Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
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Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Apr 3, 2016 20:54:17 GMT
Interesting. From this thread I've learned that the kidlet probably had red man syndrome from the vanco. She was red as a beet the one time she had it and I was told to make sure that she is never given that again. Also, I've had many blood draws with butterfly needles. Usually the best thing they can find is on the back of my hand right near a knuckle. It hurts like hell but it gets the job done.
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Post by cath4k on Apr 3, 2016 22:21:24 GMT
Ugh, I am sorry. I have nothing to do with medicine but was in a client-based profession, and while most clients were awesome, there were some that could drive you to drink. Well, in my case, they couldn't, because they had suspended driver's licenses, but you know what I mean. In defense of your patients, I am always up on Dr. Google about my symptoms. I have been a much better patient since it has been easy to look online for information. I can ask better questions, I understand what the professionals are telling me, and I come in more chill because I have a better idea of what is going on. And I unfortunately have a chronic illness that I only had diagnosed because after several years of seeing primary care physicians who did not understand what they were looking at, I self-referred to a specialist who did. I agree with you about all of this (except I didn't work with clients with suspended driver's licenses, lol). My back goes up when a doctor won't listen to me because I've done my research about something. I once had a doctor who was excited because I'd done my research - that's a doctor I want to go back to. I had to figure out my son's chronic illness all on my own. He's living a normal life right now because I found a doctor who would listen to me. I know my son's illness and issues better than anyone in the world. I don't google and think "cancer" right away, which is the common stereotype medical professionals like to use. I use Pubmed and Google Scholar and actually am able to think critically for myself. Also, at the rate medical policy and guidelines change - at a snail's pace - I'd rather keep current on new research myself rather than expect anyone else to do it. I've read recently that it takes on average 17 years for new research to be put into medical practice as policy. However, that's kind of off-track of the issue of nurses and IVs and all that here. I have a friend who's an ER nurse, quite senior in her (major, big city) hospital, and one time when we were drinking she decided to vent about her job and it made me see her very differently; I had a really hard time with it. She was complaining about patients coming to the ER after multiple suicide attempts, and old people coming in for various complaints, and she started getting loud and saying "die already! why are you at the ER? just die already!". It was really shocking to hear and I didn't know what to say. Then there was the time I was at a party and met a lady who was an Education Assistant for kids with special needs in one of our local schools. She was drunk and told me how she liked to do things to trigger outbursts in Autistic children and ODD children just to watch them "freak out". She laughed about it. I lost all faith in humanity that night. Some people shouldn't vent in public. I don't even know what to say to that. That hurts my heart in ways I cannot express. I don't understand some people.
At one point, we were considering whether or not it would be better for our special needs child to go to public school or stay home with me. I was at the park with him and ran into a special needs classroom on an outing type day. I was horrified at the behavior of the teachers and assistants toward their students and the things they were saying about the students to each other. They were downright cruel, mean, and derogatory. This was out in public, not even in the privacy of the classroom. Our decision was made that day. (No offence to anyone here who lovingly works with special needs students. I have a dear friend who does it beautifully. I just knew I couldn't risk my son ending up in a classroom like that.)
Sorry for the tangent.
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flute4peace
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Apr 4, 2016 17:48:05 GMT
I don't know where you are but butterfly needles are the exception rather than the rule at every place I've worked, whether it was a phleb or a nurse drawing. I'm in an office now and draw blood every day. I use this type most often, though a butterfly set can also be used with the vacutainer holder. I only use that for really tiny veins or those nervous Nellies who think that that's the only kind that can be used upon them, no matter the actual size or condition of their veins ![](http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k297/zombiegrrl_2006/Screenshot_2016-04-01-22-39-08-1_zpsooie0vkr.png) That's probably what people think I am, until they try 4 times with a "standard" needle/system, I give a few drops & stop at each site, they finally believe me & use the butterfly and it flows like a river.
Every single time.
And no I'm not nervous.
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on Apr 4, 2016 18:20:25 GMT
If I find out from a post like this that a lab tech/nurse will be vindictive and deliberately hurt me worse for mentioning using a butterfly and that is backed up by my own experiences I may well quit mentioning butterfly's I'd like to think not. I have certainly never done that and I've never known anyone that says they do that. In my case if I wasn't comfortable using a butterfly then I'd do my best to convince you to let me try it the other way first and I'd be as gentle as I could. My aim is to get the blood I need with the least amount of stress to both of us. Getting into an argument with a patient and hurting them isn't my idea of a good day. I think that comment was just part of the "vent" and expressing frustration. We aren't in this job because we like to hurt people, sometimes we have to. I've done things that I know are very painful to people and I hate it. I do it because I have to and in the long term it's best for the patient. If I were the patient in your case, I would much prefer you to go get a different tech who knew how to use the butterfly, than to stick me unsuccessfully 4 times and then have to go get that person anyway.
My Mom's veins are the same as mine. They look great. They don't roll. They just happen to suck up after being stuck with a large needle. We don't know why. Our doctors don't know why. We just know that they do. Every time.
