mrstodd
Shy Member
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Post by mrstodd on Aug 13, 2015 19:11:24 GMT
I do go to Planned Parenthood (or should I say I used to) for my BC, and I am pro choice.
I DO NOT condone or support what Planned Parenthood is doing. Planned Parenthood manipulates the fetus in the womb purposefully via sonogram, in order to harvest better specimens to sell. That is fucked up.
I'm still pro choice, but I'm finding that stance harder to defend. What Planned Parenthood is doing is grotesque and it is illegal. You can't sell body parts, and make no mistake, they are selling body parts. It costs $20 to send a box full of parts and they are charging $75-$200 for each "specimen" contained in the box. That's like the scalper selling you the concert ticket for face value but charging you $200 for the envelope that contains the ticket.
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mrstodd
Shy Member
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Post by mrstodd on Aug 13, 2015 19:20:06 GMT
I think that a lot of these videos are meant to obvuscate and make PP look bad by anti-abortion zealots. I do think that's what's going on here. Planned Parenthood has no one to blame but themselves for making PP look bad. No one made them do what they do, and if they weren't doing it then there would be nothing for the Anti Abortion zealots to film. Not only is PP making themselves look bad they have swung the door wide open for people against abortion to use this to make access to abortion harder for women. If (general) you are pro choice you should be mad as hell at PP for risking safe abortions for women. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 19:38:27 GMT
I don't have time to research but would love to know statistics on how many abortions have occurred since they became legal and also how many kids have been killed by guns during the same time period along with how many criminals have been put to death. Well, I know me and I can't stop there, because I truly want to know.
All through Google, without much research with most coming from Wikipedia: In 2013, the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade, the abortion statistic was: 55,772,015 abortions and that was 3 years ago (January) or more than 1 million per year. Luckily the rate is decreasing, but still very high per year. In 2014, I found a statistic that 28000 kids were killed due to guns over an 11 year time span or approximately 2500 per year. In 2014, 35 death row inmates were put to death and 3000 are on death row. I found another statistic that 1413 death row inmates have been put to death since 1976.
How can we compare millions of abortions to other types of deaths that occur in such less frequent amounts? I don't think it is a good comparison at all.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 20:09:33 GMT
I'm out--I am totally pro-life and listening to people justify killing an innocent child is not something I need to listen to. Have a nice day I guess that means you're anti gun then, right? Thousands of children have been killed by guns over the years. Also, no one is justifying "killing an innocent child." It's about women having control over their own bodies. seriously, that isn't helping your argument at all. It just shows you have an agenda against guns. Firat, using "sensitive" language, what else are they supposed to call it? There is tissue. It is used in research. I think the timing if the videos only helps to inflame the already anti-choice people. For me, by this point, it is "oh, they released another video. Okay, ho humm." They are actually desensitizing those they would like to reach. I've been to Pp both for birth control when I was a teen (my mom never took me to an ob/gyn) and with a friend who had an abortion. That were great with me, and they were kind with my friend. In no way did they push abortion and checked multiple times to make sure she was sure. Bottom line ia, abortion is legal. It needs to remain legal. If Pp is breaking the law, they need to be prosecuted. If they are not breaking the law, then, it is what it is. |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 20:10:17 GMT
I do go to Planned Parenthood (or should I say I used to) for my BC, and I am pro choice. I DO NOT condone or support what Planned Parenthood is doing. Planned Parenthood manipulates the fetus in the womb purposefully via sonogram, in order to harvest better specimens to sell. That is fucked up. I'm still pro choice, but I'm finding that stance harder to defend. What Planned Parenthood is doing is grotesque and it is illegal. You can't sell body parts, and make no mistake, they are selling body parts. It costs $20 to send a box full of parts and they are charging $75-$200 for each "specimen" contained in the box. That's like the scalper selling you the concert ticket for face value but charging you $200 for the envelope that contains the ticket. I don't understand how they manipulate it in the womb via sonogram? |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 20:12:18 GMT
