grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 25, 2014 14:55:00 GMT
I went back and was reading replies and this whole thread reminds me of what my MIL said to me once. She said the worst thing to happen was the feminist movement. She believes woman should stay home and aren't suppose to be in the workplace. Now while I DON'T agree with this I do respect her view or anyone else's view like this. What I don't agree with and something that really set me off was her saying this: that adultery is higher now than back in the day because women are in the workforce now tempting men and it makes them (the husbands cheat) I was shocked! Funny thing is she is unaware of the fact that I know her husband (my FIL) cheated as left her for another woman back in the early 70s and again in the mid 80s each time the woman he left her for was not someone he met in the workforce at all...in fact both of them were homemakers! I wanted soooo bad to ask her "well what's your husbands excuse for cheating and leaving you then"? I mean lord forbid it has to do with either your husband is a jerk and/or your having issues in your marriage...nope it's those workforce women tempting the men I tell ya! Ah, heck, I've seen that here on 2peas. How many threads have we had in the past about how their husband can't have lunch with, or be alone in a car with, a female co-worker? So for some, those attitudes have not evolved. So true. So. Very. True. And it's so sad. Women who don't follow the societal expectation of women are still considered the enemy and the downfall of men. Because there's no way that the man could possibly be at fault. Oh no... those women who dare to do something different are the ones to blame. It's all their fault. If they didn't stray from the path, there would be no infidelity. SMH
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Post by Barbie on Jul 25, 2014 15:02:38 GMT
LOL--Opposite Sex Domestic Partner. There's no good term for it. We're too old (I'm 46 and he's 50) to use the terms boyfriend and girlfriend. We aren't married, and not sure we want to be after 3 failed marriages between us. The term Domestic Partner is most commonly used for same sex couples. So OSDP!
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Post by missfrenchjessica on Jul 25, 2014 15:03:10 GMT
I am proudly a feminist.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 25, 2014 15:07:04 GMT
Absolutely 100%. I see feminism as the movement that promotes equal treatment of women in political, social, and economic matters. I think feminism as a movement is veering off its original course but that is really another matter.
I am also a Christian, and I believe that men and women should serve each other in mutual submission - because the headship of the man is like the headship of Christ in His Church - which is not some sort of authoritarian regime but a self-sacrificing love that makes her beautiful and holy. I believe that means that in marriage we are a team, in business we are mutual servants, and we should serve equally in the church, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. In no matter is my relationship with Christ mediated by my genitalia, therefore I believe that men and women have equal access to God through Christ and therefore I reject gender-based hierarchy in the church.
Men and women, obviously, are different. And that is good. And there are a number of practical realities that come with that. But that does not mean that we should be paid differently, hired differently, represented differently, or that we should not have the choices necessary to determine what we do with our lives.
So maybe to some extent I am really more an egalitarian but given that prior to feminism women were barely considered to be equally human (and in some places still are not), I suspect it is feminism that gives me the ability to even consider egalitarianism as a philosophy and therefore I am still a feminist through and through.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,378
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 25, 2014 15:44:51 GMT
Men and women are not always physically "equal." Men and other men are not always physically equal. If there are legitimate requirements for a certain job, physical or otherwise, and someone doesn't meet those requirements, they should not get the job--plain and simple. Gender should play absolutely no role in that decision.
However, if someone does meet all of the requirements for a job, they should be able to get that job no matter their gender.
I never understood people that use differences in males and females as an argument against feminism.
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oldcrow
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,828
Location: Ontario,Canada
Jun 26, 2014 12:25:29 GMT
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Post by oldcrow on Jul 25, 2014 16:45:41 GMT
Yes I am a feminist. I believe in equality for all no matter their gender, race, colour, age, religion or anything else.
I believe in equal pay for equal work but at the same time I believe it should be the same qualifications and testing for all. If you cannot meet the physical demands of a test then you should not get lesser testing but be past over for the job or to be fair less testing for anyone applying.
I do not like extremism but I was a young woman in the 60s and 70s and know that it was that militant attitude that got a lot done for women. And it is that militant attitude that will continue to get us more equality. No one is going to just give it to us.
I am married (twice) but have worked my whole adult life. I know what it is like to suddenly find oneself divorced with children and I was so glad I had a job to support them with.
