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Post by julieinsweden on Feb 18, 2016 21:17:51 GMT
I wonder if the FBI even need to get into the phone. My conspiracy theory is that this big news story is just to get terrorist cells rattled and making "mistakes" that would cause their demise.
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Feb 18, 2016 21:41:02 GMT
Apple does not have a back door. No reputable phone company does or would ever. There is not one for a very good reason. If it existed, others could hack into it. It's a huge security flaw to have a back door to any OS. Even if only one person had the "keys" code to be able to get into your OS, others would figure it out. It would just be a matter of time. Thus why security is such a big deal. Hackers go looking for loop holes and back doors to exploit them. Programmers spend a lot of time closing those holes. No company that wants their customers data to be secure would allow for a back door to their programming. This is a terrible precedent if allowed. I have been thinking about this more and wondered about how it would impact online banking and banking apps and Apple Pay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 1:54:09 GMT
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Post by RiverIsis on Feb 19, 2016 2:35:06 GMT
If you have twitter Edward Snowden has posted some quite interesting tweets on this.
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Post by Really Red on Feb 19, 2016 2:45:25 GMT
Hmm. I don't have secrets and if I did, I wouldn't keep them on my phone. That cloud is something else.
I'm all for the back door.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 5:36:21 GMT
Hmm. I don't have secrets and if I did, I wouldn't keep them on my phone. That cloud is something else. I'm all for the back door. This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition.
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Post by DinCA on Feb 19, 2016 5:42:18 GMT
Hmm. I don't have secrets and if I did, I wouldn't keep them on my phone. That cloud is something else. I'm all for the back door. This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition. I don't have a fully formed opinion about this but I have been wondering today what the difference is between the information on one's phone and/or what's on one's computer. A computer can be seized by law enforcement and is also susceptible to hacking but we don't generally worry so much about that nor do we have a problem when law enforcement seizes them. Why should the phone be treated differently? The phone is essentially a computer not much different from a laptop. ETA: And I'm asking you, @busypea , because I think of you as our resident tech pea.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 6:13:19 GMT
This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition. I don't have a fully formed opinion about this but I have been wondering today what the difference is between the information on one's phone and/or what's on one's computer. A computer can be seized by law enforcement and is also susceptible to hacking but we don't generally worry so much about that nor do we have a problem when law enforcement seizes them. Why should the phone be treated differently? The phone is essentially a computer not much different from a laptop. ETA: And I'm asking you, @busypea , because I think of you as our resident tech pea. Well, sure, they can seize computers and if law enforcement can access the information, they can use it in criminal cases. But they can't always access it because computer owners can put extremely sophisticated encryption and other security software on there that basically render a computer unhackable. To my knowledge, the federal government has never asked Microsoft, Apple, or another computer OS developer to build a new OS that would somehow bypass that kind of security. So, I turn the question around... what's different about phones that it's now reasonable to compel development of a customized OS to bypass security?
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Post by DinCA on Feb 19, 2016 8:18:57 GMT
I don't have a fully formed opinion about this but I have been wondering today what the difference is between the information on one's phone and/or what's on one's computer. A computer can be seized by law enforcement and is also susceptible to hacking but we don't generally worry so much about that nor do we have a problem when law enforcement seizes them. Why should the phone be treated differently? The phone is essentially a computer not much different from a laptop. ETA: And I'm asking you, @busypea , because I think of you as our resident tech pea. Well, sure, they can seize computers and if law enforcement can access the information, they can use it in criminal cases. But they can't always access it because computer owners can put extremely sophisticated encryption and other security software on there that basically render a computer unhackable. To my knowledge, the federal government has never asked Microsoft, Apple, or another computer OS developer to build a new OS that would somehow bypass that kind of security. So, I turn the question around... what's different about phones that it's now reasonable to compel development of a customized OS to bypass security? I can't say that it is reasonable. As someone whose phone and computer contain virtually the same information, it just makes me wonder why it's okay to seize information from one and not the other. And I'm not sure I believe that Apple doesn't have a back door already. At the very least, they have to know where to look for it or where the IOS is vulnerable, neither of which they would advertise. That said, I agree with both sides of the argument so I am unable to defend one or the other but it will be an interesting case to watch.
