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Post by elaine on Feb 7, 2016 18:52:47 GMT
But why is voting how they believe imposing? People vote on opposing views all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean hate. Because your vote denies basic rights and privileges to one group of people - that another group enjoys - based simply on what you admit is a biological inborn orientation.
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Post by miominmio on Feb 7, 2016 19:01:31 GMT
But just because you think that gay marriage should be legalized, and I'm not saying it should or shouldn't, isn't that forcing your beliefs on one that says it shouldn't. Where's the balance? As long as gay marriage isn't mandatory, it doesn't force anything on you.
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 7, 2016 19:01:39 GMT
But just because you think that gay marriage should be legalized, and I'm not saying it should or shouldn't, isn't that forcing your beliefs on one that says it shouldn't. Where's the balance? No, not the same thing at all. Beliefs are internal; they belong to you. They are opinions. Legislating a law that affects somebody else-but not you-is essentially taking your beliefs and forcing them on consenting adults. It is a slippery slope, I grant you, because someone will come along and say "But what about _______?"
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:06:11 GMT
But why is voting how they believe imposing? People vote on opposing views all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean hate. Because your vote denies basic rights and privileges to one group of people - that another group enjoys - based simply on what you admit is a biological inborn orientation. But like I said. This is why we vote. People have the right to vote how they want. Just because you don't agree with how they vote doesn't mean they hate.
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scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Feb 7, 2016 19:17:26 GMT
Not believing in same-sex marriage is absolutely your right and doesn't make you a hater. Voting against same-sex marriage for other people who aren't you and whose lives don't impinge on your own IS a form of hate. Agree. … I am never going to be involved in a same-sex marriage. But I also believe that God is love and there is too little love in the world..... Therefore, I am never going to hate someone for loving and I don't believe that God does either. And I know too many people involved in the same-sex relationship that really seems to work for them… I accept them for Who they are.
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scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Feb 7, 2016 19:17:51 GMT
I hope that someday being gay will stop being referred to as a "lifestyle". Is it being heterosexual lifestyle?
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Post by elaine on Feb 7, 2016 19:24:14 GMT
Because your vote denies basic rights and privileges to one group of people - that another group enjoys - based simply on what you admit is a biological inborn orientation. But like I said. This is why we vote. People have the right to vote how they want. Just because you don't agree with how they vote doesn't mean they hate. If your vote is to deny basic rights to people based on their biological make-up, rights that you enjoy, that is hate. Let's say your kids have blue eyes, none of my family have blue eyes, and I decide to start a campaign to deny the right to marry to people with blue eyes, denying them health insurance, hospital visitation, the ability to make their committed relationships legal. You can see how that would be hateful, wouldn't you? It doesn't affect me or my family, but it will prevent your children from EVER marrying, unless they deny they are blue eyed, wear contact lenses that make them seem brown-eyes that cause them vision problems, and if it is ever discovered they are blue eyed, it will be a huge scandal and they may lose their jobs. If you have blue-eyed children and deny that you have a problem with that, I wouldn't believe you. Being born gay is no different than being born with blue eyes.
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Post by wezee on Feb 7, 2016 19:25:00 GMT
I agree. My Grandsons 4,2 stay with us a lot and say I Hate.... fill in the blank a lot LOL. I have made a point of correcting them. "You mean I don't care for .... or I don't like ...." Hate is a very strong word. Hate leads to intolerance. If you don't nip it in the bud now it will be hard to change.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:27:26 GMT
I don't like the word hate either. And you can believe that just because someone votes the way they do means hate. I will never believe that. Everyone has a right to their opinion
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 11:28:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 19:28:41 GMT
Because your vote denies basic rights and privileges to one group of people - that another group enjoys - based simply on what you admit is a biological inborn orientation. But like I said. This is why we vote. People have the right to vote how they want. Just because you don't agree with how they vote doesn't mean they hate. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here but if you can't see that denying other human beings the rights that you enjoy and take for granted is not a form of hate then there really is no explaining it to you.
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,978
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Feb 7, 2016 19:31:37 GMT
You keep making a circular argument that completely ignores the very thoughtful explanations that have been offered. Which of course, is your "right." But if your vote is to deny someone else basic freedoms because of your personal beliefs as to their sexual orientation, you're going to have to live with the reality that the many if not the majority of people in today's society will consider that to be hateful.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:32:40 GMT
I am not being deliberately obtuse. Not sure what that means. It's my opinion. I have a right to my opinion. Just like everyone else.
Then I guess you can't explain it to me, because you can't tell me that because a person believes, or has the opinion, whether it is a Christian based belief or not, that marriage should be between man and woman that they hate another human being. To me. That's absurd. Some people might hate. I find that very sad. But not everyone does, and for people to just assume hate, where there might not be any, is just as sad to me.