It was my father who taught me to be prepared and not to rely wholly on another person to supply me with what is necessary. My mother never had a job her whole life and she considered herself to be only an extension of my father. Lucky for her he took his job as husband seriously.
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NoWomanNoCry
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,856
Jun 25, 2014 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by NoWomanNoCry on Jul 25, 2014 17:14:53 GMT
Ah, heck, I've seen that here on 2peas. How many threads have we had in the past about how their husband can't have lunch with, or be alone in a car with, a female co-worker? So for some, those attitudes have not evolved. So true. So. Very. True. And it's so sad. Women who don't follow the societal expectation of women are still considered the enemy and the downfall of men. Because there's no way that the man could possibly be at fault. Oh no... those women who dare to do something different are the ones to blame. It's all their fault. If they didn't stray from the path, there would be no infidelity. SMH Exactly!
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jul 25, 2014 17:15:20 GMT
I consider myself a person who is female. I try to get out of labeling myself because that draws lines between me and the next person. It's more about what I believe on a topic, and "feminist" is defined too largely for me to say I fit all of those. I prefer to not confine myself to a label. Same for me. I don't like labels. My grandmother was the first female apprentice in our shipyard in 1967, my mom worked many years in male dominated fields and I have had many strong female role models in my family and lifetime. But that doesn't mean that I need to be labeled for someone else's satisfaction. How many people on this very thread are pushing others to identify themselves as feminists while also saying they aren't militant. Part of being equal and having choices is not being forced into labeling yourself for others. Yes, I am for equal rights for all.
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schizo319
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,030
Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
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Post by schizo319 on Jul 25, 2014 22:09:43 GMT
I don't know what the cultural definition of feminism is anymore. I do have some ideas that don't seem to align with feminism though. Mainly the idea that a woman cannot be a successful jet-setting career woman and world's best mom at the same time - I think one of those things has to suffer and women can't really do it "ALL" effectively like we've been told. I also believe that feminism has changed the way that men behave in this country. We've spent so many years telling them how irrelevant and unneeded they are that they have no expectations to live up to as a husband and father. I might've had my "feminist" card revoked the last time I voiced THAT sentiment in the right company . I don't personally see where either of those is inconducive to feminism, but that's what I've been told. Honestly, though I'm just not a "labels" kind of girl. I don't call myself an "Artist" (even though I am), mainly because I don't want to align myself with those douchey pretentious artist types - which probably makes me just as douchey as they are...
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 13:48:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 22:17:37 GMT
I don't think that there's any tenent of feminisim that says that women have to do it ALL. I think the more accurate feminist belief would be that we CAN do anything -- women are just as capable of having careers as men are. Personally, I believe women can do ANYTHING, but we can't do EVERYTHING. OR maybe that's just what I tell myself so I can feel better.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,378
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 25, 2014 22:38:38 GMT
I don't know what the cultural definition of feminism is anymore. I do have some ideas that don't seem to align with feminism though. Mainly the idea that a woman cannot be a successful jet-setting career woman and world's best mom at the same time - I think one of those things has to suffer and women can't really do it "ALL" effectively like we've been told. I also believe that feminism has changed the way that men behave in this country. We've spent so many years telling them how irrelevant and unneeded they are that they have no expectations to live up to as a husband and father. I might've had my "feminist" card revoked the last time I voiced THAT sentiment in the right company . I don't personally see where either of those is inconducive to feminism, but that's what I've been told. Honestly, though I'm just not a "labels" kind of girl. I don't call myself an "Artist" (even though I am), mainly because I don't want to align myself with those douchey pretentious artist types - which probably makes me just as douchey as they are... So if women cannot have successful jet setting careers and be great mothers, can men have successful jet setting careers and be great dads? As for your other point... Are you saying that it's women's fault that men aren't living up to expectations? That's exactly the kind of sentiment that chaps my feminist ass. Let me get this straight--if women are successful and independent, that means men have to be irrelevant? And then they just stop trying? And that's our fault? So should we just stop trying to be successful and independent? Or should we just stop rubbing it in their faces? What exactly can we do to make them feel better so that they will be good husbands and fathers?