I don't have time to research but would love to know statistics on how many abortions have occurred since they became legal and also how many kids have been killed by guns during the same time period along with how many criminals have been put to death. Well, I know me and I can't stop there, because I truly want to know. All through Google, without much research with most coming from Wikipedia: In 2013, the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade, the abortion statistic was: 55,772,015 abortions and that was 3 years ago (January) or more than 1 million per year. Luckily the rate is decreasing, but still very high per year. In 2014, I found a statistic that 28000 kids were killed due to guns over an 11 year time span or approximately 2500 per year. In 2014, 35 death row inmates were put to death and 3000 are on death row. I found another statistic that 1413 death row inmates have been put to death since 1976. How can we compare millions of abortions to other types of deaths that occur in such less frequent amounts? I don't think it is a good comparison at all. you can't compare. One is legal, the other is not. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. |
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 20:16:20 GMT
I'm out--I am totally pro-life and listening to people justify killing an innocent child is not something I need to listen to. Have a nice day I guess that means you're anti gun then, right? Thousands of children have been killed by guns over the years. Also, no one is justifying "killing an innocent child." It's about women having control over their own bodies. A child is killed with every abortion. Women have control over not just their bodies, but that of innocent children. Or up until the era of Roe v Wade when we started calling them fetuses so that our conscious could be clear. |
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 20:19:27 GMT
I don't have time to research but would love to know statistics on how many abortions have occurred since they became legal and also how many kids have been killed by guns during the same time period along with how many criminals have been put to death. Well, I know me and I can't stop there, because I truly want to know. All through Google, without much research with most coming from Wikipedia: In 2013, the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade, the abortion statistic was: 55,772,015 abortions and that was 3 years ago (January) or more than 1 million per year. Luckily the rate is decreasing, but still very high per year. In 2014, I found a statistic that 28000 kids were killed due to guns over an 11 year time span or approximately 2500 per year. In 2014, 35 death row inmates were put to death and 3000 are on death row. I found another statistic that 1413 death row inmates have been put to death since 1976. How can we compare millions of abortions to other types of deaths that occur in such less frequent amounts? I don't think it is a good comparison at all. you can't compare. One is legal, the other is not. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Carrying out the death penalty is legal, but still doesn't stop people from thinking it is immoral and wrong. |
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Post by foolana on Aug 13, 2015 20:20:00 GMT
I guess that means you're anti gun then, right? Thousands of children have been killed by guns over the years. Also, no one is justifying "killing an innocent child." It's about women having control over their own bodies. A child is killed with every abortion. Women have control over not just their bodies, but that of innocent children. Or up until the era of Roe v Wade when we started calling them fetuses so that our conscious could be clear. That is your opinion and one I do not share. My body is mine, even when pregnant. No one else has the right to tell me what to do. |
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 6:23:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 20:20:00 GMT
I don't have time to research but would love to know statistics on how many abortions have occurred since they became legal and also how many kids have been killed by guns during the same time period along with how many criminals have been put to death. Well, I know me and I can't stop there, because I truly want to know. All through Google, without much research with most coming from Wikipedia: In 2013, the 40th anniversary of Roe vs Wade, the abortion statistic was: 55,772,015 abortions and that was 3 years ago (January) or more than 1 million per year. Luckily the rate is decreasing, but still very high per year. In 2014, I found a statistic that 28000 kids were killed due to guns over an 11 year time span or approximately 2500 per year. In 2014, 35 death row inmates were put to death and 3000 are on death row. I found another statistic that 1413 death row inmates have been put to death since 1976. How can we compare millions of abortions to other types of deaths that occur in such less frequent amounts? I don't think it is a good comparison at all. you can't compare. One is legal, the other is not. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
But it's an argument that certain pro-choice groups like to use against those who are pro-life. I agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with each other. I do wish that this argument could stand alone without gun control and the death penalty. But if some bring them into the converstaion, gun ownership and the death penalty are legal in some/all states too. But what happens with guns in accidents (involuntary manslaughter) or murders is not. In this case, I would make the same comparison. Abortion is legal, but how they are being performed (and possibly manipulated) and what they are doing with the fetuses afterward might not be.
