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Post by snowsilver on May 22, 2015 1:51:22 GMT
I find this topic fascinating especially in how many Christians really seem to feel this way.
I absolutely do not. I feel the God of the OT is the same God of the NT and what He said in the OT, He means in NT times as well.
I do NOT believe the law is not binding on us now. I think the law that was nailed to the cross was Moses law of tabernacle sacrifices, NOT the Ten Commandments. I think the Ten Commandments are as binding on us under the New Covenant as they were under the Old. In fact, pretty much all of them are mandated in various books of the NT.
The OT is full of prophecy that will be fulfilled in the end times. In fact the book of Revelation cannot in any way be understood without a background in the OT. Much of the book of Daniel is key to understanding Revelation.
So--just for interest sake, how many Christian Peas disagree with me and feel the OT no longer applies to us today (and I hope this thread doesn't disintegrate into a battle about abortion or gay rights as so many religious threads seem to--that is not the topic here).
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Post by ntsf on May 22, 2015 2:04:39 GMT
I think the OT and NT are both important...but I also don't read the bible literally in king james english. as Christ said, I don't come to get rid of the Law, but to fulfill the Law. since I am a Presbyterian, we are reformed and always reforming.
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pamela
Shy Member
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Aug 3, 2014 0:29:17 GMT
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Post by pamela on May 22, 2015 2:06:27 GMT
I agree with what you have said, so no argument here. Pam
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Post by JustCallMeMommy on May 22, 2015 2:09:56 GMT
I believe that the Bible has to be taken in the context of the world and conditions at the time it was written, not just as individual verses or chapters interpreted as law for all times and all people. An unclean animal in the Bible, for instance, might have been unclean because of environmental conditions that made it unsafe to eat. Even some NT "rules" were reactions to specific things that were happening at the time.
When you talk about binding, it seems very black and white. Like God keeps a list of right and wrong, and as long as we stay away from those things, we're OK. I would define sin as whatever it is that interferes with your relationship with God. That leaves some grey area - sin for me can be different than sin for you.
When it comes down to it, I am not a Bible literalist, and I believe that the important message of the Bible, in addition to salvation, is one of love. If we are examining our actions for right or wrong, and we stop and ask, "What would be the loving thing to do?", I think we will make the right choice.
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Post by myshelly on May 22, 2015 2:11:22 GMT
I self identify as Christian.
I do not believe in the Old Testament.
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Post by Freefallfast on May 22, 2015 3:12:59 GMT
I am a NT Christian. The 10 commandments are reinterpreted by Jesus. But the old laws became obsolete with the new Covenant. I also think the Bible as we know it is incomplete and was interpreted by man sometimes used to oppress.
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Post by stampbooker on May 22, 2015 3:26:33 GMT
I do not believe that followers of Christ are under the law of the OT.
Yes, the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. However there is a an ongoing revelation.
Christ is the end of the law. Believers under the New Covenant are not under the law.
Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Julie
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 3:38:05 GMT
I find this topic fascinating especially in how many Christians really seem to feel this way. I absolutely do not. I feel the God of the OT is the same God of the NT and what He said in the OT, He means in NT times as well. I do NOT believe the law is not binding on us now. I think the law that was nailed to the cross was Moses law of tabernacle sacrifices, NOT the Ten Commandments. I think the Ten Commandments are as binding on us under the New Covenant as they were under the Old. In fact, pretty much all of them are mandated in various books of the NT. The OT is full of prophecy that will be fulfilled in the end times. In fact the book of Revelation cannot in any way be understood without a background in the OT. Much of the book of Daniel is key to understanding Revelation. So--just for interest sake, how many Christian Peas disagree with me and feel the OT no longer applies to us today (and I hope this thread doesn't disintegrate into a battle about abortion or gay rights as so many religious threads seem to--that is not the topic here). Your title and post seem contradictory to me. The OT consists of books of history, prophecy, psalms. Those have never been "binding" Only the law can bind. So to me you are saying "the OT is no longer binding" in your post. Is the God of the OT and NT the same? Yes.. but! His self revelation is much greater in the NT than what he had revealed of himself in the lives of those who lived during the OT.
