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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:04:31 GMT
Who is defending criminal behavior? My point was I can UNDERSTAND how this COULD happen given the nature of their lifestyle. These kids are freakishly immature and repressed about sexuality. A boy with crazy teenage hormones, a sexually repressive 'religion'/belief system, no outlet for information/curiosity fact checking, no privacy for dealing with your own damn body...recipe for disaster! He SHOULD have been punished! But a public hanging NOW doesn't erase the problem. And for ME..fondling breasts is WAY better in my minds cubicle than genitals. It's all wrong...but that just seems much worse to me. Abuse is abuse just like a sin is a sin but we all have our own levels of atrocity I agree with you and another poster said he did this when he was 10, not 14. I do feel sorry for the victims and feel it a shame he never got counseling. However I think that was many years ago and now he sleeps with Anna so his curiosity in that department is now gone. Nevermind
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Olan
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Post by Olan on May 22, 2015 15:05:16 GMT
As I said before I read all of her posts on the thread I think in 10 pagers people selectively quote or even selectively read.. Scrappower what was your interpretation of her comments? She made assumptions that I wasn't a minor (I was) when I was abused and then went on saying it was different because I wasn't. I don't care her reasoning. What she claimed was wrong. And I never said names of victims should be released. Not once. So the argument is moot. I said the abuser should be made public. Your perception is your reality. Her assumptions was wrong but for what it's worth I don't think her intentions were to discount your experiences because of your age. Have a great day
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:06:02 GMT
Who is defending criminal behavior? My point was I can UNDERSTAND how this COULD happen given the nature of their lifestyle. These kids are freakishly immature and repressed about sexuality. A boy with crazy teenage hormones, a sexually repressive 'religion'/belief system, no outlet for information/curiosity fact checking, no privacy for dealing with your own damn body...recipe for disaster! He SHOULD have been punished! But a public hanging NOW doesn't erase the problem. And for ME..fondling breasts is WAY better in my minds cubicle than genitals. It's all wrong...but that just seems much worse to me. Abuse is abuse just like a sin is a sin but we all have our own levels of atrocity I agree with you and another poster said he did this when he was 10, not 14. I do feel sorry for the victims and feel it a shame he never got counseling. However I think that was many years ago and now he sleeps with Anna so his curiosity in that department is now gone. No just no. He was 14-16 when this happened. And sleeping with someone else doesn't change an abuser. You are very naive.
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Post by alittleintrepid on May 22, 2015 15:06:03 GMT
I agree with you and another poster said he did this when he was 10, not 14. I do feel sorry for the victims and feel it a shame he never got counseling. However I think that was many years ago and now he sleeps with Anna so his curiosity in that department is now gone. I don't think we know one way or the other if his "curiosity" or predilections are gone. Sleeping with Anna and having deviant thoughts/behaviours are not necessarily mutually exclusive. ETA.. Was posting at the same time as scrappower. So, I amend my statement to say " " to Scrappower's post.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 22, 2015 15:07:07 GMT
Who is defending criminal behavior? My point was I can UNDERSTAND how this COULD happen given the nature of their lifestyle. These kids are freakishly immature and repressed about sexuality. A boy with crazy teenage hormones, a sexually repressive 'religion'/belief system, no outlet for information/curiosity fact checking, no privacy for dealing with your own damn body...recipe for disaster! He SHOULD have been punished! But a public hanging NOW doesn't erase the problem. And for ME..fondling breasts is WAY better in my minds cubicle than genitals. It's all wrong...but that just seems much worse to me. Abuse is abuse just like a sin is a sin but we all have our own levels of atrocity I agree with you and another poster said he did this when he was 10, not 14. I do feel sorry for the victims and feel it a shame he never got counseling. However I think that was many years ago and now he sleeps with Anna so his curiosity in that department is now gone. He was born in 1988, the molestation occurred in 2003 - 14/15 years old. It was reported in 2006 when he was 17/18 years old.