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 20:24:28 GMT
A child is killed with every abortion. Women have control over not just their bodies, but that of innocent children. Or up until the era of Roe v Wade when we started calling them fetuses so that our conscious could be clear. That is your opinion and one I do not share. My body is mine, even when pregnant. No one else has the right to tell me what to do. You misread then what I wrote. I never said any different. Your body is yours to do as you wish, but there's little denying that our terminology and language has changed in regards to babies and pregnancy in order to make it more palatable what is actually taking place. Since the age of man, they have been called babies. When they are wanted they are called babies. We only use the medical terminology of fetus predominantly since Roe v Wade simply so people can try to avoid the guilt over killing an innocent child. I would much rather devote resources to birth control than to abortions. |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 20:24:36 GMT
you can't compare. One is legal, the other is not. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Carrying out the death penalty is legal, but still doesn't stop people from thinking it is immoral and wrong. you are right, but the post I quoted wasn't an immoral and wrong issues, it talked of comparing gun deaths to abortion. I'm guess that if it was legal to shoot people and there were no criminal repercussions, there would be more gun deaths. |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 20:26:47 GMT
you can't compare. One is legal, the other is not. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
But it's an argument that certain pro-choice groups like to use against those who are pro-life. I agree that it has absolutely nothing to do with each other. I do wish that this argument could stand alone without gun control and the death penalty. But if some bring them into the converstaion, gun ownership and the death penalty are legal in some/all states too. But what happens with guns in accidents (involuntary manslaughter) or murders is not. In this case, I would make the same comparison. Abortion is legal, but how they are being performed (and possibly manipulated) and what they are doing with the fetuses afterward might not be.
no, foolana brings them up. I am pro-choice and believe in gun ownership rights. I am all for prosecution if there al illegal actuons being done by pp. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 20:57:16 GMT
You can't really complain that it only looks bad because the videos are edited, when they're all available in unedited form.
I won't even address the absurd claim that someone made that they know they aren't doing anything illegal because they've just been there recently.
Regardless of what side of the abortion debate you're on, the videos make it clear that there needs to be an investigation.
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Post by jonda1974 on Aug 13, 2015 20:57:27 GMT
Carrying out the death penalty is legal, but still doesn't stop people from thinking it is immoral and wrong. you are right, but the post I quoted wasn't an immoral and wrong issues, it talked of comparing gun deaths to abortion. I'm guess that if it was legal to shoot people and there were no criminal repercussions, there would be more gun deaths. My apologies then. I misread. I was thinking you were talking about both gun issues and death penalty issues in comparison to abortion issues. I agree with you about criminal repercussions. |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 21:00:26 GMT
you are right, but the post I quoted wasn't an immoral and wrong issues, it talked of comparing gun deaths to abortion. I'm guess that if it was legal to shoot people and there were no criminal repercussions, there would be more gun deaths. My apologies then. I misread. I was thinking you were talking about both gun issues and death penalty issues in comparison to abortion issues. I agree with you about criminal repercussions. not a problem. Another poster did bring the others in. |
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Post by foolana on Aug 13, 2015 21:00:22 GMT
That is your opinion and one I do not share. My body is mine, even when pregnant. No one else has the right to tell me what to do. You misread then what I wrote. I never said any different. Your body is yours to do as you wish, but there's little denying that our terminology and language has changed in regards to babies and pregnancy in order to make it more palatable what is actually taking place. Since the age of man, they have been called babies. When they are wanted they are called babies. We only use the medical terminology of fetus predominantly since Roe v Wade simply so people can try to avoid the guilt over killing an innocent child. I would much rather devote resources to birth control than to abortions. Whaaaaat? We only use medical terminology because we don't want to feel guilty about abortion? That is truly ridiculous. Holy crap. |
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Aug 13, 2015 21:18:35 GMT
