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Post by Karmady on Feb 7, 2016 16:28:08 GMT
I've been discussing careers with ds. He's in Grade 10 about to pick his courses for Grade 11. This is where career planning starts to kick in because he will need the prerequisites for programs that he's interested in. He is looking at both college and university options. College and university are distinctly different in Canada.
We've been discussing many options but one that came up was Dental Hygiene. One school had a collaborative program with 2 years in college for DH followed by 2 years in university. You end up with a diploma in DH and a degree in Public Health which is a very good combination. Job prospects are great, starting wages are very good (not that ds is sold on the idea but exploring different options is a good idea).
Anyway, Dental Hygienists are 95% female. Why is that? Dentists are increasingly male and female. Male dentists can be compassionate. Why are there so few males in Dental Hygiene?
Nursing is still a predominantly female occupation yet physicians are male and female. Again, in our area nurses are well paid and still in demand. Why so few males?
Why are female numbers still low in the trade sector if job prospects are good?
It used to be that way in engineering but I believe it's around 50/50 in Ontario now.
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Post by mikklynn on Feb 7, 2016 16:32:34 GMT
I have no idea, but it's definitely still true in my industry...oil and gas, heavy industrial.
I had a male dental hygienist once. My first thought was it was weird, then I was immediately ashamed of myself. I loved him!
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tincin
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Post by tincin on Feb 7, 2016 16:37:46 GMT
I know that the numbers are low in the trades sectors because of discrimination. You can hardly get hired if you are a female or non-white. I was one of the first women in trades where I work and it was not easy. I still hear how I don't belong here, 37 years later. There were quite a few women who simply couldn't take the continual harassment and quit. Screw that, I wasn't giving up the money or the benefits because some neanderthal thought I didn't deserve a good paying job.
The discrimination is institutionalized. Tools, clothing, safety equipment, are all designed to fit men and women have to make due. It's a constant battle. Part of it is the specific plant I work for in the corporation, part of it is the corporation, and part of it is the manufacturers of equipment and clothing.
As for men seeking traditional women's careers, most careers dominated by women do not pay well. Daycare providers, waitressing, housekeeping, hairdressing, cooking, secretarial work, etc., men don't want to do it because it is tough work and the pay is not great.
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happymomma
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Aug 6, 2014 23:57:56 GMT
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Post by happymomma on Feb 7, 2016 16:42:39 GMT
I guess because men don't choose those careers? I know a lot of male nurses, but yes most that I know are women. That has nothing to do with discrimination. It has to do with how many guys have decided to become a nurse.
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Post by Merge on Feb 7, 2016 16:44:45 GMT
Idk but I sure was grateful for the woman who jimmied open my stuck hood latch and replaced my headlights at Autozone this morning!
I think some of it has to do with most men being unwilling to step outside traditionally masculine occupations for fear of being seen as weak or effeminate.
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Post by Karmady on Feb 7, 2016 16:47:37 GMT
tincin, you are amazing. Good for you for not putting up with the crap.
I was specifically talking about female dominated positions that are in demand and pay well. Why aren't men entering these occupations?
It used to be that way in teaching. It was predominantly female but that has changed. Teaching is not a good career to enter at this time in Ontario. There are thousands of unemployed teachers here. I think the number is 25,000+ certified teachers that can't find employment.
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paigepea
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Post by paigepea on Feb 7, 2016 16:57:53 GMT
I wonder if women consider family life / having children when choosing careers? Perhaps they continue to choose jobs where part time work is accessible and accepted. I don't know the answer. Sorry. My dd took an engineering program in the summer at our university. She was 6 at the time and noticed that the engineering building was covered in photos of boy graduates. She asked where the girl graduates were and I explained that most girls didn't become engineers in olden days. She asked her teachers (mostly girls / engineering students) and they said that this was the first year that the graduating class was half girls and half boys. Now I have a 7 year old daughter determined to become an engineer and increase the number of girl photos on the walls of the engineering building. She even asked me if she could go straight to university instead of grade 2. Then she talked to my cousin who is an engineer (male) who told her she should be very good at math to become an engineer. She replied that math is her favourite subject, but she had us sign her up for extra math classes on the weekend so she could learn more math. She's writing her first (grade 2) math contest this month She has also realized that she can combine her loves : earth, math and engineering, to become a rocket scientist. Oy. And she is currently, like right now, building a replica of the Eiffel Tower out of a bazillion pieces (and with very poor directions, it's really driving dh crazy!) because she thinks learning about nuts and bolts is a good skill for engineers to have. So it seems that a little motivation in the gender department has gone a long way for my dd. Good luck to your ds! Paige.
