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Post by RiverIsis on Feb 18, 2016 22:26:04 GMT
It's all over the news about the couple expecting twins and the boy twin likely will not live. They are saying the ultrasound shows "Him" holding hands with his sister.
OK. Here is my question (and I have a few anatomy books here in the house so I don't consider myself stupid but maybe just ignorant on this point) I thought that boy/girl twins are by definition fraternal twins and would have different amniotic sacs and thus couldn't really hold hands. They are saying this wasn't any assisted fertilization. So color me confused.
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Post by Zee on Feb 18, 2016 22:34:21 GMT
Hmmm...interesting point. I think that fraternal twins can possibly develop in one sac under certain conditions but I'll be the first to admit that obstetrics isn't my thing. Dr Google, here I come!
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Post by myboysnme on Feb 18, 2016 22:37:14 GMT
I was wondering the exact same thing!
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Post by rst on Feb 18, 2016 22:37:27 GMT
You are correct that as they are fraternal, they would be in separate amniotic sacs. But maybe it helps to think of the sacs as less similar to two water filled balloons jammed next to each other with little interaction and more like, I don't know, mesh laundry bags in the washing machine. Terrible analogies, and since I don't know what the original story is actually about, I probably shouldn't even comment.
I had identical twin boys who were "almost" monoamniotic (shared the same sac, did share the same placenta-- not the case with all identical twins). They had a thin membrane between them which over the course of the pregnancy became full of holes, and was basically more like a net. They actually did kick one another in the face and come into physical contact, as ultrasounds showed.
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Gravity
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Jun 27, 2014 0:29:55 GMT
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Post by Gravity on Feb 18, 2016 22:39:06 GMT
I'm with you. I think monoamniotic twins are always identical. This also makes the pregnancy risky due to a high risk of cord accidents.
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Post by Zee on Feb 18, 2016 22:59:09 GMT
From what I can tell, it would be so rare that they'd be only the second or third documented case (that's just let my quick search), so either it's not true or perhaps is something more like rst said.
I haven't read the article mentioned in the OP, I've just seen it posted many times on Facebook.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Feb 18, 2016 23:01:34 GMT
That factoid alone made me assume the story was a big fake and I completely discounted the validity of it. It's nothing more than emotional manipulation.
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Post by papersilly on Feb 18, 2016 23:12:36 GMT
That factoid alone made me assume the story was a big fake and I completely discounted the validity of it. It's nothing more than emotional manipulation. i don't know about fake but definitely emotional manipulation. just like the stories of dogs who lay by and will not leave their masters or mates who pass away. if one baby will not survive, this will be the feel good aspect of that tragic story.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Feb 18, 2016 23:15:46 GMT
That factoid alone made me assume the story was a big fake and I completely discounted the validity of it. It's nothing more than emotional manipulation. i don't know about fake but definitely emotional manipulation. just like the stories of dogs who lay by and will not leave their masters or mates who pass away. if one baby will not survive, this will be the feel good aspect of that tragic story.
TI think I shut down these obvious emotional manipulation stories because until you mentioned it I didn't think there was a good aspect to the story. Just someone trying to get some fame or something by exploiting a tragic situation. But I'll admit, I'm very cynical about this kind of stuff. |
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Post by peasapie on Feb 18, 2016 23:18:31 GMT
You are correct that as they are fraternal, they would be in separate amniotic sacs. But maybe it helps to think of the sacs as less similar to two water filled balloons jammed next to each other with little interaction and more like, I don't know, mesh laundry bags in the washing machine. Terrible analogies, and since I don't know what the original story is actually about, I probably shouldn't even comment. I had identical twin boys who were "almost" monoamniotic (shared the same sac, did share the same placenta-- not the case with all identical twins). They had a thin membrane between them which over the course of the pregnancy became full of holes, and was basically more like a net. They actually did kick one another in the face and come into physical contact, as ultrasounds showed. My daughter's identicals were in the same sac and just separated by a membrane, too. But these in OP would not (obviously) be identical, so it does seem that they should, theoretically, be in two separate sacs. |
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Post by papersilly on Feb 18, 2016 23:32:56 GMT
i don't know about fake but definitely emotional manipulation. just like the stories of dogs who lay by and will not leave their masters or mates who pass away. if one baby will not survive, this will be the feel good aspect of that tragic story.