I have said this on other threads, I feel the timing of these video's was made to coincide with the Pope's visit to the US. The visit will get a lot of media coverage and I fear the last video will be so horrific (late term abortion) that the Pope will be expected to address it. This is the Year of the Family in the Catholic Church. You know, those at Planned Parenthood who talked to these people making the video's by now know they have been duped. They also know what they said, what they saw and what is to come. There doesn't seem to be any advance damage control so I think they will get progressively shocking and potentially head down the path of illegality. I seriously hope not, I am pro choice but very very much against late term abortions and it would make me so sick to know funds have been going to a place that would do that. Just thinking about that makes me sick, after the Gosnell case some of those images are burned in my memory forever.  I agree with you that most Americans are pro-choice but there is a limit to which they are willing to go when you talk about late term abortions. I am surprised that you are aware of the Kermit Gosnell case - there was so little media coverage - appalling. He operated, in plain sight, The Women's Medical Society of Philadelphia, not in a back alley, it is in the University City section in Philadelphia. What we learned from this case is that there was no oversight from the State. He was a serial killer. He and his wife would perform late term abortions and sever the spines of babies with scissors. He got caught because he was also selling narcotics and when they did a raid they found the house of horrors - babies in freezers, body parts in jars. No, not a Planned Parenthood clinic but how many others like this are out there? Who performs the oversight in these clinics? Link to Gosnell Grand Jury Report - GRAPHIC
There is an independent film being made about the case 3801 Lancaster |
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Post by gryroagain on Aug 13, 2015 21:25:26 GMT
Tissue and body part parts is big business. I wish I wasn't on my crappy iPad 1, because I can't link with it, but funeral homes, hospitals, etc have run programs (and in some cases what I would call criminal rings) funneling bone, skin, veins, etc to medical research labs, plastics surgeons, and the like. It is sometimes totally illegal (like a funeral home selling bones they removed from bodies), sometimes legal but done unethically (I believe certain PP clinics may fall in this category), sometimes perfectly legal and ethical but still unsavory to think about or discuss.
If PP is doing this at some clinics and it is found to be unethical, that should stop. But defunding them? Do we shutter hospitals (by far the largest source of violations, most of which are unintended but wrong nonetheless) for this? No, we fine them, clean the program up, move on. This is about denying access to abortion, not concern over possible ethical violations with donated tissue. And yes, it is tissue.
Comparing this (or even the most egregious cases of funeral homes removing and selling parts without any consent) to Mengele is bizarre and offensive to the memory of those killed (actual people!) by him.
Abortion is legal. Medical clinics and hospitals selling tissue gained from surgeries, donations, etc is legal. If ethical guidelines aren't being followed, that should stop. But just talking about the tissue and selling it for research is not illegal, and defunding the entirety of PP makes zero sense when access to womens health services is the one thing that actually reduces abortions.
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Post by gale w on Aug 13, 2015 21:28:04 GMT
Has anyone commenting here ever actually been to Planned Parenthood? I have been and very recently. They have not done anything that is against the law and the people who worked there were kind, loving and dedicated to womens' health care My daughter was going to have an abortion in July but had a miscarriage days before. There was nobody bullying her or forcing her to make her decision. They advised her of the option of adoption. They made her wait a week to come in for the procedure just in case she changed her mind. There were many women in the waiting room who were pregnant and there for pre-natal care. I'm so sick of hearing how horrible PP is and the lies that are perpetrated by people here. While you're up in arms over PP, please also be up in arms over innocent lives being taken by legal guns. There's no difference, right? Don't get me started on the death penalty that right-wingers love so much, either. Yes and I was disgusted with the entire experience. I went for a pregnancy test (this was before the good over the counter tests we have now) before I was even given the test they wanted me to schedule my abortion so if it was positive I would not have to wait. And they are not gentle about it, they were really giving me the hard sell even after I said I probably would not go that route. And more people are killed by abortion than guns. And there you go generalizing again, this right winger is very against the death penalty I had a similar experience (even though people here told me I was lying about it) with my 2nd pregnancy. I went there to get a test on the advice of my OB because he said they would be able to get me in more quickly. I was married and had one child (who was with me at the time). FTR I paid for the test. |
