Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 23:29:37 GMT
Fired for fartingInteresting. I wonder if his case will hold up in court. I guess I can see a company being concerned about clients experiencing it, but then again, it's a medical condition. Sounds like a stinky situation no matter which way you look at it. 
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Nicole in TX
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Post by Nicole in TX on Oct 3, 2015 23:41:13 GMT
Wow! That is an interesting case.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Oct 3, 2015 23:45:13 GMT
interesting indeed.
I had no idea that obesity was protected as a disability.
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georgiapea
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Post by georgiapea on Oct 3, 2015 23:48:16 GMT
Well., as someone who worked with such a person it's a terrible situation. 50 people gasping "OMG" and running for the exits as the foul cloud swept through the cube farm. All production stops except for the guy who caused the exodus. Management really does have to make the best decision for the majority of employees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 23:50:44 GMT
I'd like to know if he was first approached with concerns about his condition, and if he tried to change his diet or use medication to reduce the flatulence problem.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Oct 3, 2015 23:52:10 GMT
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Post by hop2 on Oct 4, 2015 0:02:01 GMT
So he gets fired for actually trying to improve his health?? Wow |
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trollie
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Post by trollie on Oct 4, 2015 0:32:31 GMT
That's tough. As a manager, I think I would have "down sized" the department....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 1:18:53 GMT
Yeah I guess they woud have to give him his own office?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 1:22:13 GMT
If he had sudden/uncontrollable diarrhea as the article states then it was more than gas. I would think inability to control your fecal matter would create a biohazard in a work place. Considering he works in a food production work place........
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 1:29:17 GMT
He is pursuing it through the EEOC which is the correct course for his ADA complaint and they will investigate and then either have to give him the right to sue although sometimes the employer will settle out of court OR sue on his behalf (which is rare). I am not sure where his wife has standing to sue honestly. She was not terminated but quit her job. She claims pain/suffering/etc, but not sure she can support that just from being told her husband's issues were affecting the employer.
Weight is generally not protected under federal law and I think he is going to have a hard battle showing that it is a disability under the legal definition but obesity can be covered under ADA. I can see where it can cause significant disruption to the workplace and business and the employer just has to reasonably accommodate, and allowing to work from home as much as possible could be reasonable. But as the controller, I assume he had to be there in person at times for meetings, etc. Attending meetings or being in the office for a small amount of time might have been an essential function of the job. It wouldn't be a reasonable accommodation to let him be there with diarrhea/major gas especially in a food production facility, even with his own personal office. And if he couldnt' be there without issues, I am not so sure he has a case that is win-able. But who knows with the courts these days!?!
It wasn't discrimination due to weight or they wouldn't have hired him at 420 lbs in the first place. |
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Oct 4, 2015 1:31:42 GMT
the link I put in my post shows that the EEOC has precedent (not sure if that's the right word?) for the 'disability' definition being applied much more loosely than it has been in the past...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 1:38:37 GMT
Last part of that legal article: "Now it appears that obesity may be covered under the protections of the ADA. The question remains whether the ADA will start to include other illnesses that were long excluded from the protections of the ADA, such as: pedophilia, exhibitionism, voyeurism, gender identity disorders not resulting from physical impairments, or other sexual behavior disorders; compulsive gambling, kleptomania, or pyromania; and psychoactive substance use disorders resulting from current illegal use of drugs. 42 U.S.C. §12211."  Read more: www.law.com/sites/michaelkraemer/2014/11/11/is-obesity-considered-a-disability-under-the-ada/#ixzz3nYhjBggF |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 2:12:32 GMT
the link I put in my post shows that the EEOC has precedent (not sure if that's the right word?) for the 'disability' definition being applied much more loosely than it has been in the past...
Yeah, there is definitely precedent, but there also has to be reasonable accommodation and it has to not cause undue hardship for the employer and as an HR person, I am not sure that I could think of a reasonable accommodation that works other than working from home in this case. But even as a person who works from home 95% of the time, there are still critical times for me to be in the office. And there is a cost to having an employee who telecommutes (software, hardware, office setup/supplies, etc). (I also have to wonder what OSHA and the FDA would think of allowing the employee to be on premises with such consistent issues)
And yes, the EEOC is known for being very liberal on their definitions and try to push the boundaries. Theirs are just opinions of how the law should be interpreted and it is to their advantage to push the boundaries and generally support the employee over the employer. They go into the claim assuming the employer is guilty and the employer has to prove they are not. They can sometimes get employers to give in and settle if the employer doesn't want to prove it. But the EEOC doesn't always win all the cases they take to court. They want to though.