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Post by moveablefeast on May 22, 2015 3:53:51 GMT
I think... that there is more to both the Old and New testaments than rules to bind. There is history, there is poetry, there is the Temple law, there is the covenant, there is God teaching a people what it means to have one God and not many... so all of it is relevant and all of it is important, but not all of it is binding in the way that a contract is binding. At one time it was meant to tell people what they must and must not do to be a people visibly set apart for the one God. But I think Jesus freed us from the systematic and made the mark of His people their love and not their duty. I also think we need to know why that matters.
I think the OT has a lot to teach us about the history of God's people. It's puzzling and curious and they did lots of stuff that we don't do now, and we do lots of stuff now that they didn't do then. It is impossible to see what would be binding when the cultural context is so profoundly different. But I don't think that matters anyway. Jesus said the big rules were to love God and love people. That is enough to do. I think it covers pretty much all the bases on its own.
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Post by snowsilver on May 22, 2015 4:17:35 GMT
If you think the 10 commandments were done away with, what do you do with these New Testament verses: For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:10-12). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
And then we have Jesus own words: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5: 17-19
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Post by scrapqueen01 on May 22, 2015 4:55:04 GMT
The Old Testament is important because it is God-breathed. It is useful for teaching. Much of what Jesus, the disciples, Paul spoke about was from the Old Testament because that is all they had at the time. The same moral law that is in the Old is found in the New. It tells our history and why Jesus was needed in the first place. The central message of the Bible is grace through Jesus. In the Old Testament sacrifices were necessary to atone for sins. Sacrifices are not needed today as Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. People love to nit-pick about which rules to follow in the Bible. It is impossible for us to follow all the rules as we are sinners. It is only through grace that we are saved. That is what attending church is for: to meet with Jesus, confess our sins and hear that we are forgiven.
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Post by stampbooker on May 22, 2015 5:21:35 GMT
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it, to accomplish its purpose, to complete it. He did so with his death and nailed the law to the cross. The passage does not say the law will endure forever, it says it will endure until everything is accomplished...and it was accomplished in the death of Christ. The law was a shadow, only a dim preview of the good things to come...not the good things themselves. Christ is the reality. The law was our tutor until Christ came so that we could be made right by faith and now that Christ has come we are no longer under the tutor. (Gal 3:24-25)
It is impossible to keep the whole law, it can not be done. Only Jesus could accomplish it...he accomplished the law, he fulfilled, he was the sacrifice, he nailed the law to the cross and set us free to love.
If you put yourself back under the law, then you have to commit to keeping each and every one and you can not do it. So you make yourself guilty of breaking the whole law. Don't do it. You foolish Galatian, who has put you under a spell? Did you receive the Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian life in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole." Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.
I encourage you to sit down and read through the whole book of Galatians. Then read it again and again.
Julie
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Post by Skypea on May 22, 2015 7:33:03 GMT
I think I agree with you... I do think your title and what you posted seem contrary. Could just be the time. It's late and I might be misunderstanding it...
The old law is over (for Christians). If one loves God and others, they WILL keep the 10 commandments. I think it's Hebrews that says a lot about the old law being over.
I only find the 'kingdom of heaven' in Matthew into chapter 13 (NKJV). At that time Jesus was teaching to the Jews. He wasn't teaching about His death and resurrection (not in a way anyone would understand). He said the law would not pass away until all had been accomplished - that wouldn't happen until His death and resurrection. What He told the Jews then was true - but it would change when He accomplished what He came to do.
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Post by disneypal on May 22, 2015 9:31:46 GMT
Yes, I agree. I do believe that after Jesus came, died and rose again, that our lives were forever changed and we now live under God's grace and Hebrew laws do not apply since we live under grace not law (see Romans 6:14).
I believe the 10 commandments are just as applicable today as they were thousands of years ago, when God first sent them to Moses.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 13:26:25 GMT
Because of Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross, we are no longer under the penalty of the law. The law put into stark relief the inability of man to be holy. It condemned. Jesus set us free from that condemnation. There is now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus according to Romans 8:1.