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Gennifer
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Post by Gennifer on Feb 7, 2016 17:03:38 GMT
Misogyny.
And not intentional, by any means. But it's sort of ingrained into men, and I don't think they (for the most part) even realize it. One of the worst (and most common) insults a guy gives another guy is calling him a pussy. Being like a woman is an insult.
When we see women breaking into male-dominated fields, we think it's great. But a guy who goes into a female-dominated field is not so lauded. Anyone see Meet the Parents, with Ben Stiller? One of the running jokes throughout it is that he is a male nurse, instead of a doctor, and he is harassed for doing that. I'm sure the same thing happens IRL.
We still have a long way to go for equality.
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Post by Karmady on Feb 7, 2016 17:18:12 GMT
So true Gennifer!
Paige, my dd was and still is exactly the same. She was naturally driven at a young age in science and math. She's in second yr of Biomedical Science and absolutely driven to be a doctor and it's so hard to get into med school. She works night and day to get an A average, volunteers with various health related organizations, committees on campus and a club sport. DD knows that she has to present herself as a well-rounded candidate. She has already said that she will apply to Med School in Ireland as well if she can't get in. Pushing herself makes her happy LOL.
When dd comes home at holiday time, she's bored within a day or two because she is so driven to do things.
Ds, isn't as driven but naturally smart. He has ADHD which really affects his executive function. He takes few notes, never studies and hands in assignments last minute or late. He still gets high marks. I'm trying to get him into a career that's somewhat in demand with a good starting salary suited to his style. Not a general BA or BSc. because it's tough to find employment. Something more specific like Biomedical Engineering Tech with a possible bridge to university. He's expressed an interest in the Paramedic program, Respiratory Therapy and Cognitive Behaviour as well. We're just exploring at this point trying to make sure that he has the prerequisites in Grade 11 and 12 to enter any of these programs in college or university.
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Post by scrapsotime on Feb 7, 2016 17:20:14 GMT
My husband was the only male in his surgical tech program. This was about 10 years ago.
I also agree with tincin. I have a friend who is a college professor and a scientist. she had an older male professor tell her she would never get tenure because she had children (she already had tenure when he said this). That's something no one would tell a male. She also had a superior introduce her team to a vistor. All the males were introduced as Dr So and so. she was introduced by just her first name. The visitor question what she did and she had to tell him that she was a doctor, too and was the head of the lab.
There is still a feeling by the 'old guard' that some jobs are just for men and some are just for women. Some of them just aren't quite so obvious as they used to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 17:25:02 GMT
tincin, you are amazing. Good for you for not putting up with the crap. I was specifically talking about female dominated positions that are in demand and pay well. Why aren't men entering these occupations? It used to be that way in teaching. It was predominantly female but that has changed. Teaching is not a good career to enter at this time in Ontario. There are thousands of unemployed teachers here. I think the number is 25,000+ certified teachers that can't find employment. Males often don't enter them because the starting pay may seem good but there is a distinct lack of advancement over a 30 year career. Most women tend to be ok with the lack of advancement. As a group we aren't conditioned to think long term and where the job progresses upward. Males are much more likely to have had some level of "ambition" modeled for them.. the need to think long term about where this job leads for a career. A dentist can join a practice, develop a stand alone practice, be the head/developer for a group of new dentists. A dental hygienist will need to be hired by a dentist. That is the option. Women are more apt to think about flexibility for family life and not want to take on the responsibility/risk of owning a practice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 17:30:20 GMT
We talk about that at work quite often. We are a family crisis center and out of 107 employees only 4 are men. We have found that the men who do work there really get what we do but it can be uncomfortable at first when dealing with domestic violence, rape, and child abuse.
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Post by rst on Feb 7, 2016 17:48:03 GMT
In the case of dental hygenists, maybe one small part of the reason would be physical. Women often have smaller hands, and that's an asset when you're working in someone's mouth. Sure, dentists have their hands in the mouth too, but the hygenist is spending time doing a cleaning or is assisting a dentist and needing to keep out of the way and minimize the space they take up.