I've "defended" two cases for my employer (one racial and one gender) and have found that if the employer has good documentation and good representation and can show they have tried to work through any issues that were brought to their attention, that does help. But I in both cases have had to demand the EEOC make a decision in a reasonable time and in both cases they have found there is no basis for the claim. But they sure have wasted a whole lot of my time.
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ModChick
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Post by ModChick on Oct 4, 2015 2:25:24 GMT
Didn't read the article but omg my 10 year old ds farts so much, everywhere, without hesitation. He'll be the one fired for farting as well one day. :/ lol.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Oct 4, 2015 2:44:30 GMT
Fired for fartingInteresting. I wonder if his case will hold up in court. I guess I can see a company being concerned about clients experiencing it, but then again, it's a medical condition. Sounds like a stinky situation no matter which way you look at it. Holy shit! My ex-husband finally lost his job over farting at work. I knew it! (He was a serial farter...it didn't stink, just noise). |
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Oct 4, 2015 10:44:47 GMT
I'm surprised to hear that he was able to work with the diarrhoea issues.
I'm also surprised to hear that obesity is considered a disability in law. However, presumably he is no longer obese, so that one won't fly.
It's a tricky one, though, because other employees and visitors to the site have rights too, and presumably not being bombarded with foul odours should be among them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 11:15:40 GMT
No, it really isn't.
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Post by Jockscrap on Oct 4, 2015 12:54:42 GMT
I'm also surprised to hear that obesity is considered a disability in law. It is in the UK now in certain circumstances. EU ruling |
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Oct 4, 2015 13:46:31 GMT
So, what does reasonable accommodations mean? Does that change depending upon the size of the employer? Number of employees, $$$ it makes?
With the way psychology is going, every bad habit, choice, etc. is becoming a "disability." How far does the employer have to go and how much does he have to tolerate if he wants to have employees?
Each time I got pregnant I knew full well I was risking my job by CHOOSING to have a child. With my first child I did lose my job. It was part-time and a portion of it required me to be in an unsafe condition while working. With my second child I expected to go out on disability when I announced my pregnancy but I had two awesome coworkers that switched positions with me so I could stay at work the whole time. Why would it be employers responsibility to get less work out of an employee, have only part of the job being done or have someone else work harder because of my choice/unfortunate circumstance?
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styxgirl
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Post by styxgirl on Oct 4, 2015 13:53:30 GMT
I didn't read the article, but when I was in college I had a job that required weeks of training. It was very detailed, deadline sensitive, checklist driven, awesome job. So I had to be trained and then work tandem with this guy until I could get the tasks down. It was an entry level job to my dream job.
Well, as you can guess, the guy that trained me had very bad gas. It was nasty and he couldn't control it. AND, because I wanted the job, I had to sit right there by his side so I could learn it. If ever anyone should have been fired for nasty farts, it should have been that guy! UGH!
I got really fast at sneaking my nose into my shirt to mask that stench. YUCK! I've never been so motivated to learn a job so I could work alone! LOL
That was a really good job and even though I didn't end up with that dream job, it lead me to the dream job I currently have. :-)
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Post by moveablefeast on Oct 4, 2015 14:53:49 GMT
Makes me wonder what people with Crohn's or other bowel issues do at work. There are tons of reasonable accommodations that can be made for those kinds of conditions - why would it be so hard to make reasonable accommodations for this one? Not the obesity per se, but the GI effects of the surgery. Moving offices to be closer to the restroom, frequent bathroom breaks, installation of an air purifier in the area, and so on.
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peabay
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Post by peabay on Oct 4, 2015 16:39:45 GMT
Where does one's rights end and others begin? Yes, he has a disability, but what about my right to work in an environment of basic hygiene?