When I was pg with my last child, I needed to have the 3-hr glucose test. No butterflies. They finally gave up after around 10 sticks, every tech and nurse in the building, a call to the lab to find out the smallest possible amount of blood needed to be able to do the test, and nowhere near enough.
I've never had a regular needle stick work.
I've never had a butterfly stick not work.
Didn't matter who did it.
Same thing with an IV. I had a hysterectomy several years ago at a privately-owned surgery center (owned by my OB/GYN from that 3rd baby). For the first time in my life, the IV went in without a hitch. I commented, the nurse said they used a pediatric needle because the dr remembered my veins from that experience with the glucose test. I was impressed.
I had an excisional biopsy on Friday. Pre-op nurse asked if I had any requests. I asked for a pediatric IV needle due to prior experience. She got huffy and said they "had to use a needle capable of handling the amount of fluids they needed to give me", but also said "they did have different sizes of needles available". I thought that sounded like a reasonable explanation, so I asked for the smallest needle they had available. She got huffy again and repeated that "they had to use a needle capable of handling the amount of fluids they needed to give me." So I said ok, may I please have the smallest size of needle capable of handling the amount of fluids they needed to give me.
20 minutes and multiple locations later, I had a very uncomfortable IV in my wrist, which she said was the only place she could get it to work. I'll be happy to show you a picture of the needle hole in the nice plump vein on the back of my hand that sucked down as soon as she got the needle into it.
I think the bottom line, here, is that every patient is different. I have absolutely no doubt that there are many patients that are difficult and make unreasonable requests and are highly annoying. I get that, and I also see the frustration and need to vent that it surely would produce.
The problem is, there are some patients with legitimate experiences that cause us to make those requests. Some of us have even been told by our doctors to make those requests. When we're treated as if we don't know what we're talking about, especially when it's by someone who hasn't lived our life, doesn't know our body or hasn't even tried to take our blood before, it can feel a little putoffish.
I hope that makes sense.
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Gravity
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 27, 2014 0:29:55 GMT
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Post by Gravity on Apr 4, 2016 19:31:45 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle?
Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 28, 2024 19:49:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 19:53:32 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle? Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising. Because you are a rarity? When I was in the ER , I couldn't decide whether to cry from the bowel pain or the bad Iv thingy in the back of my hand. The pain was so bad whatever was in the Iv didn't work. I didn't dare say anything because the person who put it in was in a bad mood. I had to go to the doctor a couple days later , and broke down when she told me it would at the very least a month for my hand to heal. It looked like somebody dropped a building on it.
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Post by Zee on Apr 4, 2016 20:11:41 GMT
That's probably what people think I am, until they try 4 times with a "standard" needle/system, I give a few drops & stop at each site, they finally believe me & use the butterfly and it flows like a river.
Every single time.
And no I'm not nervous.
OMG...stop being offended. I SAID tiny veins. There are, believe me, also people who heard someone say once that they should "ask for the butterfly" because they heard it will be painless. Which, as you know, it's not. I'm pretty much done hashing this out. If you actually read all my posts, I said I'm willing to give it a whirl if that is what the patient says works for them. I TRUST MY PATIENTS TO KNOW THEIR BODIES. That doesn't mean I'm not going to use my own professional judgement too, but in the case of a butterfly vs a regular needle, nothing terrible will happen other than it might take a lot longer.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Apr 4, 2016 20:18:10 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle? Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising. Well, obviously you are a miracle worker then. Because in my decades of blood draws, I've only had ONE person able to draw my blood using a regular needle. ONE. I have long since lost count of the times I've ended up with bruises up and down my arm or in my hand due to so called medical professionals who thought they were god's gift to blood draws and refused to use a butterfly even though I asked, them begged them to. Average number of sticks before they've given up? 12. Somehow, that's acceptable medical procedure -- ignore a patient's request based on experience and just keep sticking them. Who cares if they end up with bruises up and down their arm and on their hand? Who cares if the bruising is so bad that the patient can't use the arm to carry anything for days, including her brand new baby? Right? All that matters is the so-called medical professional's ego. And that's why I've put off going back in for a necessary blood draw. Last time, 3 techs stuck me 5 times each trying to get in. I ended up missing 2 days of work because I couldn't do it due to the bruising and resulting pain due to the nature of my job. I can't afford to miss 2 days of work, but I have zero faith that I'll get better treatment this time. But who cares, right? As long as those techs got a chance to prove themselves. The fact that they all failed was, I suppose, irrelevant.
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Post by elaine on Apr 4, 2016 20:29:09 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle? Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising. It has absolutely nothing to do with people's past experiences whatsoever - we patients all go surf www.whattosaytoannoythehelloutofyournurse.com on our phones on the way to the hospital and that is the #1 recommended line to say when they try to draw blood or get an IV in. ![](http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r481/2peasrefugees/Smilies/slaphead.gif)
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flute4peace
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Apr 4, 2016 20:55:40 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle? Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising. Because to some of us, it is a freaking miracle needle.