As far as nursing, in our area, and in pediatrics, I see the gap closing rapidly. When my son was in-patient for half a year, he had roughly 40 % male nurses. Our statistics may be skewed in that he is a teen male patient who requires full transfers, so the charge nurses may have been assigning more males to him, but overall I do see a lot of male nurses and nurse practitioners, which I think is great.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 7, 2016 18:00:14 GMT
Many of those positions are seen as subservient or supporting for example a dental hygienist is seen as subservient to or supporting of to the dentist.
I wonder if men still feel uncomfortable being in that sort of role?
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Feb 7, 2016 18:13:20 GMT
Gennifer nailed it. Men are often very insecure about liking things (not just jobs, but hobbies and other interests) that others, especially male Others, consider female/not-male. I see male students of all ages demonstrate these anxieties. The fact that their moms are brain surgeons doesn't matter a whit. I think the social censures come from people OUTSIDE the female professions for men and INSIDE the male professions for women. These days, I think the former is worse than the latter. And the self-censoring problems are much, much worse for men than women.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 18:22:16 GMT
Because it's more difficult to support a family on the lower wage position of hygienist?
Men tend to gravitate towards careers where they will be competitive w other men, not women?
Because the time/educational dollar investment in the hygienist position is less than that for a dentist?
Because women tend to want to have a career *and* a family and the hygienist position allows that more easily than the dentist position does?
To me, this is an interesting "big picture" anthropological question to which there can be many answers.
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Post by Karmady on Feb 7, 2016 18:44:47 GMT
tincin, you are amazing. Good for you for not putting up with the crap. I was specifically talking about female dominated positions that are in demand and pay well. Why aren't men entering these occupations? It used to be that way in teaching. It was predominantly female but that has changed. Teaching is not a good career to enter at this time in Ontario. There are thousands of unemployed teachers here. I think the number is 25,000+ certified teachers that can't find employment. Males often don't enter them because the starting pay may seem good but there is a distinct lack of advancement over a 30 year career. Most women tend to be ok with the lack of advancement. As a group we aren't conditioned to think long term and where the job progresses upward. Males are much more likely to have had some level of "ambition" modeled for them.. the need to think long term about where this job leads for a career. A dentist can join a practice, develop a stand alone practice, be the head/developer for a group of new dentists. A dental hygienist will need to be hired by a dentist. That is the option. Women are more apt to think about flexibility for family life and not want to take on the responsibility/risk of owning a practice. In Ontario, a Registered Dental Hygienist can open their own independent practise to assess a patient’s teeth and provide dental hygiene care without the presence of a dentist. I see independent clinics opening up in town. So really, the sky is the limit if you open your own business. I have an old friend who has a university degree, went back to college for dental hygiene and now works for the government promoting dental health in schools. She does very well. Getting paid less than a dentist? Well, not everyone has the intellect to be a dentist. Looking at the 2014 statistics, the average Dental Hygienist in Ontario makes $42.96/hr. Surely, that has to be good enough for some men? ? It's certainly not a "lower" wage. Lower than a dentist, yes. My dd works at a hipster coffee bar at night during the summer and the place is filled with men/women around 30 yrs with BA's working as baristas and making sandwiches for $12/hr because they can't find a job.
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Post by maryland on Feb 7, 2016 19:00:16 GMT
I know that the numbers are low in the trades sectors because of discrimination. You can hardly get hired if you are a female or non-white. I was one of the first women in trades where I work and it was not easy. I still hear how I don't belong here, 37 years later. There were quite a few women who simply couldn't take the continual harassment and quit. Screw that, I wasn't giving up the money or the benefits because some neanderthal thought I didn't deserve a good paying job. The discrimination is institutionalized. Tools, clothing, safety equipment, are all designed to fit men and women have to make due. It's a constant battle. Part of it is the specific plant I work for in the corporation, part of it is the corporation, and part of it is the manufacturers of equipment and clothing. As for men seeking traditional women's careers, most careers dominated by women do not pay well. Daycare providers, waitressing, housekeeping, hairdressing, cooking, secretarial work, etc., men don't want to do it because it is tough work and the pay is not great. I learned a lot from your post. I love to hear about men and women in jobs dominated by the opposite gender. I thought that that was also a reason why less women were in traditional men's careers, because tough work (window cleaners on skyscrapers, road workers, etc.). I never really thought that women may have wanted these careers, but they were discriminated against. I hope that changes and both genders can work in these very important jobs. I really admire you for what you have done for females in your trade! Thank you for what you are doing! My girls and I as well as my husband, always cheer when we see females driving tractor trailers, etc. And we love that there are several male nurses in our neighborhood! I used to work with a woman whose husband ran a preschool. Everyone loved him, and thought it was great to have a male in that field and his preschool had a long waiting list. I hope we continue to see more diversity in the workplace in every job!
