AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 25, 2014 3:26:31 GMT
The reason why women like me don't want to be labeled a feminist is not because we don't support equality for women. It's because the feminist movement supports things that we don't agree with and is sometimes very militant. We don't want to be affiliated with that. Every movement has militants. African Americans who decried tactics within the Black Panther Party didn't subsequently un-identify (word??) with the civil rights movement. (Tangent: I doubt anybody has ever felt "less black" or "less gay" by associating themselves with those specific civil rights movements. Why did women let men - and yes, other women - convince them that support for feminism/equal rights would be tantamount to being "less feminine"? It's a weird reverse thingy that fascinates me.) Sorry - back to you, Jodster. I'm guessing you are sincerely troubled by the pro-choice stance of many feminists. Even though I believe abortion should be legal, it always bothered me that the majority of feminist activists/writers viewed a pro-life stance as antithetical to feminism. We can be any stripe of feminist we want. There are no rules for membership. As others have said here, the same applies to identifying yourself as Christian, Muslim, Jew, Conservative, Liberal. More and more, I'm convinced that fundamentalism of all types - basically, dictated orthodoxy - is the root of many of the world's problems. Okay, climbing sheepishly off my soapbox and slinking away. This topic "gets my Irish up."
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Deleted
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May 19, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 3:28:08 GMT
The reason why women like me don't want to be labeled a feminist is not because we don't support equality for women. It's because the feminist movement supports things that we don't agree with and is sometimes very militant. We don't want to be affiliated with that. Every movement has militants. African Americans who decried tactics within the Black Panther Party didn't subsequently un-identify (word??) with the civil rights movement. (Tangent: I doubt anybody has ever felt "less black" or "less gay" by associating themselves with those specific civil rights movements. Why did women let men - and yes, other women - convince them that support for feminism/equal rights would be tantamount to being "less feminine"? It's a weird reverse thingy that fascinates me.) Sorry - back to you, Jodster. I'm guessing you are sincerely troubled by the pro-choice stance of many feminists. Even though I believe abortion should be legal, it always bothered me that the majority of feminist activists/writers viewed a pro-life stance as antithetical to feminism. We can be any stripe of feminist we want. There are no rules for membership. As others have said here, the same applies to identifying yourself as Christian, Muslim, Jew, Conservative, Liberal. More and more, I'm convinced that fundamentalism of all types - basically, dictated orthodoxy - is the root of many of the world's problems. Okay, climbing sheepishly off my soapbox and slinking away. This topic "gets my Irish up." Exactly....I am a 100% pro-life feminist. There are no rules and I am far from being militant.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 25, 2014 3:37:06 GMT
As a school teacher, I see our boys suffering because they are expected to behave like girls in the classroom. It is especially bad when the teacher just does not get that boys and girls learn and behave differently. Boys enjoy coming to my class because I get them. Drop out rates for boys are higher for girls because schools are designed for students who can sit still and be quiet. I fear they are going to increase even more because of our need to "teach to the test". There are many other examples that I could go into, but I won't. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I am glad things have improved for women. I just feel that in many ways it has come at a cost to the men in our society. I'm right with you on the plight of boys in our schools - and the limitations that society places on men and "masculinity," but I don't blame that on feminism. Many feminists writers and researchers also agree with your concerns. On a related note, for several years, Women's Studies academic departments have been trending toward re-naming themselves Gender Studies.
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oaksong
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Location: LA Suburbia
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Jun 27, 2014 6:24:29 GMT
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Post by oaksong on Jul 25, 2014 3:39:42 GMT
Most definitely feminist! Even in the most progressive countries of the world, there are misogynists who work tirelessly to undermine the progress women have made. There are political trends in our own country that are truly alarming. The treatment of women in many other areas of the world is horrific. How can anyone say they are not a feminist, when girls have acid thrown in their faces or are shot as they walk to school? Sharia Law, female circumcision, forced arranged marriage, the sex slave trade - if you are opposed to those things, you are a feminist, and you should not be ashamed to say so. We should never take our hard-won freedoms for granted. There are many who would have no qualms about taking it away.
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Post by 2peaornot2pea on Jul 25, 2014 3:55:28 GMT
Yes, I consder myself a feminist and think people who consider it to be a bad thing, need some history lessons.
