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Post by gar on Dec 3, 2015 8:58:25 GMT
I see that his earlier Manslaughter verdict has been overturned! He now has to await a new sentence. ScrapsontheRocks - how will people feel about this on the whole, do you think?
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 9:03:38 GMT
Public opinion here used to be fifty-fifty, IMO the shenanigans he pulled and the general sense of entitlement portrayed by his family have made it seventy-five against. Of more importance than this silly little man, the confusion in our law caused by the trial judge has been cleared up.
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Post by gar on Dec 3, 2015 9:06:00 GMT
Interesting to get your perspective, thanks. I wonder if he was expecting that result?
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 9:06:51 GMT
Technical point: he is not out on bail; correctional supervision is generally NOT available for convicted murderers. Possible for the prosecution to move for a lower court order to jail him pending sentencing, let the defence at least apply for bail. Hopping off my soapbox now ETA: I have now had an opportunity to read the judgement given earlier today. The conviction (culp h) AND sentence were set aside so some commentators are saying the next step is an arrest, not an approach to the court to haggle over bail.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 9:10:03 GMT
Interesting to get your perspective, thanks. I wonder if he was expecting that result? If he objectively listened to the 5 Appeal Judges, he must have known. On the other hand, he rode his luck and privilege and succeeded so often he may have still hoped. IMO His next move is to approach our Constitutional Court to argue his human rights were disregarded, glare of the media meant he did not get a fair trial
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Post by uksue on Dec 3, 2015 9:31:16 GMT
I found the trial judge so confusing. After everything she said I couldn't believe he didn't get Murder. Reeva's family have been so dignified- I hope this helps them a little.
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Post by gar on Dec 3, 2015 9:33:44 GMT
Yes, I would assume he'd appeal in some way. I agree, he probably didn't expect this....expected that somehow things would go in his favour. Fascinating.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 9:39:43 GMT
I found the trial judge so confusing. After everything she said I couldn't believe he didn't get Murder. Reeva's family have been so dignified- I hope this helps them a little. I stuck my neck out (heartily endorsed her) when the J in question was allocated the case. She is a sharp cookie, tough as nails. I was beyond gobsmacked at the circularity of her reasoning; the charitable way of looking at it, with hindsight, is that she was over-cautious and or overawed by the media circus.
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wellway
Prolific Pea
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Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Dec 3, 2015 10:20:39 GMT
I find it interesting that the org trial judge will be the one handing out the new sentence. Is this unusual? Given that the Supreme Court has said she missed the mark with the conviction, why would she be "trusted" to get the sentencing right? Just curious. No idea if this is the norm.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 10:33:37 GMT
I find it interesting that the org trial judge will be the one handing out the new sentence. Is this unusual? Given that the Supreme Court has said she missed the mark with the conviction, why would she be "trusted" to get the sentencing right? Just curious. No idea if this is the norm. It is convention. She is now bound by the "tariff" (we don't have the same word as you lot in the UK) and, absent mitigating circumstances yada yada she must just apply it.
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anniebygaslight
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Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Dec 3, 2015 12:53:51 GMT
I couldn't believe the verdict last time round. Seems like the right verdict this time.
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BarbaraUK
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Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
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Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on Dec 3, 2015 13:09:20 GMT
We were discussing some of these points earlier and now your answers have clarified things, thank you ScrapsontheRocks. It does seem more like a just verdict this time around.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Dec 3, 2015 13:27:32 GMT
I was confused when I woke up this morning and heard this headline. I didn't even realise that there was an appeal happening, let alone a possible new sentence coming down. I don't really know what to think about the whole thing, to be honest. Just rather confused.
