and planned for our move to a detached townhome. We definitely had sticker shock. I paid a lot more for my detached townhome. Many of my peers can't afford to do so. That means their homes are not going up for sale.
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Post by guzismom on May 29, 2025 12:23:11 GMT
Most of my friends in their mid-60s are still in the homes they raised their families in. The cost to move to a nice, one-level townhome is way more expensive than they can sell for. My late DH and planned for our move to a detached townhome. We definitely had sticker shock. I paid a lot more for my detached townhome. Many of my peers can't afford to do so. That means their homes are not going up for sale. Agree. Why trade in my single family home only to have to spend ALL the proceeds on a smaller place? I'll hold on to this (my dream home) for as long as I can and hopefully one day my daughters will be charged with selling it to liquidate their inheritance. That is the plan, anyway...
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Post by crazy4scraps on May 29, 2025 16:07:39 GMT
Maybe mobility is down because of housing costs. He talks about this in the article, as well. People, like me, for example, bought a "starter" home and never graduated into a more expensive home despite a rise in income, leaving my easy entry price home for another low income person. But even the easy entry priced homes are going for much more than they used to. As I noted upthread, the house DH and I bought for $55K back in 1989 would sell now for over $250K. While wages have increased over that time too, they haven’t gone up nearly as much as home values have which would make that “entry” level home still out of reach for many looking for a starter home.
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Post by aj2hall on May 30, 2025 0:10:41 GMT
He talks about this in the article, as well. People, like me, for example, bought a "starter" home and never graduated into a more expensive home despite a rise in income, leaving my easy entry price home for another low income person. But even the easy entry priced homes are going for much more than they used to. As I noted upthread, the house DH and I bought for $55K back in 1989 would sell now for over $250K. While wages have increased over that time too, they haven’t gone up nearly as much as home values have which would make that “entry” level home still out of reach for many looking for a starter home. Also, there's more $ and incentive for builders and developers to build McMansions. Fewer starter homes are being built. And with the trend to flip homes, a lot of the existing ones are being renovated and then no longer affordable.
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Post by trixiecat on May 30, 2025 0:44:58 GMT
I agree with another pea about rentals. Here a 2 bedroom 1 bath house that was "fixed up" goes for almost $3000 rent. I'm sorry but what??!! And of course they require 2-3x rent cost for monthly income. Though now it is just 1st months rent not first and last. Honestly to me the biggest issue with housing is cost. There is housing. There are empty homes that get snatched up by companies to rent out for way more than what people pay for their mortgage. Or close to it. And that prices out almost everyone. Developers don't want to be held to how much they can charge. Low cost housing isn't what they want. They want to make millions. Our city stopped a company from kicking every tenant out to refurbish low income apartments. They would be allowed to get a new contract at the tune of double their rent. The residents got together and won. They would be refurbished and they could stay. At the same rent price. Housing is a basic need. Should never be a money maker.
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Post by trixiecat on May 30, 2025 0:55:35 GMT
I agree with another pea about rentals. Here a 2 bedroom 1 bath house that was "fixed up" goes for almost $3000 rent. I'm sorry but what??!! And of course they require 2-3x rent cost for monthly income. Though now it is just 1st months rent not first and last. Honestly to me the biggest issue with housing is cost. There is housing. There are empty homes that get snatched up by companies to rent out for way more than what people pay for their mortgage. Or close to it. And that prices out almost everyone. Developers don't want to be held to how much they can charge. Low cost housing isn't what they want. They want to make millions. Our city stopped a company from kicking every tenant out to refurbish low income apartments. They would be allowed to get a new contract at the tune of double their rent. The residents got together and won. They would be refurbished and they could stay. At the same rent price. Housing is a basic need. Should never be a money maker. You are so right. I live in the Philadelphia area. My husband and I are looking to downsize for two years until we decide what we want to do. To rent a 30 year old townhouse - 1,400 square feet is $2,800. Original bathrooms and few upgrades. I can’t tell you the dumps we have looked at. Fingers crossed we are looking at an old townhouse that has been completely redone next week. If this doesn’t work I think we are done looking for the time being. We live in a very affluent area. Any housing that hits the market between $450K - $1.2M goes within days. And it keeps going up. And they are going over asking. I honestly don’t know how a young couple can afford to buy anything without help if they are even fortunate enough to have that.
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Post by busy on May 30, 2025 1:05:09 GMT
When we bought where we are, we never expected to stay for so long. Thought it would be a few years at the most. Now it's been 16. But we got such a great purchase price (bought new construction in 2009 from a builder who was getting hit hard by the housing crisis and needed to unload the last few homes in our completed neighborhood to get some cash) and then refi'ed to 2.79% when rates got really low in 2012. And then values here and everywhere went WILD.
We have a ton of equity now, but even taking that into account, if we were to sell and upgrade either here or in some other state (I work remotely, but DH has had a couple offers in other places) - our monthly housing costs would easily increase 3-4x given current selling prices and current mortgage rates. Could we afford it? Yes. But does it make sense? No. None of the offers has been good enough to make it reasonable to take on that huge COL increase.
So, here we stay. I'm sure we're not alone in feeling a little trapped by (but also very grateful for) our current housing situation.
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