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Post by peajays on Aug 17, 2015 2:12:37 GMT
DS 17 auditioned in the spring to be in our cities High School production put on at our Grand Theatre. The whole cast is hs students, and all of the behind the scenes are mentored by the professionals (ie costumes,musicians, sets, sound etc) it's a great experience for all the kids!
My my son was one of 2 musicians selected to be in the pit orchestra along with about 10 other professional musicians. He's been to one rehearsal already, and had 3 scheduled for this week. DS got an email today from the head of music that until further notice, DS is not allowed to rehearse with them because the Professional Music Union thinks that because there aren't any other saxophone players in the band, that he's taking away a job from a professional, so they won't allow him to play. He's taken it really well, and the guy is trying to work out an arrangement to keep him in the band, but for now it's all up in the air.
reason 1007 of why I dislike unions!
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UPDATE:
I apologize for for the union bash, it's just there has been so much going on here locally with our City Workers, and just in time for school our School teacher unions are talking work to rule, then this issue with the music. I'm not sure what was arranged, but DS got an email today saying that they've worked out some kind of arrangement/agreement and he's allowed to participate.
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marimoose
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Post by marimoose on Aug 17, 2015 2:17:15 GMT
That is the most ridiculous thing ever. Good for your son to be taking it fine. It makes me scratch my head trying to figure out how some people's minds work. Ok, so there are no professional saxophone players but if they don't let your son play, in a position he earned, doesn't that mean there won't be any saxophonists at all. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope they get it figured out quickly.
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Post by nyxish on Aug 17, 2015 5:14:15 GMT
That seems more like "stupid" that it does to have anything to do with unions per say - but i'd be frustrated as all heck too.  Stupid. |
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Aug 17, 2015 8:57:00 GMT
Oh, my heart hurts for your ds.
That is so dumb on the part of the union. I hope it is resolved soon and someone with half a brain can make it right.
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Post by grate on Aug 17, 2015 10:54:02 GMT
oh no! I hope things work out for him to play. Seems like something that should have been noted and worked out BEFORE he was invited to play and dedicated his time.
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purplebee
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Post by purplebee on Aug 17, 2015 10:57:57 GMT
Yeah, as grate said, they should have already known about this "rule." Bummer, hope your saxophonist still gets to play.
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Post by julieinsweden on Aug 17, 2015 11:50:53 GMT
What does it take to be a professional? Could it be a way around the rule if DS is paid?
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 17, 2015 12:28:11 GMT
This is very typical for musicians' unions. I too am surprised that an orchestra of professional musicians didn't know this was coming.
Sucks, though. |
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MerryMom
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Post by MerryMom on Aug 17, 2015 12:41:36 GMT
Sorry, but I think your ire is misplaced, the group putting on the musical or play or production should have disclosed this upfront and made that clear. In addition, if the purpose is for the students to be mentored, then how can your son be mentored if there isn't another saxophone player?
You begrudge a musician being able to earn a living?
Let's pretend that you work in retail. If you have a student in an Occupational Work Experience program and he interns at your job for two months. He works a cash register in lieu of you working the cash register for his internship. Therefore you aren't on the schedule to work (therefore you aren't paid) when the intern is "working" the cash register (for work experience and he isn't paid). You wouldn't have an issue with that? Your paycheck is less those weeks in order to give a high school student "experience".
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 17, 2015 13:34:45 GMT
Sorry, but I think your ire is misplaced, the group putting on the musical or play or production should have disclosed this upfront and made that clear. In addition, if the purpose is for the students to be mentored, then how can your son be mentored if there isn't another saxophone player? You begrudge a musician being able to earn a living? Let's pretend that you work in retail. If you have a student in an Occupational Work Experience program and he interns at your job for two months. He works a cash register in lieu of you working the cash register for his internship. Therefore you aren't on the schedule to work (therefore you aren't paid) when the intern is "working" the cash register (for work experience and he isn't paid). You wouldn't have an issue with that? Your paycheck is less those weeks in order to give a high school student "experience". I think, in this case, the comparison would be to someone who is an unemployed retail worker not having the opportunity to apply for a job because they have an unpaid intern.