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Oct 4, 2015 16:46:04 GMT
Makes me wonder what people with Crohn's or other bowel issues do at work. There are tons of reasonable accommodations that can be made for those kinds of conditions - why would it be so hard to make reasonable accommodations for this one? Not the obesity per se, but the GI effects of the surgery. Moving offices to be closer to the restroom, frequent bathroom breaks, installation of an air purifier in the area, and so on. So let's say that you own a LSS. You have an employee that has to work in the store by herself for up to four hours a day. How does a small business owner compensate for someone that has to take a restroom break every 30 minutes? Is it reasonable to say that the LSS owner hires a second person to babysit the store while the first runs to the bathroom? Is it reasonable to expect her to spend the money on an air purifier that can cleanse the stench in the entire store? I work in a school. I teach science. If I needed closer access to the bathroom would it be reasonable to make the school re-engineer the entire floor so a bathroom is moved closer to me? Or should my students suffer because I am moved to a non-science classroom where there are no lab benches, sinks, air and gas? At some point we have to say "damn, that sucks for you. It really does." and write a lovely letter of recommendation if the employee looks for a job better suited for him/her. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 17:04:54 GMT
ADA does have an employer size minimum of 15 or more employees. So very small businesses like a LSS would generally be exempt. But small businesses like ours that has more than 15, but only 3-4 on property at a time, yes, it can cause issues.
The problem with reasonable accommodation and undue hardship is that it is very case and detail specific. And the employee is the one responsible for starting the discussion process, not the employer. Even then, not every employer has another office/classroom close to a bathroom or an employee to clean up after the employee with issues (especially if diarehhea was involved). I could see where a teacher especially could not take frequent unscheduled bathroom breaks. It would be easier for an office worker.
And I have to wonder how often it happened and how much productivity was decreased. An employer doesn't have to put up with bad job performance or change the minimum essential job functions to accommodate.
The RA process should be interactive and the conclusion needs to work for BOTH sides not just for the employee. And usually employers will be VERY VERY careful to CYA when terminating someone who has an ADA claim.
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Post by moveablefeast on Oct 4, 2015 17:22:33 GMT
Makes me wonder what people with Crohn's or other bowel issues do at work. There are tons of reasonable accommodations that can be made for those kinds of conditions - why would it be so hard to make reasonable accommodations for this one? Not the obesity per se, but the GI effects of the surgery. Moving offices to be closer to the restroom, frequent bathroom breaks, installation of an air purifier in the area, and so on. So let's say that you own a LSS. You have an employee that has to work in the store by herself for up to four hours a day. How does a small business owner compensate for someone that has to take a restroom break every 30 minutes? Is it reasonable to say that the LSS owner hires a second person to babysit the store while the first runs to the bathroom? Is it reasonable to expect her to spend the money on an air purifier that can cleanse the stench in the entire store? I work in a school. I teach science. If I needed closer access to the bathroom would it be reasonable to make the school re-engineer the entire floor so a bathroom is moved closer to me? Or should my students suffer because I am moved to a non-science classroom where there are no lab benches, sinks, air and gas? At some point we have to say "damn, that sucks for you. It really does." and write a lovely letter of recommendation if the employee looks for a job better suited for him/her. I work in a school too (a an administrator), and in a previous life managed a small retail store, and have had a handful of situations with employees who needed simple accommodations. I've switched a teacher to another classroom to accommodate her inability to climb stairs, and I've utilized a floater to accommodate a break for a teacher who had hypoglycemia and needed a meal break, and I've scheduled employees such that they are never alone (for example, I had a 77 year old employee who I never scheduled alone but always scheduled as a second employee on busy days because she couldn't lift but she could help customers and cashier). An air purifier can be purchased for less than $200 and benefits the whole office in the instance that someone has an unexpected rush to the restroom. I believe that employers should do as much as possible to accommodate employees' needs, within reason. Your example of re-engineering the entire wing of a building is well past reasonable accommodation and lends no argument of value. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2015 17:35:47 GMT