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Post by jennyap on Feb 19, 2016 8:31:14 GMT
Well, sure, they can seize computers and if law enforcement can access the information, they can use it in criminal cases. I can't say that it is reasonable. As someone whose phone and computer contain virtually the same information, it just makes me wonder why it's okay to seize information from one and not the other. [ I don't think that's what anyone is saying. The argument is that it is okay to seize information from both computers and phones, to the extent which lawmakers are able to access it. As someone not in the US, the idea that the US government might be able to compel the creation of a backdoor which could IMO lead to increased vulnerability for iPhone users worldwide pisses me off.
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Post by Really Red on Feb 19, 2016 10:52:25 GMT
Hmm. I don't have secrets and if I did, I wouldn't keep them on my phone. That cloud is something else. I'm all for the back door. This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition. I have passwords on my apps, so that would not be part of my phone's information, FYI, in case you think people can get into your "mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information." That is to say if I want to get into my bank, the BANK has barriers. So all the sites you mentioned are NOT PART OF YOUR PHONE. Those sites have barriers that the Feds can get into if they want (at present). So that certainly is not a reason for privacy on my phone. "Hundreds of millions of people" are at an "increased risk?" I'm not quite sure you know how all this works. I use my phone for everything you do, plus texting, calling and storing phone numbers. I don't think I saw particularly WHY the Feds want to get in the phone, but I'm guessing to get texts and contacts. If anyone wants to read my texts, they can. I'm not trying to topple governments or kill, hurt or ever be mean to people. I'm not implying you are and I don't think they should be reading your texts either, but I think the Federal Government has the right to get into this phone. Not yours. This one. I understand the warnings and the problems and the open "back door," but if honestly, if you don't think that pretty much anyone can spy on you everywhere, you may not be fully aware of the technology that currently exists.
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,095
Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Feb 19, 2016 11:17:59 GMT
I can't say that it is reasonable. As someone whose phone and computer contain virtually the same information, it just makes me wonder why it's okay to seize information from one and not the other. [ I don't think that's what anyone is saying. The argument is that it is okay to seize information from both computers and phones, to the extent which lawmakers are able to access it. As someone not in the US, the idea that the US government might be able to compel the creation of a backdoor which could IMO lead to increased vulnerability for iPhone users worldwide pisses me off. As it should. And I guarantee if this were China making this demand everyone in the US would lose their damn minds about how China has no business compromising their privacy to find out what a criminal has on their phone.
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,095
Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Feb 19, 2016 11:23:45 GMT
This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition. I have passwords on my apps, so that would not be part of my phone's information, FYI, in case you think people can get into your "mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information." That is to say if I want to get into my bank, the BANK has barriers. So all the sites you mentioned are NOT PART OF YOUR PHONE. Those sites have barriers that the Feds can get into if they want (at present). So that certainly is not a reason for privacy on my phone. "Hundreds of millions of people" are at an "increased risk?" I'm not quite sure you know how all this works. I use my phone for everything you do, plus texting, calling and storing phone numbers. I don't think I saw particularly WHY the Feds want to get in the phone, but I'm guessing to get texts and contacts. If anyone wants to read my texts, they can. I'm not trying to topple governments or kill, hurt or ever be mean to people. I'm not implying you are and I don't think they should be reading your texts either, but I think the Federal Government has the right to get into this phone. Not yours. This one. I understand the warnings and the problems and the open "back door," but if honestly, if you don't think that pretty much anyone can spy on you everywhere, you may not be fully aware of the technology that currently exists. Do you think that the US government has the right to compel corporations to create new product to help them do something? They aren't going to pay for this product. I'll let @busypea address the more technical side of this question, but I'm curious about how you feel about the above.