I'm assuming that this orchestra was put together solely for the purpose of this show. That would mean that no specific person is being pushed aside in order to have an unpaid saxophone player in the orchestra. In fact, without the intern, they might do away with having a saxophone altogether.
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tincin
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Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
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Post by tincin on Aug 17, 2015 14:01:59 GMT
DS 17 auditioned in the spring to be in our cities High School production put on at our Grand Theatre. The whole cast is hs students, and all of the behind the scenes are mentored by the professionals (ie costumes,musicians, sets, sound etc) it's a great experience for all the kids! My my son was one of 2 musicians selected to be in the pit orchestra along with about 10 other professional musicians. He's been to one rehearsal already, and had 3 scheduled for this week. DS got an email today from the head of music that until further notice, DS is not allowed to rehearse with them because the Professional Music Union thinks that because there aren't any other saxophone players in the band, that he's taking away a job from a professional, so they won't allow him to play. He's taken it really well, and the guy is trying to work out an arrangement to keep him in the band, but for now it's all up in the air. reason 1007 of why I dislike unions! He is taking a job from someone. A job someone depends on to put food on their table. Would you like it if your boss gave you the next week off without pay because some darling teen wanted the professional experience? I know I sure the hell wouldn't. It sucks for your son but they should have a professional play along side him. |
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msliz
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Post by msliz on Aug 17, 2015 14:18:15 GMT
DS 17 auditioned in the spring to be in our cities High School production put on at our Grand Theatre. The whole cast is hs students, and all of the behind the scenes are mentored by the professionals My my son was one of 2 musicians selected to be in the pit orchestra along with about 10 other professional musicians.
Who's paying for this thing? Are they paying 10 professional musicians or not? Who's coming up with money for a professional sax player all of a sudden? No, I don't agree that OP's DS is taking a job away from a professional. That professional job was never there to begin with. They're only paying for ten.
I think this is a case where the union workers will simply not be allowed to play along with non-union workers. For no good reason at all. The choice will be to pay for an 11th musician or do without a saxophone.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 17, 2015 14:20:38 GMT
DS 17 auditioned in the spring to be in our cities High School production put on at our Grand Theatre. The whole cast is hs students, and all of the behind the scenes are mentored by the professionals (ie costumes,musicians, sets, sound etc) it's a great experience for all the kids! My my son was one of 2 musicians selected to be in the pit orchestra along with about 10 other professional musicians. He's been to one rehearsal already, and had 3 scheduled for this week. DS got an email today from the head of music that until further notice, DS is not allowed to rehearse with them because the Professional Music Union thinks that because there aren't any other saxophone players in the band, that he's taking away a job from a professional, so they won't allow him to play. He's taken it really well, and the guy is trying to work out an arrangement to keep him in the band, but for now it's all up in the air. reason 1007 of why I dislike unions! He is taking a job from someone. A job someone depends on to put food on their table. Would you like it if your boss gave you the next week off without pay because some darling teen wanted the professional experience? I know I sure the hell wouldn't. It sucks for your son but they should have a professional play along side him. Again, it doesn't typically work like that. It's not like they have a prefab orchestra that they hire en masse for a performance. They would be hiring musicians individually. So there is nobody forced to take the week off. |
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Aug 17, 2015 14:31:30 GMT
DS 17 auditioned in the spring to be in our cities High School production put on at our Grand Theatre. The whole cast is hs students, and all of the behind the scenes are mentored by the professionals (ie costumes,musicians, sets, sound etc) it's a great experience for all the kids! My my son was one of 2 musicians selected to be in the pit orchestra along with about 10 other professional musicians. He's been to one rehearsal already, and had 3 scheduled for this week. DS got an email today from the head of music that until further notice, DS is not allowed to rehearse with them because the Professional Music Union thinks that because there aren't any other saxophone players in the band, that he's taking away a job from a professional, so they won't allow him to play. He's taken it really well, and the guy is trying to work out an arrangement to keep him in the band, but for now it's all up in the air. reason 1007 of why I dislike unions! He is taking a job from someone. A job someone depends on to put food on their table. Would you like it if your boss gave you the next week off without pay because some darling teen wanted the professional experience? I know I sure the hell wouldn't. It sucks for your son but they should have a professional play along side him. But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. The OP says the cast and crew are ALL high schools students being mentored. Why aren't the actors union or crew union sending the same letters? It's the EXACT same situation. And before you say he's not being mentored by a saxophonist, he would be mentored by a professional musician. Does it HAVE to be the same type of instrument? |
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Post by mommaho on Aug 17, 2015 14:36:30 GMT
I'm sorry this happened to your son. The conductor/manager or 'guy in charge' should have known there might be problems up front but they (management) try to work around things they don't like.