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 26, 2014 0:00:04 GMT
I don't know what the cultural definition of feminism is anymore. I do have some ideas that don't seem to align with feminism though. Mainly the idea that a woman cannot be a successful jet-setting career woman and world's best mom at the same time - I think one of those things has to suffer and women can't really do it "ALL" effectively like we've been told. Have you read Anne-Marie Slaughter's "Why Women Still Can't Have it All"? It caused a firestorm when it was published in The Atlantic two years ago. (Settle in; it's a long read.) Personally, I think much comes down to how couples handle sharing of the "Second Shift" duties (child rearing and housework). "I can bring home the bacon and stir it up in the pan" was a pipe dream, and unfair, to boot. I'm using the word "sharing," but why do working mothers insist on talking about how much/little their husbands "help" them, as if the husband is doing the wife a favor? Regarding your second point, KatyBee did a good job of responding to that. There are many men who need to step up to the plate, or are falling victim to the "Man-Child" trap - but I don't think women should shoulder responsibility for the choices these men have made. Women have shouldered enough responsibility when it comes to roles.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 26, 2014 0:46:15 GMT
I am absolutely a feminist. In my first job, women were paid less than men, even though they did the same job. And if you mentioned it, you were written up. Things used to be much worse back then. Sexual harassment happened a lot, and there was nothing that you could do about it.
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Sweets McPea
Junior Member
Posts: 75
Jun 25, 2014 23:03:39 GMT
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Post by Sweets McPea on Jul 26, 2014 1:21:08 GMT
Sadly, in this Orwellian world feminism stopped being a word. "Feminists" would have a serious problem with Islam's honor killings and clictorectomies. But they don't.
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Post by Tamhugh on Jul 26, 2014 1:22:41 GMT
And therefore you asked his parents for their permission too, right? Because he was marrying your whole family and you were marrying his. Or, you want your sons' girlfriends to approach you and ask for your blessing as well? Well, if it's a surprise engagement, it would be hard for them to do that. But I do hope that my sons ask for our blessing before they propose as well as for the blessing of the girls' families. I had a friend who proposed to her husband. She spoke to his parents first since she was the one asking. It may not be rational, but I like tradition. If they fall in love with girls who are vocal about not wanting that to happen, then of course, they should respect that.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 26, 2014 1:29:38 GMT
Sadly, in this Orwellian world feminism stopped being a word. "Feminists" would have a serious problem with Islam's honor killings and clictorectomies. But they don't. What gives you the impression that feminists don't have a problem with this stuff? Feminists were taking action with regard to female genital mutilation when I was a young feminist in the early 1990s. Likely before, but I learned about it via feminist news magazines around that time.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 26, 2014 2:19:23 GMT
Sadly, in this Orwellian world feminism stopped being a word. "Feminists" would have a serious problem with Islam's honor killings and clictorectomies. But they don't. I don't think feminism has anything to do with having a serious issue with those things. Simply being a compassionate human and you would have a problem with that. IMHO
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 13:48:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 2:21:14 GMT
Sadly, in this Orwellian world feminism stopped being a word. "Feminists" would have a serious problem with Islam's honor killings and clictorectomies. But they don't.
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Post by elaine on Jul 26, 2014 2:29:05 GMT
Same work deserves equal pay and equal power.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 13:48:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 3:08:59 GMT
Absolutely 100%. I see feminism as the movement that promotes equal treatment of women in political, social, and economic matters. I think feminism as a movement is veering off its original course but that is really another matter. I am also a Christian, and I believe that men and women should serve each other in mutual submission - because the headship of the man is like the headship of Christ in His Church - which is not some sort of authoritarian regime but a self-sacrificing love that makes her beautiful and holy. I believe that means that in marriage we are a team, in business we are mutual servants, and we should serve equally in the church, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. In no matter is my relationship with Christ mediated by my genitalia, therefore I believe that men and women have equal access to God through Christ and therefore I reject gender-based hierarchy in the church. Men and women, obviously, are different. And that is good. And there are a number of practical realities that come with that. But that does not mean that we should be paid differently, hired differently, represented differently, or that we should not have the choices necessary to determine what we do with our lives. So maybe to some extent I am really more an egalitarian but given that prior to feminism women were barely considered to be equally human (and in some places still are not), I suspect it is feminism that gives me the ability to even consider egalitarianism as a philosophy and therefore I am still a feminist through and through. She said it right.