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 13, 2015 21:32:45 GMT
I seriously hope not, I am pro choice but very very much against late term abortions and it would make me so sick to know funds have been going to a place that would do that. Just thinking about that makes me sick, after the Gosnell case some of those images are burned in my memory forever. I agree with you that most Americans are pro-choice but there is a limit to which they are willing to go when you talk about late term abortions. I am surprised that you are aware of the Kermit Gosnell case - there was so little media coverage - appalling. He operated, in plain sight, The Women's Medical Society of Philadelphia, not in a back alley, it is in the University City section in Philadelphia. What we learned from this case is that there was no oversight from the State. He was a serial killer. He and his wife would perform late term abortions and sever the spines of babies with scissors. He got caught because he was also selling narcotics and when they did a raid they found the house of horrors - babies in freezers, body parts in jars. Not it wasn't a Planned Parenthood clinic but how many others like this are out there. Who performs the oversight in these clinics? I can't imagine there are too many others like that and I have not idea how his staff worked there. The women who went there had to have been desparate because what little I know about it, that place was filthy and just plain gross. I don't know if he was the cheapest or if they were trying to get around the law that stopped abortion at a certain week. I would not be opposed to more inspections of facilities, but I also don't want the rules so stringent that all the clinics have to close. I would hope that the pp centers are clean, sanitary, and run legally. The ass mentioned was convicted of killing the babies born alive, as he should have been. |
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Post by kelbel827 on Aug 14, 2015 1:04:35 GMT
I am pro-abortion. Would I ever have one? Maybe. Until I'm in a situation, I can't say what I would do. Is it my job to tell others what to do? Nope.
I believe these videos are purposely released now because of the upcoming election.
I believe in medical research.
I believe in research using human tissue.
I believe that this is just tissue.
There are so many people who are posting because they are just trying to make their point that they believe that abortion is wrong. Well, if you don't believe in it, don't have one. It's none of your business to tell others what to do. These videos will not prevent me from having an abortion if I felt I needed to have one.
ETA no medical research is free. I work in the field. It's expensive.
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 1:46:47 GMT
I am pro-abortion. Would I ever have one? Maybe. Until I'm in a situation, I can't say what I would do. Is it my job to tell others what to do? Nope. I believe these videos are purposely released now because of the upcoming election. I believe in medical research. I believe in research using human tissue. I believe that this is just tissue. There are so many people who are posting because they are just trying to make their point that they believe that abortion is wrong. Well, if you don't believe in it, don't have one. It's none of your business to tell others what to do. These videos will not prevent me from having an abortion if I felt I needed to have one. ETA no medical research is free. I work in the field. It's expensive. Brilliant! I agree completely. Thank you for saying this so well. |
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 1:50:38 GMT
Yes and I was disgusted with the entire experience. I went for a pregnancy test (this was before the good over the counter tests we have now) before I was even given the test they wanted me to schedule my abortion so if it was positive I would not have to wait. And they are not gentle about it, they were really giving me the hard sell even after I said I probably would not go that route. And more people are killed by abortion than guns. And there you go generalizing again, this right winger is very against the death penalty I had a similar experience (even though people here told me I was lying about it) with my 2nd pregnancy. I went there to get a test on the advice of my OB because he said they would be able to get me in more quickly. I was married and had one child (who was with me at the time). FTR I paid for the test. I cannot fathom why a private OB/GYN would refer you to PP for a pregnancy test. All you needed to do was go to the lab and provide blood and/or urine so the test could be done. You wouldn't need to see a doctor until the results were in. You don't explain what it is that PP did wrong. Are you anti-abortion? |
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 1:54:40 GMT
As usual, @lynlam takes a dump on the board and never returns. It's so typical of someone who isn't interested in a conversation or debate at all. It stinks of someone who works for an anti-abortion organization. They're not paid to discuss, just to spread lies. They think if you say something enough times it becomes the truth.
Thank goodness there's too many intelligent people here to fall for that garbage.