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ReneeH20
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Posts: 452
Jun 28, 2014 16:00:48 GMT
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Post by ReneeH20 on Jul 25, 2014 4:11:13 GMT
Most definitely feminist! Even in the most progressive countries of the world, there are misogynists who work tirelessly to undermine the progress women have made. There are political trends in our own country that are truly alarming. The treatment of women in many other areas of the world is horrific. How can anyone say they are not a feminist, when girls have acid thrown in their faces or are shot as they walk to school? Sharia Law, female circumcision, forced arranged marriage, the sex slave trade - if you are opposed to those things, you are a feminist, and you should not be ashamed to say so. We should never take our hard-won freedoms for granted. There are many who would have no qualms about taking it away. I whole heartedly agree. In my youth, I would've been appalled to be called a feminist. I felt feminism was anti-male and anti-family. It was given ugly names like Femi-Nazi. I was duped into believing that because I liked men and wanted to have a family I couldn't be a feminist. The change started coming after I and my sister faced some obvious gender discrimination in the military in the late 80's/early 90's. But the thing that made me embrace Feminism is reading this book Half the Sky. It was sort of a but for the grace of a God go I moment. It could be anyone of us. I feel responsibility to not take my freedoms for granted and to do what I can to help my sisters.
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Post by donna on Jul 25, 2014 4:24:22 GMT
I am sorry, I was wrong. There are 4 all male colleges left in the United States. In contrast, there are around 60 all female colleges.
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Deleted
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May 19, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 4:47:32 GMT
Women's colleges exist because they weren't *allowed* to attend all of the many colleges and universities that were founded solely for men and stayed that way - in some cases well into the latter half of the 20th century. There continues to be a handful of women's colleges, but more and more are going coed.
VMI & The Citadel are public institutions receiving tax dollars - that is why they had to stop discriminating based on gender. Private institutions are still allowed to be single-sex.
If there were lots of men or women clamoring for the single-sex college experience, we would be seeing the numbers of those schools stay static or increase. Rather, they are declining because it is getting increasingly difficult to recruit students to single-sex schools. There are very few all-male colleges because there aren't enough men who want to attend all-male colleges.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 25, 2014 4:49:43 GMT
I am sorry, I was wrong. There are 4 all male colleges left in the United States. In contrast, there are around 60 all female colleges. Ironically, the researchers who are bringing our attention to the "boy problem" in schools, which you mentioned upthread, often recommend all-boys schools as part of the solution.
That all-male v. all-female college disparity you mention is reflected in many parochial (mostly Catholic) high schools. Many of the traditionally all-boys schools changed to co-ed; fewer of the all-girls schools did. I think there are several factors at play (at least some of which have to do with status and selectivity), but mostly, people are just more interested in the all-female model for both secondary and college, and LESS interested in all-male - which is in itself fascinating.
ETA: But as BusyPea notes, it's all declining.
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NoWomanNoCry
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Posts: 5,856
Jun 25, 2014 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Jul 25, 2014 4:51:02 GMT
Every human is equal. No matter their sex. Period. Agreed!
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Deleted
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May 19, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 4:53:52 GMT
Yes, that is a huge part of it. You have me pegged, lol. Also, the feminist movement has long been affiliated with groups like NOW, and I have never felt like I had anything in common with anyone from that group. Within the Christian church, there are all sorts of denominations...from liberal to conservative. Yes, the more right-leaning portion of the church makes the news more often, and I can understand why sometimes a more liberal leaning person would not want to be associated with that. But it's quite easy to find a flavor of Christianity that suits wherever your beliefs are. Therefore, it's easier disassociate yourself from say, evangelical Christians by saying, for example, "I'm not an evangelical Christian. I'm Episcopalian, and we accept same sex marriage." I don't know of any pro-life feminist groups. So to me, it's harder to disassociate those stereotypes from feminism, kwim? And are there any out there? I googled and am answering my own question: Yes, there are. Here's an example. << That group has been around since 1972 and I've never even heard of them! I agree that you can be any stripe of feminist that you want to be. But I would feel the need to explain myself if I did say that I was a feminist, because feminism is so closely associated with some things that I am completely against.
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Post by SabrinaM on Jul 25, 2014 4:54:21 GMT
Yes, Proudly!
I think some of the hesitance for some to say that they are feminists derives from those that use phrases like "Femi-Nazi" to convey that feminists are somehow Anti-men or Anti-family. Which couldn't be farther from the truth. Some have used it as a dirty word or a term of derision.
I'm appreciative of all of the women who have struggled and fought for our rights through the years. We WERE property at one time and it took a lot of time and passion to get us to where we are today. Exactly!
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 25, 2014 5:09:59 GMT
I don't know of any pro-life feminist groups. So to me, it's harder to disassociate those stereotypes from feminism, kwim? And are there any out there? I googled and am answering my own question: Yes, there are. Here's an example. << That group has been around since 1972 and I've never even heard of them! For the low, low price of $35 per year, you, too, can join! Bonus: they'll send you their publication, "The American Feminist." You can just display it on your coffee table. (And I never identify myself as "Christian" anymore; I identify myself by my denomination. In my lifetime, I believe the unadorned word "Christian" has been co-opted to mean evangelical or fundamentalist - but that's grist for a whole 'nother thread, eh?)