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Post by Crack-a-lackin on Feb 7, 2016 19:33:03 GMT
But like I said. This is why we vote. People have the right to vote how they want. Just because you don't agree with how they vote doesn't mean they hate. If your vote is to deny basic rights to people based on their biological make-up, rights that you enjoy, that is hate. Let's say your kids have blue eyes, none of my family have blue eyes, and I decide to start a campaign to deny the right to marry to people with blue eyes, denying them health insurance, hospital visitation, the ability to make their committed relationships legal. You can see how that would be hateful, wouldn't you? It doesn't affect me or my family, but it will prevent your children from EVER marrying, unless they deny they are blue eyed, wear contact lenses that make them seem brown-eyes that cause them vision problems, and if it is ever discovered they are blue eyed, it will be a huge scandal and they may lose their jobs. If you have blue-eyed children and deny that you have a problem with that, I wouldn't believe you. Being born gay is no different than being born with blue eyes. Great analogy.
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Post by elaine on Feb 7, 2016 19:33:21 GMT
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Post by lucyg on Feb 7, 2016 19:33:44 GMT
I don't like the word hate either. And you can believe that just because someone votes the way they do means hate. I will never believe that. Everyone has a right to their opinion =sigh= I told myself I was done with this thread. Guess not. You're right, everyone has a right to his or her own opinion. But when you use the power of the vote to legally impose that opinion on other people in ways that hurt them when they aren't hurting you or anyone else, that is certainly evidence of deliberate unkindness. If you don't like the word hate.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:35:20 GMT
I don't like the word hate either. And you can believe that just because someone votes the way they do means hate. I will never believe that. Everyone has a right to their opinion =sigh= I told myself I was done with this thread. Guess not. You're right, everyone has a right to his or her own opinion. But when you use the power of the vote to legally impose that opinion on other people in ways that hurt them when they aren't hurting you or anyone else, that is certainly evidence of deliberate unkindness, if you don't like the word hate. So when people vote in favor of abortion lwhich is hurting the unborn baby, then does that person hate the unborn baby?
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Post by lucyg on Feb 7, 2016 19:36:21 GMT
Where is that head-banging smiley again?
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,978
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Feb 7, 2016 19:36:42 GMT
You should look it up.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:37:37 GMT
Where is that head-banging smiley again? I sort of feel the same way.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:38:17 GMT
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Feb 7, 2016 19:39:38 GMT
I often hear this said, but the reality is that we ALL look for legislation that comports with our own personal values. We vote for representatives based on our own beliefs and values (including moral)hoping that they will support and defend our own belief system. Why do you think people get so antsy about what type of person a president will appoint to the Supreme Court.
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It could also be said that just because "you" don't consider something morally wrong, that it gets to be acceptable for the country as a whole.
"you" (general you) don't consider abortion to be the killing of a baby. That doesn't mean that it isn't or that those who believe it is should stop fighting for laws restricting what THEY believe to be an unjustifiable killing of a person.
In the end, there are different morals and philosophies held by different people. Each person is going to vote in accordance with his/her own conscience. It doesn't make people "haters", "ignorant", "narrow minded" or any of the other terms one side just loves to throw at those who are on the other side of the belief scale.
As for "hurting" others, it again, applies to both sides of the issue. Banning abortions may hurt the mother who doesn't want a child. But, aborting the child definitely "hurts" the child and denies that child life. There are different philosophies on whether a fetus is a "person" but morally that dichotomy doesn't exist for some. They are not "haters" in looking to ban abortion (just using this as an example) anymore than pro-choice people are "baby haters". And the idea of "my body, my choice" while a lovely mantra really is simplistic.
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Post by gypsymama on Feb 7, 2016 19:40:14 GMT
hates the unborn baby?? you can't be for real
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 11:28:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 19:40:49 GMT
I am not being deliberately obtuse. Not sure what that means. It's my opinion. I have a right to my opinion. Just like everyone else. Then I guess you can't explain it to me, because you can't tell me that because a person believes, or has the opinion, whether it is a Christian based belief or not, that marriage should be between man and woman that they hate another human being. To me. That's absurd. Some people might hate. I find that very sad. But not everyone does, and for people to just assume hate, where there might not be any, is just as sad to me. Take gay out of the equation and replace it with human being, why do you want or need to deny other human beings the same rights that you have? Have a look at others through history who tried to do that, do you think they did it with love?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 11:28:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 19:42:37 GMT
I am not being deliberately obtuse. Not sure what that means. It's my opinion. I have a right to my opinion. Just like everyone else. Then I guess you can't explain it to me, because you can't tell me that because a person believes, or has the opinion, whether it is a Christian based belief or not, that marriage should be between man and woman that they hate another human being. To me. That's absurd. Some people might hate. I find that very sad. But not everyone does, and for people to just assume hate, where there might not be any, is just as sad to me. You're a Christian by choice. If people campaigned against Christians having freedom of religion - but maintaining that right for everyone, how would you feel about that? That it was just their opinion and thus OK? Everyone can vote how they wish, so no problem. Or would you feel personally attacked and wronged because people wanted to prevent you from having rights that everyone else has? Not cool, is it. Now imagine being the target of that for something you have NO choice in. Probably feels a bit like hate.