Makes me wonder what people with Crohn's or other bowel issues do at work. There are tons of reasonable accommodations that can be made for those kinds of conditions - why would it be so hard to make reasonable accommodations for this one? Not the obesity per se, but the GI effects of the surgery. Moving offices to be closer to the restroom, frequent bathroom breaks, installation of an air purifier in the area, and so on. So let's say that you own a LSS. You have an employee that has to work in the store by herself for up to four hours a day. How does a small business owner compensate for someone that has to take a restroom break every 30 minutes? Is it reasonable to say that the LSS owner hires a second person to babysit the store while the first runs to the bathroom? Is it reasonable to expect her to spend the money on an air purifier that can cleanse the stench in the entire store? I work in a school. I teach science. If I needed closer access to the bathroom would it be reasonable to make the school re-engineer the entire floor so a bathroom is moved closer to me? Or should my students suffer because I am moved to a non-science classroom where there are no lab benches, sinks, air and gas? At some point we have to say "damn, that sucks for you. It really does." and write a lovely letter of recommendation if the employee looks for a job better suited for him/her. ADA doesn't apply to businesses of that size, only to companies with 15 or more employees. |
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Oct 4, 2015 17:42:31 GMT
So let's say that you own a LSS. You have an employee that has to work in the store by herself for up to four hours a day. How does a small business owner compensate for someone that has to take a restroom break every 30 minutes? Is it reasonable to say that the LSS owner hires a second person to babysit the store while the first runs to the bathroom? Is it reasonable to expect her to spend the money on an air purifier that can cleanse the stench in the entire store? I work in a school. I teach science. If I needed closer access to the bathroom would it be reasonable to make the school re-engineer the entire floor so a bathroom is moved closer to me? Or should my students suffer because I am moved to a non-science classroom where there are no lab benches, sinks, air and gas? At some point we have to say "damn, that sucks for you. It really does." and write a lovely letter of recommendation if the employee looks for a job better suited for him/her. I work in a school too (a an administrator), and in a previous life managed a small retail store, and have had a handful of situations with employees who needed simple accommodations. I've switched a teacher to another classroom to accommodate her inability to climb stairs, and I've utilized a floater to accommodate a break for a teacher who had hypoglycemia and needed a meal break, and I've scheduled employees such that they are never alone (for example, I had a 77 year old employee who I never scheduled alone but always scheduled as a second employee on busy days because she couldn't lift but she could help customers and cashier). An air purifier can be purchased for less than $200 and benefits the whole office in the instance that someone has an unexpected rush to the restroom. I believe that employers should do as much as possible to accommodate employees' needs, within reason. Your example of re-engineering the entire wing of a building is well past reasonable accommodation and lends no argument of value. Then your experience of moving a teacher to another room has no value in this argument. As I've already stated that moving my classroom would mean my students would not have access to labs if a move was made. |
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Post by moveablefeast on Oct 4, 2015 17:47:34 GMT
I work in a school too (a an administrator), and in a previous life managed a small retail store, and have had a handful of situations with employees who needed simple accommodations. I've switched a teacher to another classroom to accommodate her inability to climb stairs, and I've utilized a floater to accommodate a break for a teacher who had hypoglycemia and needed a meal break, and I've scheduled employees such that they are never alone (for example, I had a 77 year old employee who I never scheduled alone but always scheduled as a second employee on busy days because she couldn't lift but she could help customers and cashier). An air purifier can be purchased for less than $200 and benefits the whole office in the instance that someone has an unexpected rush to the restroom. I believe that employers should do as much as possible to accommodate employees' needs, within reason. Your example of re-engineering the entire wing of a building is well past reasonable accommodation and lends no argument of value. Then your experience of moving a teacher to another room has no value in this argument. As I've already stated that moving my classroom would mean my students would not have access to labs if a move was made. In that case, other reasonable accommodations should be considered, such as utilizing an IA or floater to provide periodic breaks for a teacher, or reassigning that teacher to another role. Moving a teacher's classroom is a reasonable first course of action to consider - a curriculum being tied to a specific classroom is a reason to consider a secondary course of action, not a reason to be inflexible in one's thinking. |
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kwi
Shy Member
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Post by kwi on Oct 4, 2015 17:58:16 GMT
When I clicked on that I thought "I wonder if it's someone that had a gastric bypass"?
Because I live with someone that did and the smell is like nothing on earth. It's impossible to describe just why a post-bypass fart is so offensive, but let's just say I have some sympathy for the employer.
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Time to get off the internet!