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Post by DinCA on Feb 19, 2016 12:42:49 GMT
As someone not in the US, the idea that the US government might be able to compel the creation of a backdoor which could IMO lead to increased vulnerability for iPhone users worldwide pisses me off. I can certainly understand why it would be upsetting to users outside the US. I'm sure that's just one of the many reasons that Apple is fighting it.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 13:05:47 GMT
I've puzzled about this since the news broke, but I come down on the side of Apple -- that the government should not be able to compel a business, at its own expense no less, to create anything. It pains me that there might be terrorist info in that phone (or any device in the future) that we won't get to, but the implications of the first outweigh the second for me.
That said, I have a feeling the government will eventually get their way in this. I hope I'm wrong.
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tuesdaysgone
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,832
Jun 26, 2014 18:26:03 GMT
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Post by tuesdaysgone on Feb 19, 2016 13:34:03 GMT
I stand with Apple 100% Compared to the proverbial "yesteryear," we have much less privacy in our lives today and we need to fiercely guard what we do have. I may not have anything to hide in my home or on my phone, but that doesn't mean I want the government to have access to either, even in the name of national security.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Feb 19, 2016 13:46:17 GMT
I side with Apple 100%, and think that the FBI is completely overstepping their bounds.
The one thing that I question, is it not possible to get the passcode to this one phone (through the phone's ID)? I would think that would take care of the whole situation, but I guess if they ask for (and receive) one that would create a slippery slope to asking for others. In some weird way (that is probably missing a big detail) just getting the passcode would avoid the backdoor that is just bad all around.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 14:37:46 GMT
This way of thinking drives me crazy. I don't have any "secrets" either, but I do use mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information. And so what if people do have secrets? They are certainly entitled to. The federal government wanting phone developers to make their products less secure so they are easier for the feds to break into also makes them easier for bad actors to infiltrate. Hundreds of millions of people should not be put at increased risk for their private information being compromised for a fishing expedition. I have passwords on my apps, so that would not be part of my phone's information, FYI, in case you think people can get into your "mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information." That is to say if I want to get into my bank, the BANK has barriers. So all the sites you mentioned are NOT PART OF YOUR PHONE. Those sites have barriers that the Feds can get into if they want (at present). So that certainly is not a reason for privacy on my phone. "Hundreds of millions of people" are at an "increased risk?" I'm not quite sure you know how all this works. I use my phone for everything you do, plus texting, calling and storing phone numbers. I don't think I saw particularly WHY the Feds want to get in the phone, but I'm guessing to get texts and contacts. If anyone wants to read my texts, they can. I'm not trying to topple governments or kill, hurt or ever be mean to people. I'm not implying you are and I don't think they should be reading your texts either, but I think the Federal Government has the right to get into this phone. Not yours. This one. I understand the warnings and the problems and the open "back door," but if honestly, if you don't think that pretty much anyone can spy on you everywhere, you may not be fully aware of the technology that currently exists. No, I don't know quite how it all works and I'm fairly sure you don't either. There are only a relatively small handful of experts who truly do. I do know that building a security flaw into OS that one group can exploit (the FBI) by definition is giving those with nefarious intent the same backdoor that they can learn to exploit, and sooner or later, they will figure out how to do it. Over 1 billion iPhones have been sold and lessening their security could potential affect all of those people. And I'll just ignore all your implications that I'm some stupid Rube who doesn't understand technology. I am not an expert but I'm also not an idiot.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 14:40:12 GMT
I side with Apple 100%, and think that the FBI is completely overstepping their bounds. The one thing that I question, is it not possible to get the passcode to this one phone (through the phone's ID)? I would think that would take care of the whole situation, but I guess if they ask for (and receive) one that would create a slippery slope to asking for others. In some weird way (that is probably missing a big detail) just getting the passcode would avoid the backdoor that is just bad all around. No, it's not, because the passcode is not something that's stored on Apple's servers or anywhere else. It's strictly on the phone, so the phone/iOS built in security has to be defeated. To modify the software in order to defeat it without risking erasing the data on the phone, Apple is essentially creating a way the same thing could potentially be done on any iPhone.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 19, 2016 14:40:32 GMT