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schizo319
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,030
Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
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Post by schizo319 on Jul 26, 2014 15:56:37 GMT
Nope. I think to have a very successful career and family it takes more than 50% devoted to each - no matter what genetailia a person possesses. I can be good at my job even if it gets 30% of me while my family gets 70%, but I'm probably not going to be making partner in a law firm on that amount of effort. Nobody has ever expected men to be the primary breadwinner AND the main caregiver of their families - but as women, it is expected of us. There ARE some amazing single mothers out there that are damn good at balancing highly successful careers/families, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule (at least in my personal life). Realistically, if I have a highly demanding career, there are things in my children's lives that I'm going to miss out on, or there will be days when I might miss an important meeting at work because I took off to watch my kid star in the 3rd grade play. That doesn't make me a BAD employee or a BAD parent, it just means I'm not as great at either as I could be if the other weren't "in the way" - does that make sense?
Of course it isn't our FAULT that men aren't living up to their expectations - I'm sorry if I gave the impression that's what I meant at all. All I'm saying is that I think it gives men a convenient excuse. I think there are some men who think "well she can do it all, so I'm off the hook". I certainly wouldn't trade everything that feminism has brought us as women because of what I see as one slight drawback. I just believe that we've spent so much time telling out girls that they should strive to have/do it ALL, young boys have subconsciously absorbed that and it affects their behavior in some instances as adults. How to avoid that? I don't know that we can or that it's even a big enough deal that we should - it was just a simple observation.
YES! That's what brought the original discussion (in which I was told I wasn't a feminist for agreeing with some of the author's points) - thanks for linking that up, I'd forgotten where I'd seen it. I completely agree with you about SHARING the load. What I find baffling is that women seem to have adjusted to the idea of having a career AND being a caregiver/housekeeper/household accountant/etc. But it doesn't seem the same has gone for men - so many of them don't "help around the house", or complain about "babysitting the kids", etc. Why is that? What is it that has allowed women to adjust to the change at a seemingly higher rate than men?
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 26, 2014 18:27:31 GMT
Sadly, in this Orwellian world feminism stopped being a word. "Feminists" would have a serious problem with Islam's honor killings and clictorectomies. But they don't. Can you tell us more, please?
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 26, 2014 18:37:47 GMT
Necessity, perhaps? Guilt? Unrealistic expectations from ourselves? our husbands and children? even other women (the "Mommy Wars")?
It sure is a kettle of fish, though - and its themes play out in threads here every day.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,618
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jul 26, 2014 18:38:27 GMT
Absolutely!
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goodwitch
Shy Member
Posts: 39
Jun 29, 2014 22:30:25 GMT
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Post by goodwitch on Jul 26, 2014 19:54:29 GMT
I don't know what the cultural definition of feminism is anymore. I do have some ideas that don't seem to align with feminism though. Mainly the idea that a woman cannot be a successful jet-setting career woman and world's best mom at the same time - I think one of those things has to suffer and women can't really do it "ALL" effectively like we've been told. I also believe that feminism has changed the way that men behave in this country. We've spent so many years telling them how irrelevant and unneeded they are that they have no expectations to live up to as a husband and father. I might've had my "feminist" card revoked the last time I voiced THAT sentiment in the right company . I don't personally see where either of those is inconducive to feminism, but that's what I've been told. Honestly, though I'm just not a "labels" kind of girl. I don't call myself an "Artist" (even though I am), mainly because I don't want to align myself with those douchey pretentious artist types - which probably makes me just as douchey as they are... I agree with your view of labels. Although I'm from the generation that coined the term "Feminist" I also refrain from aligning myself with the term. I think that in some peoples' minds it equates to being a fanatic.
I am very happy that women are now in many political and corporate positions that were unheard of in the 1960s, but I also believe that women are different than men and vise versa. Just because I am capable of doing certain things that men can do I don't necessarily want to do those things; ie. pee standing up (jk)...
I understand where you are coming from when you say that feminism has changed the way that men in this country behave. When I was a teenager boys were taught to hold the door for ladies. However, when they are snapped at and told by women that they can hold their own doors, young men quit offering.