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:07:15 GMT
She made assumptions that I wasn't a minor (I was) when I was abused and then went on saying it was different because I wasn't. I don't care her reasoning. What she claimed was wrong. And I never said names of victims should be released. Not once. So the argument is moot. I said the abuser should be made public. Your perception is your reality. Her assumptions was wrong but for what it's worth I don't think her intentions were to discount your experiences because of your age. Have a great day Then why would she say it is different because I wasn't a minor (which again I was)? Your argument makes no sense.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:08:52 GMT
I just got on here and have not read all 11 pages. I am not surprised at all. The peas had this right years ago. What I find disturbing is TLC had to know, but they went on with the show.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:08:55 GMT
I agree with you and another poster said he did this when he was 10, not 14. I do feel sorry for the victims and feel it a shame he never got counseling. However I think that was many years ago and now he sleeps with Anna so his curiosity in that department is now gone. He was born in 1988, the molestation occurred in 2003 - 14/15 years old. It was reported in 2006 when he was 17/18 years old.
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
And anyone who thinks molesters molest because they're simply "curious" is not in touch with reality.
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Post by annabella on May 22, 2015 15:09:52 GMT
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:12:42 GMT
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. Molesting your sisters is not just curiosity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:13:07 GMT
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. Molestation is NOT simply a result of "curiosity".
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Post by Regina Phalange on May 22, 2015 15:13:10 GMT
Can I just reiterate that this kind of thing is NEVER just "teen curiosity." I don't care how repressed everyone thinks he was, wanting to touch and fondle small children is NEVER just a substitute for not being able to masturbate. And just because one site says it happens at 16 doesn't mean that is the absolute only time it happens. Typical age may be 16, but I'm sure there are variances among offenders.
On another note - I agree with everyone who says that they are totally skeeved out by Jim Bob. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it comes out that he's been abusing his daughters as well. And in my opinion, there HAS to be something wrong with Anna to think that it's okay to marry someone like Josh - and just because he's "sleeping with her" does not mean he isn't still attracted to kids. For all you know, they may only be having sex to procreate, and not for pleasure at all.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on May 22, 2015 15:16:04 GMT
Your perception is your reality. Her assumptions was wrong but for what it's worth I don't think her intentions were to discount your experiences because of your age. Have a great day Then why would she say it is different because I wasn't a minor (which again I was)? Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am not being clear and again this is my interpretation of a conversation I wasn't a participant in. Paraphrasing... Blue rain says: Don't name the victims. Scrappower (a survivor of rape) says: I wanted to scream from the roof tops and even wanted to take out an ad. Blue Rain says: I am also a survivor of rape you deal with it your way I deal with it mine neither is right or wrong but there is difference between naming underage victims and you were not underage. I think Blue Rain is more worried about the shame and humiliation the Duggar girls may feel now that it's coming to light again. For the record I think regardless of age victims should not be named in news articles. I get that police reports have to be accurate and name victims and those are public record. Peas who have quoted Blue Rain seem to believe she meant your rape "is different" because she assumed you were of age but I don't think that's what she meant at all.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 22, 2015 15:16:44 GMT
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. What outlet do you think that 'normal' 14-year-olds have for their 'curiosity'? Do you think that the only reason that every 14-year-old boy doesn't diddle his little sister is because he, what? Can see naked people on the internet? Learns about naked people in school? Touches non-sibling children? What kind of life do you think normal 14-year-olds actually live?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:17:29 GMT
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. Molesting your sisters is not just curiosity. Exactly. Let's change the sentence to read
Him (molesting his sisters) happened when he had no other outlet.
Don't refer to molesting his younger sisters as "curiosity". That's beyond offensive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:18:07 GMT
Then why would she say it is different because I wasn't a minor (which again I was)? Your argument makes no sense. Maybe I am not being clear and again this is my interpretation of a conversation I wasn't a participant in. Paraphrasing... Blue rain says: Don't name the victims. Scrappower (a survivor of rape) says: I wanted to scream from the roof tops and even wanted to take out an ad. Blue Rain says: I am also a survivor of rape you deal with it your way I deal with it mine neither is right or wrong but there is difference between naming underage victims and you were not underage. I think Blue Rain is more worried about the shame and humiliation the Duggar girls may feel now that it's coming to light again. For the record I think regardless of age victims should not be named in news articles. I get that police reports have to be accurate and name victims and those are public record. Peas who have quoted Blue Rain seem to believe she meant your rape "is different" because she assumed you were of age but I don't think that's what she meant at all. Then why would she say it isn't the same. That makes no sense. She said that in the same sentence as her claiming I wasn't a minor. I think you are misreading it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:18:18 GMT
And anyone who thinks molesters molest because they're simply "curious" is not in touch with reality. x1000 I can't believe anyone actually believes that, but clearly... some do.