I have passwords on my apps, so that would not be part of my phone's information, FYI, in case you think people can get into your "mobile banking, my medical/insurance provider's app, work email, personal email, and many other apps that include PRIVATE information." That is to say if I want to get into my bank, the BANK has barriers. So all the sites you mentioned are NOT PART OF YOUR PHONE. Those sites have barriers that the Feds can get into if they want (at present). So that certainly is not a reason for privacy on my phone. "Hundreds of millions of people" are at an "increased risk?" I'm not quite sure you know how all this works. I use my phone for everything you do, plus texting, calling and storing phone numbers. I don't think I saw particularly WHY the Feds want to get in the phone, but I'm guessing to get texts and contacts. If anyone wants to read my texts, they can. I'm not trying to topple governments or kill, hurt or ever be mean to people. I'm not implying you are and I don't think they should be reading your texts either, but I think the Federal Government has the right to get into this phone. Not yours. This one. I understand the warnings and the problems and the open "back door," but if honestly, if you don't think that pretty much anyone can spy on you everywhere, you may not be fully aware of the technology that currently exists. Do you think that the US government has the right to compel corporations to create new product to help them do something? They aren't going to pay for this product. I'll let @busypea address the more technical side of this question, but I'm curious about how you feel about the above. That's absolutely not true. Part of the court ruling as that Apple needed to provide an estimate of the cost.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Feb 19, 2016 14:41:51 GMT
I side with Apple 100%, and think that the FBI is completely overstepping their bounds. The one thing that I question, is it not possible to get the passcode to this one phone (through the phone's ID)? I would think that would take care of the whole situation, but I guess if they ask for (and receive) one that would create a slippery slope to asking for others. In some weird way (that is probably missing a big detail) just getting the passcode would avoid the backdoor that is just bad all around. No, it's not, because the passcode is not something that's stored on Apple's servers or anywhere else. It's strictly on the phone, so the phone/iOS built in security has to be defeated. To modify the software in order to defeat it without risking erasing the data on the phone, Apple is essentially creating a way the same thing could potentially be done on any iPhone. That's what I was wondering as I wasn't completely sure how it would be stored/created/etc. I am by no means saying that they should give the code, I was just musing out loud if that could be a possible compromise but even as I was writing it out it didn't seem to be a good idea. I really appreciate the explanation. I had been meaning to research my thoughts before saying anything, but I've had a lot going on.
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Post by RiverIsis on Feb 19, 2016 14:43:03 GMT
I saw a quick snippet yesterday about them now wanting to "talk" to U2 about how they managed to get their album on every Apple device ever created... I didn't really know whether to take that blurb seriously or not, because I'm certainly hoping there is a difference between iTunes and iPhones. I didn't catch the source so maybe it was an Onion type site.
FWIW I'm leaning towards Apple on this. One of the reasons is TBH, I know that several of my son's engineering friends have government co-ops and even continue that work whilst they finish school. As he says, it can get funny when they talk about a deadline or having the day off but aren't allowed to tell you who they work for but it just happens to follow the Federal Holiday schedule. So I feel, TBH, the FBI needs to try harder, they have ample resources and can easily recruit more. Maybe there is a reason they are being public about this. On the face of it, I think it is a lot a bother for what is probably little reward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 14:43:36 GMT
No, it's not, because the passcode is not something that's stored on Apple's servers or anywhere else. It's strictly on the phone, so the phone/iOS built in security has to be defeated. To modify the software in order to defeat it without risking erasing the data on the phone, Apple is essentially creating a way the same thing could potentially be done on any iPhone. That's what I was wondering as I wasn't completely sure how it would be stored/created/etc. I am by no means saying that they should give the code, I was just musing out loud if that could be a possible compromise but even as I was writing it out it didn't seem to be a good idea. I really appreciate the explanation. I had been meaning to research my thoughts before saying anything, but I've had a lot going on. I don't know all the technical ins and outs of it, but know quite a number of iOS developers and that's what they've said. They're certainly in a position to know, so I believe them. Of course, the way I've stated it is a gross simplification
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 19, 2016 14:45:31 GMT