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Deleted
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May 19, 2024 14:06:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 5:22:06 GMT
I consider myself a person who is female. I try to get out of labeling myself because that draws lines between me and the next person. It's more about what I believe on a topic, and "feminist" is defined too largely for me to say I fit all of those. I prefer to not confine myself to a label.
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NoWomanNoCry
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,856
Jun 25, 2014 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Jul 25, 2014 5:27:26 GMT
I went back and was reading replies and this whole thread reminds me of what my MIL said to me once. She said the worst thing to happen was the feminist movement. She believes woman should stay home and aren't suppose to be in the workplace. Now while I DON'T agree with this I do respect her view or anyone else's view like this. What I don't agree with and something that really set me off was her saying this: that adultery is higher now than back in the day because women are in the workforce now tempting men and it makes them (the husbands cheat) I was shocked! Funny thing is she is unaware of the fact that I know her husband (my FIL) cheated as left her for another woman back in the early 70s and again in the mid 80s each time the woman he left her for was not someone he met in the workforce at all...in fact both of them were homemakers! I wanted soooo bad to ask her "well what's your husbands excuse for cheating and leaving you then"? I mean lord forbid it has to do with either your husband is a jerk and/or your having issues in your marriage...nope it's those workforce women tempting the men I tell ya!
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anniebygaslight
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I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
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Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 25, 2014 6:57:30 GMT
This doesn't mean I stomp around criticising men and burning my underwear, but my expectations of equal treatment land me well and truly in the feminist category. However, it doesn't mean that I would object to a man opening a door for me. I hold the door open for men, if they happen to be entering a building behind me.
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craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on Jul 25, 2014 7:15:06 GMT
This doesn't mean I stomp around criticising men and burning my underwear, but my expectations of equal treatment land me well and truly in the feminist category. However, it doesn't mean that I would object to a man opening a door for me. I hold the door open for men, if they happen to be entering a building behind me. I am a feminist. I believe in common courtesy and opening doors and generally being polite. I should not be denied opportunity, or paid less, or forced into a lifestyle I don't want because I am female. But if I WANT to stay home and raise children, or follow a Biblical marriage, or any of those other things - I should be allowed to make the CHOICE.
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Post by penny on Jul 25, 2014 7:56:09 GMT
I'm always confused when people mention how men and women are different and so that's why they don't believe in feminism... It's not about hate or making people identical, cookie cutter versions of each other - it's about equal treatment... Men and women are different - I don't know of any feminist who argues that point... Feminism means that you believe the rights of women are not less than the rights of men... That women should be treated equally - that may mean being treated the same, or that may mean being treated differently but fairly and with respect... It's absolutely not about hating men either... You cannot advocate for respect, acceptance, fair treatment, equal representation, or any other issue while being disrespectful, exclusionary, biased, or ignorant of another gender... It goes against the beliefs and the argument you are trying to make for women... As an aside, "women's issues" are not just issues for women... Jackson Katz is amazing at explaining why women's issues/feminist issues are also men's issues, children's issues, and human issues... Hope the link works - it's his TED talk, about 20 min and he packs a lot into that time... youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by bothmykidsrbrats on Jul 25, 2014 7:57:22 GMT
I chose the "not sure" option. The term has changed so much over the years. I believe in equal pay for equal work, a womans right over her body, and the human right to marry the person they love. I was also thrilled to become, the very traditional, Mrs. Brats, when I married my DH. I guess that makes me a life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness kinda girl.
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Post by wholarmor on Jul 25, 2014 8:07:07 GMT
Well said, Tina.
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Post by brina on Jul 25, 2014 11:53:36 GMT
Equal means entitled to the same rights and having equal worth/value, not that men and women are exactly the same. To borrow a math example, the intergers 1 and -1 are absolutely DIFFERENT. But their net value is the same: |-1| = 1. I like this - I am going to use it - thank you
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Post by peace on Jul 25, 2014 12:14:20 GMT
I do. I also know that over the years I have learned that there are a LOT of definitions of what people consider to be feminism. yep, this. I think some women think they are- but really aren't. My 14 yr old has taught me SO much on this topic and here I thought I would be teaching her.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 25, 2014 12:41:06 GMT
This doesn't mean I stomp around criticising men and burning my underwear, but my expectations of equal treatment land me well and truly in the feminist category. Maybe we are just humanists if we just want equal treatment? I'm a humanist, not because I'm not a feminist but because equality for females is not my only interest or goal. I want equality for so many others it boggles the mind. Hell in some places women have taken greater steps towards equality than gay men have ( cough cough the construction and building trades for one cough )
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Post by denda on Jul 25, 2014 13:35:15 GMT
No.