Not all unions are bad, just a few individuals that make it look wrong for the entire group!
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 17, 2015 14:41:06 GMT
He is taking a job from someone. A job someone depends on to put food on their table. Would you like it if your boss gave you the next week off without pay because some darling teen wanted the professional experience? I know I sure the hell wouldn't. It sucks for your son but they should have a professional play along side him. But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. The OP says the cast and crew are ALL high schools students being mentored. Why aren't the actors union or crew union sending the same letters? It's the EXACT same situation. And before you say he's not being mentored by a saxophonist, he would be mentored by a professional musician. Does it HAVE to be the same type of instrument? She said that those behind the scenes are being mentored. I do know that when we do performances in venues with professional crews, we don't even move as much as a music stand without having someone crap all over us.
I would imagine that the crew union aren't sending the same letters due to the mentoring relationship. Could the professionals handle the behind the scenes work without the HS students - ie, would they have to hire professional crewmembers to replace the work done by the students? I would wager they could and with greater efficiency. 
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tincin
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Post by tincin on Aug 17, 2015 14:49:11 GMT
He is taking a job from someone. A job someone depends on to put food on their table. Would you like it if your boss gave you the next week off without pay because some darling teen wanted the professional experience? I know I sure the hell wouldn't. It sucks for your son but they should have a professional play along side him. But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. The OP says the cast and crew are ALL high schools students being mentored. Why aren't the actors union or crew union sending the same letters? It's the EXACT same situation. And before you say he's not being mentored by a saxophonist, he would be mentored by a professional musician. Does it HAVE to be the same type of instrument? It is still a paying job that someone who is qualified would earn money to do. Professional musicians are just like the rest of us, they need money to live on. |
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 17, 2015 14:58:55 GMT
But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. The OP says the cast and crew are ALL high schools students being mentored. Why aren't the actors union or crew union sending the same letters? It's the EXACT same situation. And before you say he's not being mentored by a saxophonist, he would be mentored by a professional musician. Does it HAVE to be the same type of instrument? It is still a paying job that someone who is qualified would earn money to do. Professional musicians are just like the rest of us, they need money to live on. Yes. And likewise, every time my DH shovels our elderly neighbours' driveway, the person they would hire to do it otherwise is out some money. And every time I do my brother's taxes, his accountant loses out.
I'm not saying that musician's unions don't serve a purpose (ask any unpaid singer who has sat through a 5-hr rehearsal) but I tend to draw the line when it comes to mentoring relationships. I mean, these kids should be encouraged in any way possible to become future union members.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 0:35:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 15:09:47 GMT
The musician's union should have known about the mentoring ahead of time. Professionals mentor students all the time, and it's a great thing for them to do. I agree that the group was hiring 10 musicians, so there isn't another job. It's not an upaid professional job at all, because they aren't going to hire 11 musicians. If they don't allow the son into the pit orchestra, there just won't be a saxophone.