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Post by jennyap on May 22, 2015 15:23:08 GMT
Maybe I am not being clear and again this is my interpretation of a conversation I wasn't a participant in. Paraphrasing... Blue rain says: Don't name the victims. Scrappower (a survivor of rape) says: I wanted to scream from the roof tops and even wanted to take out an ad. Blue Rain says: I am also a survivor of rape you deal with it your way I deal with it mine neither is right or wrong but there is difference between naming underage victims and you were not underage. I think Blue Rain is more worried about the shame and humiliation the Duggar girls may feel now that it's coming to light again. For the record I think regardless of age victims should not be named in news articles. I get that police reports have to be accurate and name victims and those are public record. Peas who have quoted Blue Rain seem to believe she meant your rape "is different" because she assumed you were of age but I don't think that's what she meant at all. Then why would she say it isn't the same. That makes no sense. She said that in the same sentence as her claiming I wasn't a minor. I think you are misreading it. She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:24:49 GMT
Then why would she say it isn't the same. That makes no sense. She said that in the same sentence as her claiming I wasn't a minor. I think you are misreading it. She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them. But I wasn't an adult. That's where the disconnect was. And I never said anyone's names should be released but the abusers. I'm done with this stupid argument. Let's get back to the topic. Bad enough that I have to defend my actions as an abused minor.
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Post by jennyap on May 22, 2015 15:29:19 GMT
She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them. But I wasn't an adult. That's where the disconnect was. And I never said anyone's names should be released but the abusers. No, that was clearly an error in her assumption (I'll admit from the way you wrote about it I would have guessed the same thing too). But that was still the point she was making, whether it specifically applied to you or not. In a case of family abuse, the list of possible victim names is pretty short, isn't it? Maybe a bit longer in this case than usual, but even so the speculation now is going to be about which of the girls were the victims - so actually those who weren't victims (that we know of) will be subjected to the same dissection of their life, which IMO sucks.
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Post by Regina Phalange on May 22, 2015 15:31:34 GMT
Then why would she say it isn't the same. That makes no sense. She said that in the same sentence as her claiming I wasn't a minor. I think you are misreading it. She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them. This.
Honestly, I think it was just a misunderstanding and can we PLEASE just agree that no one meant any offense and move on? I honestly think that Lil Rain thought Scrappower was an adult at the time and that's how she thought it was different. It all got blown out of proportion before anyone got a chance to explain themselves properly.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on May 22, 2015 15:32:05 GMT
She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them. But I wasn't an adult. That's where the disconnect was. And I never said anyone's names should be released but the abusers. I'm done with this stupid argument. Let's get back to the topic. Bad enough that I have to defend my actions as an abused minor. Sigh. I think you made the choice to defend your actions and take offense where none was intended. She made the wrong assumption but outside of that I don't think her intentions were as bad as everyone thinks.
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Post by Regina Phalange on May 22, 2015 15:32:46 GMT
But I wasn't an adult. That's where the disconnect was. And I never said anyone's names should be released but the abusers. I'm done with this stupid argument. Let's get back to the topic. Bad enough that I have to defend my actions as an abused minor. Sigh. I think you made the choice to defend your actions and take offense where none was intended. She made the wrong assumption but outside of that I don't think her intentions were as bad as everyone thinks. Yep. Now let's everyone HUG IT OUT!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:33:37 GMT
She's saying an adult victim making the choice to forgo their right to privacy is different to a minor having that choice made for them. This.
Honestly, I think it was just a misunderstanding and can we PLEASE just agree that no one meant any offense and move on? I honestly think that Lil Rain thought Scrappower was an adult at the time and that's how she thought it was different. It all got blown out of proportion before anyone got a chance to explain themselves properly.