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Post by tidegirl on Feb 7, 2016 19:23:51 GMT
All I know is that every high school and young college female is majoring in dental hygiene.
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Post by julieinsweden on Feb 7, 2016 20:46:48 GMT
As a 40 something female Engineer I've spent my life working with men.
I have always wondered if "we" are conditioning kids with our pink and blue. Until I had my own kids that is.
We had DS first. So the house was filled with cars and trains, the usual boy things. DD came along but we didn't really get any toys for her. She was quite happy playing with DS cars... Or at least we thought. But one day when she was just crawling we went to a play group. Where she made a beeline for the dolls corner. She picked them up cuddled them, nursed them fed, them. At 8 months old she showed that there is a huge biological element to our choices in profession.
DD is now 4 and a real pink girly girl.....I really don't understand where she gets it from..... Because I would not be seen dead in pink or glitter.
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Post by melanell on Feb 7, 2016 20:58:54 GMT
I think we often plant, even unwittingly, the ideas in the heads of our children, too, that certain careers are for one gender or another. How often do we suggest to our boys that they can be a nurse when they grow up? Or a dental hygienist? And not because we don't think it would be a great career for them, but just because we never thought of it. I have 2 boys. They have each gone to the same pediatric dental office twice a year since they were babies. They have never seen one male working there. Every single employee is a woman. And that never even dawned on me until I read this post. So if my boys only see women there, and I have never thought to specifically point out that they could be a dental hygienist, then they may very well be under the impression that men can't or don't do that for some reason. Now, DS #1 sees a male orthodontist. But he's the only male working there. Every other employee is a woman. And that same son is just going to switch over to a regular (non-pediatric) office now for his regular cleanings, and there are both male and female dentists there, but again, every hygienist and every member of the office staff is a woman. So at this point, his entire life has backed up the idea that a dental hygienist is not as career for a guy. And I never even realized that it was happening.
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Post by myboysnme on Feb 7, 2016 21:23:13 GMT
Professions that women were relegated to and limited to are still dominated by women. Men look at history and see these are women's professions. Women still do not always see themselves doing jobs/having careers that will interfere with having a family or one they will stay in after the marry and have kids. Men are not socialized to approach careers as something until they have a family.
You do not often see any male teachers at the Elementary School level unless they are the PE teacher. Of course it is likely the principal or vice principal will be male. Elementary school teachers are generalists and middle and high school teachers specialize in a certain subject. An elementary school teacher will say what grade they teach while the middle and high will say what subject. In fact, teachers and nurses had to be single originally. They could not work after they got married. Beyond 8th grade was not compulsory - it was more prestigious so of course men taught at those 'advanced' levels. Who does the home schooling now? Women.
Social workers are predominately female but psychologists are predominately male. Social work pay is very low in comparison to a psychologist.
Typically, if you look any traditional female dominated career you will find a man at the top. Social workers are women, but heads of social service agencies are male. Nurses are women, but the hospital administrator will be male. Teachers are women, but it is likely the principal will be male. Paralegals are women but the attorneys will likely be male. Secretaries are women typically working for men. In the military ad politics look at the highest echelons and you will find women working for men.
Women rarely realize how socialized they are to a subservient role. When you see an infant in a bathing suit at the pool, does she have on a suit that covers her non existent breasts? Because from birth she is taught to cover those up. But then we wonder why many people have a problem with having them exposed for breast feeding. So we put little girls in dresses and tell them how pretty they are and what a princess (and do princesses have jobs?) and then tell them to keep their dress down if they pull it up? And never let a boy see your panties, except I have a dress on so now I have to limit how I sit and what activities I do. Do we put them in cute little strap shoes instead of the sturdier shoes that their male counterparts are wearing?