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 16:56:19 GMT
This whole "tissue research" rebuttal is ridiculous (to me), I'm sorry to say. They are not selling "tissue" to these people. They are selling human organs, intact and for a premium. The selling of human organs is very illegal, so they are blatantly breaking the law and people want to defend them by saying tissue research helps the rest of us who weren't aborted and allowed to live out our lives. Talk about effed up. It is illegal. Period. There are no embryonic or fetal organs that would be of use in any transplant. They aren't fully developed and are of no use to anyone. PP, in that situation, are NOT blatantly breaking the law. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 17:13:56 GMT
I am pro-abortion. Would I ever have one? Maybe. Until I'm in a situation, I can't say what I would do. Is it my job to tell others what to do? Nope. I believe these videos are purposely released now because of the upcoming election. I believe in medical research. I believe in research using human tissue. I believe that this is just tissue. There are so many people who are posting because they are just trying to make their point that they believe that abortion is wrong. Well, if you don't believe in it, don't have one. It's none of your business to tell others what to do. These videos will not prevent me from having an abortion if I felt I needed to have one. ETA no medical research is free. I work in the field. It's expensive. I too am pro choice. (although against late term abortions unless the pregnancy poses great risk of death to the mother)
I believe in medical research.
I believe in research using human tissue.
So not everyone who has concerns about what PP is doing is against women or against abortion. Not everyone is trying to take abortion away as a legal choice.
I said it a few videos ago...and I'll say it again. PP needs to be investigated thoroughly in a non-partisan manner to insure that things are happening are in full disclosure with the patients, and with the laws of this great nation.
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 17:58:10 GMT
There are no embryonic or fetal organs that would be of use in any transplant. They aren't fully developed and are of no use to anyone. PP, in that situation, are NOT blatantly breaking the law. What does transplant use have to do with any of this? How odd to bring that in to this conversation. I'm sorry, but we disagree on what is illegal. The laws do not have an asterisk to state that there's an exception in the case of babies that have not yet been born. I'm not surprised to see this rebuttal, however. I'm sure you also think we should look away from illegal immigrants who break the law. Because the sale of organs for transplant is illegal. Tissue for research is not included in this law.
National Organ Transplant Act of 1984
How can we disagree about what is and isn't law? That doesn't make any sense. You can DISLIKE a law but that doesn't make it illegal.
Here is the law regarding fetal tissue donation:
Fetal Tissue Law - Federal
Perhaps you should read these before you speak. Your agreement/disagreement with laws is opinion, not fact. Also, you brought up fetal organs, not me.
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Post by foolana on Aug 14, 2015 18:00:37 GMT
There are no embryonic or fetal organs that would be of use in any transplant. They aren't fully developed and are of no use to anyone. PP, in that situation, are NOT blatantly breaking the law. What does transplant use have to do with any of this? How odd to bring that in to this conversation. I'm sorry, but we disagree on what is illegal. The laws do not have an asterisk to state that there's an exception in the case of babies that have not yet been born. I'm not surprised to see this rebuttal, however. I'm sure you also think we should look away from illegal immigrants who break the law.You know what they say about ASSumptions, right?
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Post by lucyg on Aug 14, 2015 22:13:10 GMT
This pro-abortion-rights liberal has no problem with an unbiased investigation into Planned Parenthood's practices. I don't know why you people seem to think we're against it. I've never seen a single person make that argument. I don't believe it would come up with anything to shame PP as a whole (I can't say there aren't deficient practices/workers sprinkled around individual agencies), but if I'm wrong, so be it. Fix the problems and carry on. If there's any criminal behavior, charge the people involved. I'll hold my breath. But as others have said above, that's not at all the real issue here, is it? There are no embryonic or fetal organs that would be of use in any transplant. They aren't fully developed and are of no use to anyone. PP, in that situation, are NOT blatantly breaking the law. What does transplant use have to do with any of this? How odd to bring that in to this conversation. I'm sorry, but we disagree on what is illegal. The laws do not have an asterisk to state that there's an exception in the case of babies that have not yet been born. I'm not surprised to see this rebuttal, however. I'm sure you also think we should look away from illegal immigrants who break the law. What the actual f*ck?? You're not thinking one word of that makes any sense, are you?  |
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