Now that I'm a "Senior Citizen" I appreciate a man holding the door for me or offering to lift a heavy object.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 26, 2014 20:30:17 GMT
I am sorry, I was wrong. There are 4 all male colleges left in the United States. In contrast, there are around 60 all female colleges. Ironically, the researchers who are bringing our attention to the "boy problem" in schools, which you mentioned upthread, often recommend all-boys schools as part of the solution.
That all-male v. all-female college disparity you mention is reflected in many parochial (mostly Catholic) high schools. Many of the traditionally all-boys schools changed to co-ed; fewer of the all-girls schools did. I think there are several factors at play (at least some of which have to do with status and selectivity), but mostly, people are just more interested in the all-female model for both secondary and college, and LESS interested in all-male - which is in itself fascinating.
ETA: But as BusyPea notes, it's all declining.
I think there's one more reason for the proliferation (relative to all-male schools) of women's colleges. Women traditionally become more submissive in co-ed high school and college situations and defer to boys/men in the classroom. All-women schools allow them to really bloom academically without holding themselves back, even subconsciously. Men don't have this problem and don't need all-male schools to ensure that they can come into their own. Surprisingly, I'm sure.
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Post by Linda on Jul 26, 2014 20:40:46 GMT
absolutely not. In fact I think feminism has done women at least as much of a disservice as it has a favour.
I think it's great that women have the right to vote and to be anything career-wise that a man can be. I think it's less great that women are now expected to have careers AND raise the children AND clean the house AND...handle the male AND female roles while men, for the most part (there are exceptions, there always are) don't have those expectations on them - they are expected to have a career. If they do childcare they are 'Mr mom' or they are babysitting their own children; if they do housework, they are 'helping' their wives....
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Post by lucyg on Jul 26, 2014 21:25:38 GMT
absolutely not. In fact I think feminism has done women at least as much of a disservice as it has a favour. I think it's great that women have the right to vote and to be anything career-wise that a man can be. I think it's less great that women are now expected to have careers AND raise the children AND clean the house AND...handle the male AND female roles while men, for the most part (there are exceptions, there always are) don't have those expectations on them - they are expected to have a career. If they do childcare they are 'Mr mom' or they are babysitting their own children; if they do housework, they are 'helping' their wives.... That is all pretty much 100% YOUR interpretation and not the reality of what "feminism" and "equal rights" mean. I hope that's not a description of your family situation.
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MaryMary
Pearl Clutcher
Lazy
Posts: 2,975
Jun 25, 2014 21:56:13 GMT
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Post by MaryMary on Jul 26, 2014 21:28:08 GMT
I am.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 13:48:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 22:55:22 GMT
absolutely not. In fact I think feminism has done women at least as much of a disservice as it has a favour. I think it's great that women have the right to vote and to be anything career-wise that a man can be. I think it's less great that women are now expected to have careers AND raise the children AND clean the house AND...handle the male AND female roles while men, for the most part (there are exceptions, there always are) don't have those expectations on them - they are expected to have a career. If they do childcare they are 'Mr mom' or they are babysitting their own children; if they do housework, they are 'helping' their wives.... That is all pretty much 100% YOUR interpretation and not the reality of what "feminism" and "equal rights" mean. I hope that's not a description of your family situation. I agree. I've been married 27 years, have worked outside the home for those 27 years while raising our son and my husband has done the same. There were no different expectations for each of us and and I never referred to the time my husband spent with his son as "babysitting" nor is his help around the house labeled anything other than his responsibility also. I consider myself a feminist. Equal rights for all. It's that simple for me. I'm of the age where I was in high school during the height of the Equal Rights Amendment debate and it still boggles my mind that there are states that never did ratify that amendment. I'm proud to say that the state where I live was the 4th state in the country to ratify the amendment in 1972. Things have come a long way baby! BUT, I'm afraid that in my experience the young working women of today don't seem to appreciate the road that was paved for them in regards to the benefits they receive as a direct result of feminist organizations efforts almost 45 years ago. I'm sure not all young working women have the attitudes I've seen, but so far it's been 100% of the ones that work where I do.
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