Women are equal but we do not believe it, we do not hold ourselves to the standard of equal, and we hang on to all the aspects of womenhood that in history have made us feel special and important, like beauty, curves, heels, showing off our bodies (yes, wearing a dress is designed to show off a woman's body)m using our sexual selves to feel good about ourselves and entice and keep a mate( and then again, wondering why the fuss about breast feeding.)
We go into business but we open craft shops and dress shops, cleaning services and cupcakeries, but the big names in cooking and restaurants are men. How many chefs can people name right off their head and how many are women. How many hotel managers are men but the room cleaners are women?
On this issue there is much to be said and much work to be done, but my answer is ALWAYS... Follow the money. If you want to know why women dominate certain fields and men dominate others, follow them money.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Feb 7, 2016 21:25:06 GMT
tincin, you are amazing. Good for you for not putting up with the crap. I was specifically talking about female dominated positions that are in demand and pay well. Why aren't men entering these occupations? It used to be that way in teaching. It was predominantly female but that has changed. Teaching is not a good career to enter at this time in Ontario. There are thousands of unemployed teachers here. I think the number is 25,000+ certified teachers that can't find employment. Males often don't enter them because the starting pay may seem good but there is a distinct lack of advancement over a 30 year career. Most women tend to be ok with the lack of advancement. As a group we aren't conditioned to think long term and where the job progresses upward. Males are much more likely to have had some level of "ambition" modeled for them.. the need to think long term about where this job leads for a career. A dentist can join a practice, develop a stand alone practice, be the head/developer for a group of new dentists. A dental hygienist will need to be hired by a dentist. That is the option. Women are more apt to think about flexibility for family life and not want to take on the responsibility/risk of owning a practice. Most women tend to be ok with he lack of advancement. Just think about that for awhile. I really want to argue with you that you are wrong. But I think you are correct. I wonder if our daughters are being taught that. But I completely disagree with the Women do not want to take on the responsibility/risk of owning a practice. I just looked up the numbers, 36% of businesses in the US are women owned. And 42% of the private medical practices in the US are women owned. SO while the numbers aren't 50/50 when you consider 26% of women choose to not enter the paid work force the numbers aren't quite so alarming. I think the point that women think in terms of jobs, and not long term career advancement speaks volumes. I work with small business owners, and I think a lot of women want to own their own business because they are looking for flexibility, and the ability to create and control the culture of their business. To the OP's question, I think that men don't go into women dominated professions because they will some how be seen as lesser men! The teaching profession is a great example, it was dominated by men until sometime in the late 19th century. As the field became more and more dominated by women, pay decreased as compared to other professional careers, as did prestige and desirability. I see some positive changes, I see more men entering nursing, and more women becoming doctors, I also see more men becoming school teachers, particularly in the elementary grades, and more women professors. I hope my daughter does not have to have conversations like this when she is my age. I am sorta of over it all.
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Post by maryland on Feb 7, 2016 21:52:34 GMT
As a 40 something female Engineer I've spent my life working with men. I have always wondered if "we" are conditioning kids with our pink and blue. Until I had my own kids that is. We had DS first. So the house was filled with cars and trains, the usual boy things. DD came along but we didn't really get any toys for her. She was quite happy playing with DS cars... Or at least we thought. But one day when she was just crawling we went to a play group. Where she made a beeline for the dolls corner. She picked them up cuddled them, nursed them fed, them. At 8 months old she showed that there is a huge biological element to our choices in profession. DD is now 4 and a real pink girly girl.....I really don't understand where she gets it from..... Because I would not be seen dead in pink or glitter. It's so interesting to see what toys the kids enjoy! We have 3 girls, so we had mostly girl toys. When we had our friends over that have three boys, they were so entertained with all of the girl toys. They played with the kitchen, dollhouse, etc. as they don't have those toys at home. The parents were amazed at how much they love the girl toys and are so well behaved at our house. My poor nephew has an older sister, so lots of girl toys in the house. He preferred the girls toys because that is what he was used to. Well, when he was 2, my brother got him a train set for Christmas. My brother was so happy because he loved playing with trains as a kid. Well, my nephew had no interest in the trains because he wanted to play Disney princess with his sister and 3 female cousins! My girls are not into babysitting and nurturing type activities (except with pets, they love to walk dogs and play with dogs). They are older now, and my two teen girls are more into the sciences. I really hope my oldest, 18, a college freshman, considers biomedical engineering. Her school is really pushing engineering for the girls.