TI think I shut down these obvious emotional manipulation stories because until you mentioned it I didn't think there was a good aspect to the story. Just someone trying to get some fame or something by exploiting a tragic situation. But I'll admit, I'm very cynical about this kind of stuff. I'm super cynical too. to me, there isn't a good aspect to this story other than what people want to believe. are the babies holding hands as a physical reflex or is it really an emotional reaction by one twin towards another? my cynical self tends to think it's just a physical reflex caught at the right moment and the rest is just emotional spin. |
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Post by rst on Feb 18, 2016 23:46:46 GMT
I think the most likely interaction between twins is what my guys did-- kick one another in the face or incessant poking. They still do it, these 16 years later, lol.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Feb 19, 2016 0:57:51 GMT
It also may just look as though they are holding hands. It's not like it is a 3 D image. Even the so called 3D ultrasounds produce a 2D image. You are not looking at a hologram and cannot assess the space between the hands
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Feb 19, 2016 1:05:53 GMT
Also, the membrane is quite thin. Looking at the photo, it could easily be between the two hands, with one hand on top of the other, not really even touching
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Post by melanell on Feb 19, 2016 1:54:41 GMT
It also may just look as though they are holding hands. It's not like it is a 3 D image. Even the so called 3D ultrasounds produce a 2D image. You are not looking at a hologram and cannot assess the space between the hands This is what I thought when I saw it. It looked more like one hand lying just slightly in front of the other to me. But, you know what, if it can give the parents some consolation, then that's wonderful. I just almost wish that if that is true that they would have kept it to themselves & to family, because you put something out there like that and you know that you're going to get both positive and negative feedback, and I really wouldn't want negative feedback and something that was offering me even the tiniest speck of help through such a situation.  |
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keithurbanlovinpea
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Post by keithurbanlovinpea on Feb 19, 2016 2:05:21 GMT
I don't even see two hands when I see the photo. I felt a little like I was looking at the virgin Mary on a piece of toast.
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Post by hop2 on Feb 19, 2016 2:17:18 GMT
That factoid alone made me assume the story was a big fake and I completely discounted the validity of it. It's nothing more than emotional manipulation. i don't know about fake but definitely emotional manipulation. just like the stories of dogs who lay by and will not leave their masters or mates who pass away. if one baby will not survive, this will be the feel good aspect of that tragic story.
That does happen sometimes, we literally had to peel my mothers cat off her so the funeral home could take her and the cat howled for 3 days and was depressed for a year. |
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Feb 19, 2016 2:18:26 GMT
I agree. I do not see why this needed to be shared in the media, especially without discussion with people actually in the field. But this is the era we live in.
My FB newsfeed was FILLED with crap science today. I cannot tell you how many replies I've written and deleted today and how many I've just shook my head at.
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Post by Really Red on Feb 19, 2016 2:20:51 GMT
I don't know whether they are really holding hands, but I had dizygotic twins and they had one placenta as it grew together at some point. The doctor who delivered the girls told me they were absolutely identical, but they were (are) not. And just in case you want proof, they have different blood types.
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Post by RiverIsis on Feb 19, 2016 2:26:20 GMT
It also may just look as though they are holding hands. It's not like it is a 3 D image. Even the so called 3D ultrasounds produce a 2D image. You are not looking at a hologram and cannot assess the space between the hands This is what I thought when I saw it. It looked more like one hand lying just slightly in front of the other to me. But, you know what, if it can give the parents some consolation, then that's wonderful. I just almost wish that if that is true that they would have kept it to themselves & to family, because you put something out there like that and you know that you're going to get both positive and negative feedback, and I really wouldn't want negative feedback and something that was offering me even the tiniest speck of help through such a situation. Yeah, I'm ok with them having their consolation. I'm sure they will cherish those photos forever, I just hope they can focus on the beautiful children they do have. |
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Feb 19, 2016 3:44:17 GMT
I don't know whether they are really holding hands, but I had dizygotic twins and they had one placenta as it grew together at some point. Placentas will fuse. They very often do. There are two membranes layers to the "bag." Only in monozygotic monoanmniotic twins are the babies actually in the same sac. Only then can they really hold hands. This is actually a very dangerous situation because of cord complications. They are delivered early just because of this risk. Identical twins are more often monozygotic diamnotic, which means one outer layer but two sacs within. Fraternal twins are dizygotic diamnotic, so two sacs each with 2 layers. Still quite thin, but definitely separate. Even in these cases, the placentas can fuse to a degree but they are in two separate sacs. |
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on Feb 19, 2016 4:35:23 GMT
TI think I shut down these obvious emotional manipulation stories because until you mentioned it I didn't think there was a good aspect to the story. Just someone trying to get some fame or something by exploiting a tragic situation. But I'll admit, I'm very cynical about this kind of stuff. I'm super cynical too. to me, there isn't a good aspect to this story other than what people want to believe. are the babies holding hands as a physical reflex or is it really an emotional reaction by one twin towards another? my cynical self tends to think it's just a physical reflex caught at the right moment and the rest is just emotional spin. I will go further. They were honest stories report that the twins "appear" to be holding hands. This is a 2-D picture trying to capture life happening in 3-D.... And I seriously doubt that the female is trying to offer comfort to her dying twin as many stories report |
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Post by Patter on Feb 19, 2016 11:48:42 GMT
I was thinking that it may look like they are holding hands because the sacs are so very thin. And melissa said "Identical twins are more often monozygotic diamnotic, which means one outer layer but two sacs within." This is how my identical triplets were. Pathology showed the one outer sac with the three sacs inside. I have no idea about my mom and her identical twin. Not sure if they were in the same sac or not. Way back in the 1940s, not sure how much they looked at then. My sister's fraternal twins (boy/girl) were of course in separate sacs. |
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