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gloryjoy
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Jun 26, 2014 12:35:32 GMT
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Post by gloryjoy on Dec 3, 2015 13:59:56 GMT
I was confused when I woke up this morning and heard this headline. I didn't even realise that there was an appeal happening, let alone a possible new sentence coming down. I don't really know what to think about the whole thing, to be honest. Just rather confused. Me too.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:05:59 GMT
grinningcat and gloryjoy, how can I help? This is my legal system and my profession (though I never practiced Criminal Law) but I couldn't summarize the whole sorry saga. Any specific(ish) questions and I will do my best.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Dec 3, 2015 14:15:45 GMT
grinningcat and gloryjoy , how can I help? This is my legal system and my profession (though I never practiced Criminal Law) but I couldn't summarize the whole sorry saga. Any specific(ish) questions and I will do my best. I'm not sure I have questions, the whole case is murky for me. I see both sides of the case. I can see how he could think it was an intruder and I can see how it could be domestic violence. The case itself and then the random appeal is just... weird... to me.
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Post by whopea on Dec 3, 2015 14:15:33 GMT
I was confused when I woke up this morning and heard this headline. I didn't even realise that there was an appeal happening, let alone a possible new sentence coming down. I don't really know what to think about the whole thing, to be honest. Just rather confused. Me too. To this American, it sounds like double jeopardy.
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gloryjoy
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Jun 26, 2014 12:35:32 GMT
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Post by gloryjoy on Dec 3, 2015 14:16:01 GMT
Forgive me for sounding naive, I thought once you were tried and convicted of a crime, you could not be tried again. I do realize though that he was tried for manslaughter the first time around and not murder.
And who appealed? The courts, her family?
I'm sorry, the first time around I paid a lot of attention to the story and watched several shows on it. Then just recently I had heard he was due to be released.
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Post by uksue on Dec 3, 2015 14:19:10 GMT
But he wasn't tried again- the original verdict was appealed and the panel overturned and applied the correct verdict, it so it's not double jeopardy at all. Don't forget their system is totally different, with no jury.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:29:32 GMT
grinningcat and gloryjoy , how can I help? This is my legal system and my profession (though I never practiced Criminal Law) but I couldn't summarize the whole sorry saga. Any specific(ish) questions and I will do my best. I'm not sure I have questions, the whole case is murky for me. I see both sides of the case. I can see how he could think it was an intruder and I can see how it could be domestic violence. The case itself and then the random appeal is just... weird... to me. Weird, no arguments. Plenty of that. I have to dispute "random" though: we have a hierarchical system. Lower courts (the magistrates' courts) are bound by high court decisions. The Masipa judgement was a mess and left questions of law wide open: a family shooter in another case has already tried to use the Pistorius case to get off. Those who say the prosecution appealed due to their bruised egos, wish to persecute Oscar P etc were way off.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:31:25 GMT
But he wasn't tried again- the original verdict was appealed and the panel overturned and applied the correct verdict, it so it's not double jeopardy at all. Don't forget their system is totally different, with no jury. Thank you! And no matter how fallible our system is, I personally am glad we don't have a jury system.
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valleyview
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Jun 27, 2014 18:41:26 GMT
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Post by valleyview on Dec 3, 2015 14:32:08 GMT
grinningcat and gloryjoy, how can I help? This is my legal system and my profession (though I never practiced Criminal Law) but I couldn't summarize the whole sorry saga. Any specific(ish) questions and I will do my best. Is your judicial system more similar to Dutch than British? I did not think of the comparison before, but anyone familiar with the Natalee Holloway case 10 years ago might remember how different Dutch procedures were. I hope the judge can stand up to all of this scrutiny again. Can she recuse herself, or is she obligated to follow through on assigned cases?