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Post by myboysnme on Feb 7, 2016 22:18:49 GMT
I have 2 boys and the oldest got a kitchen set for his second Christmas. He enjoys cooking as an adult. When we went to yard sales he sometimes chose a Barbie and sometimes a truck. Both he and his brother got cabbage patch babies from their older cousin when they were born. We had strollers and tool sets, ironing boards, and cozy coupes. Oldest DS chose a white stuffed bear with a pink tutu from a basket at his babysitter's house and called it Snow White and carried it for a long time. I dressed them in whatever color = peach and rose and blue and purple and orange and yellow. No one ever thought they were girls nor did they feel like girls. Younger DS preferred athletic clothes but if it was yellow and had a football on it he loved it.
What came of this in our case was both are now men - one is looking at a military career and one works with profoundly disabled little children. Neither has any interest in dressing femininely nor did playing with dolls 'make them gay.' They both have very definate ideas about males and females - the result was not that they don't see differences. They just don't equate clothing colors or domestic chores as inherently male or female. They never had a mom at home all day - I always had a job so they both want women with careers. They love animals and are socially, politically and environmentally informed and active.
Did gender specific toys make an impact? I think it was a very small factor. Just like a child can make a gun or a doll from a stick, depending on their preference and imagination, toys are just one part of the socialization process. It is the messages that others give to the toys that determine how they will be viewed. The infant that gravitated to a doll went to what she knew. This is not biological, it is social. She gravitates to that which is familiar to her and comforting. Seeing a baby doll and knowing to hold it and act nurturing can be a male or female act, depending how the child is being socialized. I have photos of my son with a breast pump, feeding a doll his own bottle, and pushing a doll in a stroller. They imitate. Men and women can be nurturing to babies and it does not determine their career choice.
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tincin
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Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
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Post by tincin on Feb 7, 2016 22:19:58 GMT
maryland thank you. It has been easier as I have gained the respect of most of the men I work with but it always pisses me off that if a new man arrives, he is automatically given the same respect that I have to earn. I am at the point of my career that I am thinking about retiring but it has been a journey for sure. I hope that some day these choices are a given, not something that has to be demanded and fought for. @jrussel thank you as well. Like another poster said, I followed the money. I wanted to make the most money I could in the least amount of time. I never wanted to depend on someone else to support me. It's a good thing I did too because I found myself at 45 divorced and supporting myself. As difficult as that was, I can't imagine how much harder it would have been, had I not be able to pay my bills.
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Post by Karmady on Feb 7, 2016 22:57:40 GMT
Tincin, I so agree. Everyone should have a plan B. I have a great relationship with my dh, no complaints but I've always have a contingency plan, mostly in case something happens to him. Now, DS #1 sees a male orthodontist. But he's the only male working there. Every other employee is a woman. And that same son is just going to switch over to a regular (non-pediatric) office now for his regular cleanings, and there are both male and female dentists there, but again, every hygienist and every member of the office staff is a woman. So at this point, his entire life has backed up the idea that a dental hygienist is not as career for a guy. And I never even realized that it was happening. So true. My son's always had a female Hygienist but his Orthodonist is a female. His dentist is male but now his daughter has joined the practice.