The thing is not one person claimed the victims names should be released so the argument made no sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 15:33:44 GMT
And there are a whole slew of molesters out there who are happily married.
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. What "outlets" does my non-duggar son have that Josh didn't? My son doesn't have unsupervised access to the internet, just like Josh. He doesn't have the means to buy pornography, just like Josh. My son actually has fewer close relationships with females than Josh does with all those sisters. The curiosity and outlet excuses are gross. He committed a sexually criminal act, several times.
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Olan
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Post by Olan on May 22, 2015 15:36:44 GMT
Oh yes I'm aware of that, but his curiosity came at a time when he had no other outlet. What "outlets" does my non-duggar son have that Josh didn't? My son doesn't have unsupervised access to the internet, just like Josh. He doesn't have the means to buy pornography, just like Josh. My son actually has fewer close relationships with females than Josh does with all those sisters. The curiosity and outlet excuses are gross. He committed a sexually criminal act, several times. There is some theory that explains why siblings and familial relationships don't have a sexual component. I forget the name though. Anyone? Essentially your sexually curiosities aren't played out with your siblings because it's genetically wrong. And the fact that they are prepubescent is another thing.
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Post by anxiousmom on May 22, 2015 15:37:25 GMT
Chiming in as the mother of two boys. Sexual curiosity of normal, very normal. Think about the threads about us finding porn searches on our computers.
But I promise you, again, as the mother of two boys, that curiosity does NOT manifest itself as touching, fondling or otherwise exploring a prepubescent girl. It just isn't. I get that in a repressed environment like the Duggars that the opportunities for exploration are incredibly limiting, but boys begin playing with themselves almost from birth. Masturbation does not begin during puberty.
That a young, undeveloped girl on your lap sexually excites you to the point of wanting to touch her genitalia is abnormal and does not fit under any stretch of the definition of "curious." It just doesn't.
While there is no set standard for sexual development and what is an arousal trigger, there is a basic roadmap. Watching your own children go down that path, you may not see development at the same time in the same way, but you do know when abnormal (in a clinical sense) when it occurs.
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Post by jennyap on May 22, 2015 15:37:42 GMT
This.
Honestly, I think it was just a misunderstanding and can we PLEASE just agree that no one meant any offense and move on? I honestly think that Lil Rain thought Scrappower was an adult at the time and that's how she thought it was different. It all got blown out of proportion before anyone got a chance to explain themselves properly.
The thing is not one person claimed the victims names should be released so the argument made no sense. Again, the victims names *have* all but been released in this case, by default, which was the original point being made. Makes perfect sense to me.
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The Great Carpezio
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Post by The Great Carpezio on May 22, 2015 15:44:56 GMT
Can I just reiterate that this kind of thing is NEVER just "teen curiosity." I don't care how repressed everyone thinks he was, wanting to touch and fondle small children is NEVER just a substitute for not being able to masturbate. And just because one site says it happens at 16 doesn't mean that is the absolute only time it happens. Typical age may be 16, but I'm sure there are variances among offenders. On another note - I agree with everyone who says that they are totally skeeved out by Jim Bob. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it comes out that he's been abusing his daughters as well. And in my opinion, there HAS to be something wrong with Anna to think that it's okay to marry someone like Josh - and just because he's "sleeping with her" does not mean he isn't still attracted to kids. For all you know, they may only be having sex to procreate, and not for pleasure at all. I agree with this. I don't care how repressed your environment, a teen fondling a child or even another teen --without permission-- is wrong in every way. IF he was ten or younger, I could see this as an argument. IF he was 10-12 we could MAYBE have a debate, but at 14, it is deviant no matter how you look at it and how protected he was. I would not be surprised if Jim Bob has abused. I really don't know and I don't think he HAS to have done so for his son to do what he did, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on May 22, 2015 15:48:18 GMT
The thing is not one person claimed the victims names should be released so the argument made no sense. Again, the victims names *have* all but been released in this case, by default, which was the original point being made. Makes perfect sense to me. And this goes back to my second (first?) post on this thread - if the only way to maintain that privacy is to sweep the entire incident under the rug, allowing the perpetrator to have continued access to his victims, or allowing him access to other children without informing those who are charged with their safety, then the cost of that privacy is too high.
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