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:34:20 GMT
Forgive me for sounding naive, I thought once you were tried and convicted of a crime, you could not be tried again. I do realize though that he was tried for manslaughter the first time around and not murder. And who appealed? The courts, her family? I'm sorry, the first time around I paid a lot of attention to the story and watched several shows on it. Then just recently I had heard he was due to be released. The state prosecutors appealed- it was vitally necessary to clarify a messy bit of precedent setting by the original Judge. Amongst other things. apologies @gar, This was your thread
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:39:05 GMT
grinningcat and gloryjoy , how can I help? This is my legal system and my profession (though I never practiced Criminal Law) but I couldn't summarize the whole sorry saga. Any specific(ish) questions and I will do my best. Is your judicial system more similar to Dutch than British? I did not think of the comparison before, but anyone familiar with the Natalee Holloway case 10 years ago might remember how different Dutch procedures were. I hope the judge can stand up to all of this scrutiny again. Can she recuse herself, or is she obligated to follow through on assigned cases? Apologies, I am totally unfamiliar with modern Dutch Law. Our criminal system is grounded in Ancient Roman Dutch law but codified in Legislation so the Act of Parliament overrides, older decisions and practices may be used in argument where a gap in the law exists. Off to google the case you mentioned. ETA: apologies, I did not answer your Q on the judge. If judge M has a good reason not to follow through, it will be handled by another judge in her division. This is not encouraged, though, as it is time consuming and very costly for a new judge to go through YEARS of official court records. If it helps, the Appeal Court ruling this morning was not critical of her character or record in any way- they recognized pressure, complexity and so on and were quite kind. I would not have been kind at all.
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valleyview
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Post by valleyview on Dec 3, 2015 14:45:18 GMT
Natalee Holloway case was an American student who disappeared in Aruba. Their courts are Dutch, and many Americans were confused by the judicial system and power of the judge. We also felt that one family held sway in the courts, and that may have led to freedom for a murderer.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 14:48:21 GMT
Natalee Holloway case was an American student who disappeared in Aruba. Their courts are Dutch, and many Americans were confused by the judicial system and power of the judge. We also felt that one family held sway in the courts, and that may have led to freedom for a murderer. Thank you. I see your point. The family of Oscar P may possibly be seen in a similar way. Obscenely wealthy and very connected.
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valleyview
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 27, 2014 18:41:26 GMT
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Post by valleyview on Dec 3, 2015 14:53:20 GMT
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Post by whopea on Dec 3, 2015 14:59:32 GMT
But he wasn't tried again- the original verdict was appealed and the panel overturned and applied the correct verdict, it so it's not double jeopardy at all. Don't forget their system is totally different, with no jury. Thank you! And no matter how fallible our system is, I personally am glad we don't have a jury system. Caveat: I am not a lawyer. In the US, if the original verdict is appealed, a higher court can overturn the ruling. However, it is remanded back to the trial court to be retried if they find the judge made an incorrect ruling or a juror was compromised, for example. A higher court can not review the case and convict on a higher charge or impose a harsher sentence. In the US, the defense has the right to decide between a jury trial (or not) so not all cases are decided by a jury.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on Dec 3, 2015 15:04:21 GMT
Thank you! And no matter how fallible our system is, I personally am glad we don't have a jury system. Caveat: I am not a lawyer. In the US, if the original verdict is appealed, a higher court can overturn the ruling. However, it is remanded back to the trial court to be retried if they find the judge made an incorrect ruling or a juror was compromised, for example. A higher court can not review the case and convict on a higher charge or impose a harsher sentence. In the US, the defense has the right to decide between a jury trial (or not) so not all cases are decided by a jury. Interesting! So in a way the systems are a direct opposite of each other as regards powers. The Appeal Court theoretically could have ordered a retrial, but not a single role player thought this was either practical, desirable or likely to improve matters. Phew.
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Post by gar on Dec 3, 2015 15:08:45 GMT
Forgive me for sounding naive, I thought once you were tried and convicted of a crime, you could not be tried again. I do realize though that he was tried for manslaughter the first time around and not murder. And who appealed? The courts, her family? I'm sorry, the first time around I paid a lot of attention to the story and watched several shows on it. Then just recently I had heard he was due to be released. The state prosecutors appealed- it was vitally necessary to clarify a messy bit of precedent setting by the original Judge. Amongst other things. apologies @gar, This was your thread You carry on! I'm learning loads!
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