This should have been dealt with before any auditions. All the other unions are on board, just the musicians. Sounds like a mess up by management.
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msliz
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Post by msliz on Aug 17, 2015 15:17:44 GMT
But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. It is still a paying job that someone who is qualified would earn money to do. Professional musicians are just like the rest of us, they need money to live on.
It's a paying job that doesn't exist. They've already hired their 10 musicians.
It's like when you hire a caterer. You have $2000, and that will get you 10 dishes (or 10 musicians). You also want a birthday cake (or sax), but the caterer cannot provide one within your budget. You offer to provide your own cake (high school sax). In some venues, like your backyard, that's fine. In others, where the caterer has a binding contract to provide all the food, it's not allowed.
If this turns out to be that second kind of venue, the choices are to pay extra to create an 11th job or do without. And if it turns out that the high school student is allowed to play, that's great. No one owes anything to the professional sax player just because he is available.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Aug 17, 2015 15:35:39 GMT
I hope this gets worked out! Something of this magnitude was likely arranged in advance. I am betting that it was but the finer detail of a student playing the saxophone with no professional union member playing the sax is what caught the ire of the union rep. Does DS play other instruments? I wonder if they can have him play something else where there is already a pro. And to answer someone else's question, even if the young man was paid, it would not matter as he is not in the union. I do not know what it takes to join the union as a musician (thinking it is AGMA) but my guess is being hired for a one time gig is not it. |
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georgiapea
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Post by georgiapea on Aug 17, 2015 15:40:23 GMT
I understand the problem. If there is only 1 saxophone part it should go to a union member. However, if no professional saxophonist is found, your DS should be allowed to play. I would try to negotiate that he keep practicing, knowing that he might not be able to perform with the group.
Unions serve a needed purpose, to protect the members from unfair practices by management. In this case it's a bit iffy, since it's supposed to be an opportunity for youth to perform with professionals. I hope it can be worked out.
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JustTricia
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Post by JustTricia on Aug 17, 2015 16:36:26 GMT
But it's not the case of a boss giving away someone else's hours. The job didn't exist before this. No one was fired, no one's hours were taken away. Yes, there is a job NOW, but one didn't exist before. The OP says the cast and crew are ALL high schools students being mentored. Why aren't the actors union or crew union sending the same letters? It's the EXACT same situation. And before you say he's not being mentored by a saxophonist, he would be mentored by a professional musician. Does it HAVE to be the same type of instrument? She said that those behind the scenes are being mentored. I do know that when we do performances in venues with professional crews, we don't even move as much as a music stand without having someone crap all over us.
I would imagine that the crew union aren't sending the same letters due to the mentoring relationship. Could the professionals handle the behind the scenes work without the HS students - ie, would they have to hire professional crewmembers to replace the work done by the students? I would wager they could and with greater efficiency.
You're correct; it's not the actors, only the behind the scenes. |
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Post by Meri-Lyn on Aug 17, 2015 16:56:29 GMT
This is very typical for musicians' unions. I too am surprised that an orchestra of professional musicians didn't know this was coming.
Sucks, though. yes, and most professional theatres are required to go by union rules, so they really should have known ahead of time. Stinks! |
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perumbula
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Post by perumbula on Aug 17, 2015 16:58:51 GMT
I agree, OP, that it stinks for your son. it sounds like the whole production was put together to allow HS students stage experience. So having the union get all up in arms because a HIGH SCHOOL Student is participating in a HIGH SCHOOL production is absolutely nuts. Labor unions wouldn't have such a bad rap if they didn't pull crap like this.
The sax player is not "stealing" a job from a union member. It's obvious that there were ten union jobs and openings for qualified students to be mentored. Hopefully the union rep can get over themselves and let the kids have the positions they were supposed to have in the first place.
While in HS, My dd played mallet percussion in a college production and it was a wonderful experience for her to play alongside more experienced musicians. She learned a great deal. I hope your son gets the same chance.
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Stupid. 