I side with Apple 100%, and think that the FBI is completely overstepping their bounds. The one thing that I question, is it not possible to get the passcode to this one phone (through the phone's ID)? I would think that would take care of the whole situation, but I guess if they ask for (and receive) one that would create a slippery slope to asking for others. In some weird way (that is probably missing a big detail) just getting the passcode would avoid the backdoor that is just bad all around. No, it's not, because the passcode is not something that's stored on Apple's servers or anywhere else. It's strictly on the phone, so the phone/iOS built in security has to be defeated. To modify the software in order to defeat it without risking erasing the data on the phone, Apple is essentially creating a way the same thing could potentially be done on any iPhone. There's two parts though of the government ask. Removing the feature that erases all data when 10 wrong passcodes are entered is really just bringing the ios back to the last generation - that is a brand new feature that was added - I think calling that a backdoor is misguided - no one considered it a back door a few months ago. Have you turned that feature on in your phone? I haven't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 14:50:40 GMT
No, it's not, because the passcode is not something that's stored on Apple's servers or anywhere else. It's strictly on the phone, so the phone/iOS built in security has to be defeated. To modify the software in order to defeat it without risking erasing the data on the phone, Apple is essentially creating a way the same thing could potentially be done on any iPhone. There's two parts though of the government ask. Removing the feature that erases all data when 10 wrong passcodes are entered is really just bringing the ios back to the last generation - that is a brand new feature that was added - I think calling that a backdoor is misguided - no one considered it a back door a few months ago. Have you turned that feature on in your phone? I haven't. You could set your iPhone to erase all data after 10 incorrect passcode entries as far back as 2009. I have always had it enabled on my primary phone. www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2009/09/iphone-passcode-lock.htm
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:47:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 15:00:50 GMT
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 19, 2016 15:23:13 GMT
There's two parts though of the government ask. Removing the feature that erases all data when 10 wrong passcodes are entered is really just bringing the ios back to the last generation - that is a brand new feature that was added - I think calling that a backdoor is misguided - no one considered it a back door a few months ago. Have you turned that feature on in your phone? I haven't. You could set your iPhone to erase all data after 10 incorrect passcode entries as far back as 2009. I have always had it enabled on my primary phone. www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2009/09/iphone-passcode-lock.htmYour link doesn't work, but I found a different article. I swear there's as much bad information on this subject as good. Many articles have mentioned the auto wipe at 10 attempts as being part of the ios9 upgrade with the move to a 6 digit passcode. Whether it was a new default instead of an option, more highly publicized with the other security upgrades or people just weren't aware - who knows. Something must have changed though as clearly Apple was able to break the passcodes previously without deleting the data - this article discusses that they've unlocked 70 phones for law enforcement (with warrants) since 2008. mashable.com/2016/02/17/how-apple-could-hack-iphone/#wLwHtCS45ZqT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 15:58:56 GMT
Your link doesn't work, but I found a different article. I swear there's as much bad information on this subject as good. Many articles have mentioned the auto wipe at 10 attempts as being part of the ios9 upgrade with the move to a 6 digit passcode. Whether it was a new default instead of an option, more highly publicized with the other security upgrades or people just weren't aware - who knows. Something must have changed though as clearly Apple was able to break the passcodes previously without deleting the data - this article discusses that they've unlocked 70 phones for law enforcement (with warrants) since 2008. mashable.com/2016/02/17/how-apple-could-hack-iphone/#wLwHtCS45ZqT The NYT is apparently the source of that "70 unlocked phone" thing and they have since retracted that. Apple has helped extract data from those phones but did not unlock them. I think I linked that story above... The correction is at the very end.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Feb 19, 2016 17:17:44 GMT
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Post by whopea on Feb 19, 2016 17:25:16 GMT
There's two parts though of the government ask. Removing the feature that erases all data when 10 wrong passcodes are entered is really just bringing the ios back to the last generation - that is a brand new feature that was added - I think calling that a backdoor is misguided - no one considered it a back door a few months ago. Have you turned that feature on in your phone? I haven't. You could set your iPhone to erase all data after 10 incorrect passcode entries as far back as 2009. I have always had it enabled on my primary phone. www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2009/09/iphone-passcode-lock.htmI'm just curious, why would you have this set this way? I use findmyphone and know that I can wipe the phone clean if it's lost.
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