Does God still have standards of holiness by which He wants us to live? Yes, according to I Peter 1:6. Jesus Himself even took the law a step further. The phrase "Ye have heard it said...but I say unto you" was stated several times in Matthew 5. Instead of merely fulfilling the letter of the law, we are to embrace the spirit of the law, which is to love God and others. We shouldn't try to be holy to please God, because it's a failing proposition. We should be holy because we love Him and want to be like Him.
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Post by tuva42 on May 22, 2015 13:38:46 GMT
Do you eat shrimp? Because the Old Testament clearly states that you shouldn't.
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Post by snowsilver on May 22, 2015 13:52:49 GMT
Actually, I don't eat shrimp. I'm a lifelong vegetarian. I believe the prohibitions against unclean meats were given to help give us healthy bodies, and that didn't change after Christ came.
Do you think there will be slaughterhouses in heaven? Hard to imagine since nothing dies there. I am a vegetarian for two reasons: For health AND because I don't believe you can possibly claim to be "green" while eating meat.
That's all I'm going to say on that though, as that isn't the point of this post. I am really interested in how many Christian Peas don't feel the Old Testament has any part to play in our lives today. I'm really enjoying some of these posts and appreciate those who have taken the time to post their thoughts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 14:08:49 GMT
The two main NT "laws" --> Love God and Love thy Neighbor encompass what was spelled out in the 10 Commandments and much of the OT law. Some OT laws I do believe were for specific cultural reasons that don't exist now to teach the Jewish nation on how to stay clean before God prior to Jesus's death and resurrection on the cross and the grace that we received from that.
I do however still feel that learning the OT and knowing the laws helps us even to this day. It shows us the character of God and a perspective that we wouldn't have in NT times.
That said, I do think there is a proclivity to pick up on laws that we DON'T break (to make ourselves feel better) and to ignore the ones we do break because they are just cultural/not applicable anymore etc. God calls us to be holy. And I do believe there are certain standards in the OT that help us do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 14:52:13 GMT
Do you or have you ever worn polyester or any other fabric blend? Leviticus 19:19 "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."
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Post by stampbooker on May 22, 2015 16:44:23 GMT
Actually, I don't eat shrimp. I'm a lifelong vegetarian. I believe the prohibitions against unclean meats were given to help give us healthy bodies, and that didn't change after Christ came. Do you think there will be slaughterhouses in heaven? Hard to imagine since nothing dies there. I am a vegetarian for two reasons: For health AND because I don't believe you can possibly claim to be "green" while eating meat. That's all I'm going to say on that though, as that isn't the point of this post. I am really interested in how many Christian Peas don't feel the Old Testament has any part to play in our lives today. I'm really enjoying some of these posts and appreciate those who have taken the time to post their thoughts. I don't think anyone is saying that the OT doesn't have any part to play in our lives. The OT is more than just the law. There is a lot to learn from it, history, wisdom, etc. But we are not bound by the law. The thing is if you are placing yourself under the law, then you have to obey them all. If you break one law you are guilty of breaking all of them. That is quite a burden you place yourself under. Julie
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MizIndependent
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Quit your bullpoop.
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Post by MizIndependent on May 22, 2015 16:47:41 GMT
I am really interested in how many Christian Peas don't feel the Old Testament has any part to play in our lives today. I'm really enjoying some of these posts and appreciate those who have taken the time to post their thoughts. As has been pointed out, the 10 Commandments were written specifically to show how we fail at being holy. As Paul taught (Romans 7:4-7): As for the rest of the Old Testament, there are a ton of prophecies (fulfilled by Jesus) and history, also examples how to live and how not to live. The encouragement of God's steadfastness (Psalms) and so much more. So, I do not think the Old Testament is irrelevant to my life today. However, with the advent of Jesus the Messiah, we are no longer bound to the 10 Commandments. Indeed, Jesus himself gave us two new commandments in their place (Matthew 22:37–40): ETA: If you think the 10 commandments were done away with, what do you do with these New Testament verses: For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:10-12). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 And then we have Jesus own words: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5: 17-19 I think there is a common misunderstanding of these verses. It says right there: "I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." And what does abolish mean? And what does fulfill mean?