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Post by carly on Jul 25, 2014 14:14:48 GMT
No I am not. We are not all equal. If you want to do the same job as a man then do the requirements. Don't just do half the push ups or pull ups, that's such bull crap. My brother is a fireman they had a lady who was trying to be a fire fighter , the requirement was to climb a ladder, start a 2 cycle chain saw and cut a whole in the roof. She couldn't start the chain saw but they gave her the job. Now that isn't fair when they gave her the job when there was someone else who could do the job.
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Post by Barbie on Jul 25, 2014 14:41:22 GMT
I don't know…I have some fairly traditional thoughts on gender roles--I think that (sweeping generalization here) women are more suited to making a home and caring for the children. Men are more suited to killing something and dragging it home, and protecting the family unit. There are exceptions, of course. My older brother and my OSDP were both the primary caregivers and homemakers in their dual income marriages. Both their wives were career driven types, without much patience for the childrearing and homemaking. Now, my brother was (he died last year) very successful professionally. He still earned a lot more than his wife, and was highly respected in his field. But when the kids got hurt or sick, or had a bad dream or needed a ride to soccer practice or a friend's house, it was daddy they turned to. OSDP and his ex-wife had a huge income disparity in her favor, but that was more because she chose a highly lucrative field, and he didn't. They were both successful in their fields, but one was just much higher paying. But again, the kids turned to dad before mom for their needs--from cooking and laundry, to help with homework, to comfort and nurturing--it was always dad. However, I firmly believe my brother and OSDP are the exceptions rather than the rule. Both of my ex husbands had little or no interest in anything domestic. Same with my father and my younger brother.
At the same time, I have real issues with women being paid less than men for the same work. With women being blamed for being sexually assaulted. With women being expected to hold down full-time jobs AND raise the children and care for the home. With employers punishing women when they have to take time to care for sick kids, because their husbands can't or won't.
I like my OSDP's view on feminism: Women are capable of doing anything and everything. But they shouldn't have to.
He's a true gentleman. He opens doors, gives up his seat, won't let me carry things if he can carry them, he puts gas in my car for me, and does his best to take care of me. He even does laundry frequently, and cooks on weekends, and we usually grocery shop together. At the same time, I do my best to take care of him in the traditional ways--I keep our home nice and clean, I do most of the laundry and cook most of the meals, even packing lunch for him most days. I don't currently work outside the home. I am also helping him raise his teenage daughter, taking her to and from school every day, packing her lunches, etc. So we have pretty traditional roles in our home, but there is so much respect for each other. There's no exerting control over each other or power plays. There's no feeling of superiority because he's a man.
So I don't know if I'm a feminist or not.
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oblibby
Full Member
Posts: 211
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Jul 10, 2014 10:30:12 GMT
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Post by oblibby on Jul 25, 2014 14:45:07 GMT
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Post by shevy on Jul 25, 2014 14:46:02 GMT
I think it's interesting to note that the feminists of the 70s that fought for equal rights are older and the younger generation of women who don't remember the 60s/70s/80s, are swinging backt o not identifying with feminism. I think that they have this percepption of the militant feminist that was on TV and in the documentaries about that time. But not all feminists are militant and 'bad'. The movement was supported by thousands of women who did small things and didn't protest or make a big deal about it.
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Post by Meri-Lyn on Jul 25, 2014 14:48:19 GMT
I went back and was reading replies and this whole thread reminds me of what my MIL said to me once. She said the worst thing to happen was the feminist movement. She believes woman should stay home and aren't suppose to be in the workplace. Now while I DON'T agree with this I do respect her view or anyone else's view like this. What I don't agree with and something that really set me off was her saying this: that adultery is higher now than back in the day because women are in the workforce now tempting men and it makes them (the husbands cheat) I was shocked! Funny thing is she is unaware of the fact that I know her husband (my FIL) cheated as left her for another woman back in the early 70s and again in the mid 80s each time the woman he left her for was not someone he met in the workforce at all...in fact both of them were homemakers! I wanted soooo bad to ask her "well what's your husbands excuse for cheating and leaving you then"? I mean lord forbid it has to do with either your husband is a jerk and/or your having issues in your marriage...nope it's those workforce women tempting the men I tell ya! Ah, heck, I've seen that here on 2peas. How many threads have we had in the past about how their husband can't have lunch with, or be alone in a car with, a female co-worker? So for some, those attitudes have not evolved.
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Post by Meri-Lyn on Jul 25, 2014 14:50:39 GMT
What is OSDP?
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