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Post by izzyscraps on Feb 7, 2016 19:43:15 GMT
I just did apply it to something else. I can see I'm the only one that thinks this way. So I will back out.
I don't believe hate is always the premise behind a vote for or against something. That's all
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Post by elaine on Feb 7, 2016 19:59:39 GMT
No one votes FOR abortion. They vote to maintain a woman's RIGHT TO CHOOSE.
If someone chooses to have an abortion, it might be for a multitude of reasons, including hating what the unborn embryo represents (incest, rape, etc.). That is between the woman and her body. It is NONE of my business and I don't have the right, IMO, to legislate what she does with it.
Just like you - general you - don't have the right to legislate whether two consenting adults have the right to marry based on their sexual orientation. It is none of your business, nor does it affect you, if the two women who live across the street from you decide to legalize their 5 year long committed relationship. In fact, you probably have interacted with a number of gay married people and had no idea because it had nothing to do with you or your relationship with them. Their marriages haven't hurt you, or denied you anything in any way.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Feb 7, 2016 20:05:40 GMT
I understand that Elaine. However, I stand by my post. You believe you are right and so do people who believe differently and each of you vote based upon your own set of beliefs for legislators and legislation that will fight for your beliefs.
Neither one of you is a "hater" or "ignorant" and calling people by those names is simply an attempt to shut the other side down and prevent them from voicing their beliefs. It doesn't change anyone's mind and it doesn't change how they vote or how they much they fight for their beliefs. If anything, it harden their position.
And it isn't a simple "let everyone do what they think is best". It just isn't. One good example I can point to in my own case: I'm pro choice. However, I am adamantly against the issuing of birth control and especially abortions to minors without the knowledge and consent of a parent. I don't care if the parent won't give consent. That is THEIR right as a parent. They get to decide what non-life threatening medical procedures are performed on their children. Very often I see those in the right to choose camp seeking to take that to an extreme where it impinges on other valuable and constitutionally protected right. I find it ludicrous that a high school nurse cannot give a teenager an aspirin without both parental and medical consent from a doctor. Yet an invasive procedure like abortion can be performed just on the say so of a 14 year old? No. That's insane. And so, although pro-choice, I will fight many pro-choice measures. Doesn't make me a hater. It is just not a simple mantra: pro or anti.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Feb 7, 2016 20:09:03 GMT
But why is voting how they believe imposing? People vote on opposing views all the time. Doesn't necessarily mean hate. Which is exactly why things like gay marriage and abortion should be kept out of political voting!!! The reason why it's there? Those subjects are 2 that get people riled up the best and the loudest. It's why they are political platforms in every.single.election. When we vote in the "off" years the ballots consist of civil issues that generally always affect the voters in that community everyday. When we vote in presidential or gubernatorial or senator elections it's in all of our heads where they stand on race, women, abortion, and gay marriage .
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Post by elaine on Feb 7, 2016 20:13:17 GMT
I understand that Elaine. However, I stand by my post. You believe you are right and so do people who believe differently and each of you vote based upon your own set of beliefs for legislators and legislation that will fight for your beliefs. Neither one of you is a "hater" or "ignorant" and calling people by those names is simply an attempt to shut the other side down and prevent them from voicing their beliefs. It doesn't change anyone's mind and it doesn't change how they vote or how they much they fight for their beliefs. If anything, it harden their position. I actually hadn't read your post when I wrote mine, Lauren. I was responding to izzyscraps. I haven't called anyone ignorant, or a hater, but in MY OPINION it is hateful to deny someone basic rights and privileges that you (general you) enjoy based on biological factors such as gender, skin color, and sexual orientation. My opinion, and I'm allowed to voice it as much as anyone else.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Feb 7, 2016 20:24:27 GMT
And others think that those who are pro-choice are baby murderers. Yet if they voice that opinion, you better believe they will be pounded into dust by the pro-choice people on this board.
It's the dualism (ie, that you can voice your opinion that label's another's belief as hateful and have other's hi-five you while those who voice a different opinion about your beliefs are viciously attacked) that I find hateful.
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