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Post by maryland on Feb 8, 2016 0:01:41 GMT
I have 2 boys and the oldest got a kitchen set for his second Christmas. He enjoys cooking as an adult. When we went to yard sales he sometimes chose a Barbie and sometimes a truck. Both he and his brother got cabbage patch babies from their older cousin when they were born. We had strollers and tool sets, ironing boards, and cozy coupes. Oldest DS chose a white stuffed bear with a pink tutu from a basket at his babysitter's house and called it Snow White and carried it for a long time. I dressed them in whatever color = peach and rose and blue and purple and orange and yellow. No one ever thought they were girls nor did they feel like girls. Younger DS preferred athletic clothes but if it was yellow and had a football on it he loved it. What came of this in our case was both are now men - one is looking at a military career and one works with profoundly disabled little children. Neither has any interest in dressing femininely nor did playing with dolls 'make them gay.' They both have very definate ideas about males and females - the result was not that they don't see differences. They just don't equate clothing colors or domestic chores as inherently male or female. They never had a mom at home all day - I always had a job so they both want women with careers. They love animals and are socially, politically and environmentally informed and active. Did gender specific toys make an impact? I think it was a very small factor. Just like a child can make a gun or a doll from a stick, depending on their preference and imagination, toys are just one part of the socialization process. It is the messages that others give to the toys that determine how they will be viewed. The infant that gravitated to a doll went to what she knew. This is not biological, it is social. She gravitates to that which is familiar to her and comforting. Seeing a baby doll and knowing to hold it and act nurturing can be a male or female act, depending how the child is being socialized. I have photos of my son with a breast pump, feeding a doll his own bottle, and pushing a doll in a stroller. They imitate. Men and women can be nurturing to babies and it does not determine their career choice. I love your post! We wanted to raise our girls to enjoy all different activities, toys, etc. and wanted them to be well rounded. They are pre-teens/teens and they much prefer outdoor chores to indoor chores. So the girls and I all argue over who gets to mow, we all want to mow. Same with shoveling the snow. My husband chooses and plants the flowers. So we all enjoy different activities and we could care less if they are stereotypical male or female. Your sons sound like they will make great husbands someday and I hope I raised my girls to make wonderful wives (if that's what they chose)!
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Post by myboysnme on Feb 8, 2016 1:09:25 GMT
I have 2 boys and the oldest got a kitchen set for his second Christmas. He enjoys cooking as an adult. When we went to yard sales he sometimes chose a Barbie and sometimes a truck. Both he and his brother got cabbage patch babies from their older cousin when they were born. We had strollers and tool sets, ironing boards, and cozy coupes. Oldest DS chose a white stuffed bear with a pink tutu from a basket at his babysitter's house and called it Snow White and carried it for a long time. I dressed them in whatever color = peach and rose and blue and purple and orange and yellow. No one ever thought they were girls nor did they feel like girls. Younger DS preferred athletic clothes but if it was yellow and had a football on it he loved it. What came of this in our case was both are now men - one is looking at a military career and one works with profoundly disabled little children. Neither has any interest in dressing femininely nor did playing with dolls 'make them gay.' They both have very definate ideas about males and females - the result was not that they don't see differences. They just don't equate clothing colors or domestic chores as inherently male or female. They never had a mom at home all day - I always had a job so they both want women with careers. They love animals and are socially, politically and environmentally informed and active. Did gender specific toys make an impact? I think it was a very small factor. Just like a child can make a gun or a doll from a stick, depending on their preference and imagination, toys are just one part of the socialization process. It is the messages that others give to the toys that determine how they will be viewed. The infant that gravitated to a doll went to what she knew. This is not biological, it is social. She gravitates to that which is familiar to her and comforting. Seeing a baby doll and knowing to hold it and act nurturing can be a male or female act, depending how the child is being socialized. I have photos of my son with a breast pump, feeding a doll his own bottle, and pushing a doll in a stroller. They imitate. Men and women can be nurturing to babies and it does not determine their career choice. I love your post! We wanted to raise our girls to enjoy all different activities, toys, etc. and wanted them to be well rounded. They are pre-teens/teens and they much prefer outdoor chores to indoor chores. So the girls and I all argue over who gets to mow, we all want to mow. Same with shoveling the snow. My husband chooses and plants the flowers. So we all enjoy different activities and we could care less if they are stereotypical male or female. Your sons sound like they will make great husbands someday and I hope I raised my girls to make wonderful wives (if that's what they chose)! This is the nicest thing I have heard ever. You have no idea. Thank you!
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Post by lisacharlotte on Feb 8, 2016 1:12:58 GMT
I'm going to put some of this on women. As an example, recently on a FB group women were complaining about people giving a thumbs down to videos and how mean that is and how we should all encourage and only thumbs up or just turn it off if we don't like the video. As long as women are going to represent ourselves as too fragile to handle a thumbs down we can forget getting men to take us seriously in the important areas of life, like a career.
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