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on May 22, 2015 16:55:04 GMT
Actually, I don't eat shrimp. I'm a lifelong vegetarian. I believe the prohibitions against unclean meats were given to help give us healthy bodies, and that didn't change after Christ came. Do you think there will be slaughterhouses in heaven? Hard to imagine since nothing dies there. I as . The first part changed with refrigeration ! Do you really think you will eat food in heaven. There are parts of the Old Testament Jewish laws that seem unnecessary.... Did I really commit a sin when I tied my shoes on the Sabbath? Is that butterfly tattooed on my hip a sin? I read the Old Testament for meaning... Some of the laws .....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 17:10:12 GMT
I was raised to believe the OT is no longer binding. Jesus atoned for our sins and that is why. I don't believe there is a right answer, people interpret the Bible the way that makes most sense to them. I no longer believe the OT or NT either is binding.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
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Jun 25, 2014 21:50:33 GMT
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Post by The Great Carpezio on May 22, 2015 17:38:47 GMT
I can't answer your question. I am sorry, but I think many who do believe the OT is no longer binding interpret that in the Bible (reasons stated above) because a. it could be interpreted that way: b. it would be too hard to follow the OT laws without cherry picking
Other than some Ultra Orthodox Jews, I don't think many people follow all of the OT laws...and even THEN, there are many different ways those laws are interpreted.
Which, is why, I just can't understand how anyone can believe there is only one right way to read and view Biblical interpretation.
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Post by greenlegume on May 22, 2015 18:01:12 GMT
Just wondering if you always wear a head-covering, OP
Leviticus 10:6 “Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people.”
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Post by stampbooker on May 22, 2015 18:58:08 GMT
av I can't answer your question. I am sorry, but I think many who do believe the OT is no longer binding interpret that in the Bible (reasons stated above) because a. it could be interpreted that way: b. it would be too hard to follow the OT laws without cherry picking Other than some Ultra Orthodox Jews, I don't think many people follow all of the OT laws...and even THEN, there are many different ways those laws are interpreted. Which, is why, I just can't understand how anyone can believe there is only one right way to read and view Biblical interpretation. I agree that there are some things in scripture that are hard to understand. There are some things that could have multiple interpretations. I think we all know that. However some things are written clearly. The whole letter of Galatians makes it abundantly clear that we are not under the law. It is to hard to follow OT laws. That is the point. That is why we have Jesus to fulfill the law and remove the burden from us. Just because some people choose to twist things doesn't make it a valid interpretation. Julie
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Post by gar on May 22, 2015 19:18:38 GMT
av I can't answer your question. I am sorry, but I think many who do believe the OT is no longer binding interpret that in the Bible (reasons stated above) because a. it could be interpreted that way: b. it would be too hard to follow the OT laws without cherry picking Other than some Ultra Orthodox Jews, I don't think many people follow all of the OT laws...and even THEN, there are many different ways those laws are interpreted. Which, is why, I just can't understand how anyone can believe there is only one right way to read and view Biblical interpretation. I agree that there are some things in scripture that are hard to understand. There are some things that could have multiple interpretations. I think we all know that. However some things are written clearly. The whole letter of Galatians makes it abundantly clear that we are not under the law. It is to hard to follow OT laws. That is the point. That is why we have Jesus to fulfill the law and remove the burden from us. Just because some people choose to twist things doesn't make it a valid interpretation. Julie Some Christians don't seem to want to say that, or seem to not to believe that at all at all. Indeed some will fiercely deny it.
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Post by Skypea on May 22, 2015 19:30:43 GMT
Do you eat shrimp? Because the Old Testament clearly states that you shouldn't. I no longer eat shrimp (or much in the seaworld of food) or pork. Not because it's in the OT. It's just my choice now - knowing what I do about them. I also don't eat tuna and seldom salmon (I'm very careful with that!).
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Post by scrapqueen01 on May 22, 2015 19:31:29 GMT
Let's read that verse in context beginning at verse 1 and going through verse 11:
1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.
3 Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.
4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.
5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.
6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the Lord hath kindled.
7 And ye shall not go out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: for the anointing oil of the Lord is upon you. And they did according to the word of Moses.
8 And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses. I also recommend reading chapter 9 to get an even better understanding of the context.
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Post by greenlegume on May 22, 2015 19:33:23 GMT
The question still applies. I'm aware of the context.
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