Please PM me your # so I can call you and have you come do my next draw.
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flute4peace
Drama Llama
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Jul 3, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
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Post by flute4peace on Apr 4, 2016 21:08:20 GMT
That's probably what people think I am, until they try 4 times with a "standard" needle/system, I give a few drops & stop at each site, they finally believe me & use the butterfly and it flows like a river.
Every single time.
And no I'm not nervous.
OMG...stop being offended. I SAID tiny veins. There are, believe me, also people who heard someone say once that they should "ask for the butterfly" because they heard it will be painless. Which, as you know, it's not. I'm pretty much done hashing this out. If you actually read all my posts, I said I'm willing to give it a whirl if that is what the patient says works for them. I TRUST MY PATIENTS TO KNOW THEIR BODIES. That doesn't mean I'm not going to use my own professional judgement too, but in the case of a butterfly vs a regular needle, nothing terrible will happen other than it might take a lot longer. Umm ok apparently I wasn't clear. I don't have tiny veins. I have deceptive veins that look great until they get stuck. Therefore, when I read this:
I assumed I was one of the Nervous Nellies. I was hoping to convey that sometimes those "Nervous Nellies" actually know what they're talking about. My apologies for offending. I do appreciate your willingness to use the butterflies when requested.
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Post by mcscrapper on Apr 5, 2016 1:19:00 GMT
Bruising can happen not matter what size needle is used. I've butterflied a normally healthy young man and he bruised the size of a quarter. Stuck another pt with a 14ga (yes, folks...a 14) needle and didn't bruise a bit. There are a LOT of factors that cause a pt to bruise. Some of it can just be the nature of the pt, blood thinners, too much pressure on the tourniquet, not enough. There is no magic formula to prevent bruising.
Of course, if the vein blows that isn't necessarily the fault of the nurse/tech but maybe the pt is dehydrated or something else.
With that being said, can we just drop the whole blood draw / butterfly thing? This was really just meant to be a healthcare workers' place to vent.
m
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Post by hop2 on Apr 5, 2016 2:03:03 GMT
Why does everyone think a butterfly needle is a freaking miracle needle? Sugned, NICU RN who never uses a butterfly needle, but still gets blood draws and IVs with one stick and no bruising. It has absolutely nothing to do with people's past experiences whatsoever - we patients all go surf www.whattosaytoannoythehelloutofyournurse.com on our phones on the way to the hospital and that is the #1 recommended line to say when they try to draw blood or get an IV in. ![](http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r481/2peasrefugees/Smilies/slaphead.gif) Late April fool on me I actually tried the link. Duh all the while thinking really? There's a site like that?
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Post by elaine on Apr 5, 2016 2:03:44 GMT
Bruising can happen not matter what size needle is used. I've butterflied a normally healthy young man and he bruised the size of a quarter. Stuck another pt with a 14ga (yes, folks...a 14) needle and didn't bruise a bit. There are a LOT of factors that cause a pt to bruise. Some of it can just be the nature of the pt, blood thinners, too much pressure on the tourniquet, not enough. There is no magic formula to prevent bruising. Of course, if the vein blows that isn't necessarily the fault of the nurse/tech but maybe the pt is dehydrated or something else. With that being said, can we just drop the whole blood draw / butterfly thing? This was really just meant to be a healthcare workers' place to vent. m Meh. You chose a public message board that is not medically related and on which patients and their families exponentially outnumber healthcare workers to vent about what people say regarding blood draws and IVs. Y'all can vent here, and, SINCE YOU STARTED IT HERE, patients and their families get to vent too .If you don't want people telling you what to vent about here, don't you DARE tell patients and their families not to vent back. Hence my comments about it being an inappropriate place for this type of thread. If you want a place for ONLY healthcare workers to vent, go find a healthcare worker forum. In the meantime, anyone who reads this thread is welcome to respond on whichever topic that you brought up that they want to.
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Post by elaine on Apr 5, 2016 2:05:15 GMT
It has absolutely nothing to do with people's past experiences whatsoever - we patients all go surf www.whattosaytoannoythehelloutofyournurse.com on our phones on the way to the hospital and that is the #1 recommended line to say when they try to draw blood or get an IV in. ![](http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r481/2peasrefugees/Smilies/slaphead.gif) Late April fool on me I actually tried the link. Duh all the while thinking really? There's a site like that? <snort> Sorry! I thought I was being obvious.
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Post by hop2 on Apr 5, 2016 2:06:31 GMT
Late April fool on me I actually tried the link. Duh all the while thinking really? There's a site like that? <snort> Sorry! I thought I was being obvious. It's late, it was blue, I was thinking what possible wild things could be there and I fell for it. Lol Had a good laugh
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Post by mcscrapper on Apr 5, 2016 2:12:42 GMT
Bruising can happen not matter what size needle is used. I've butterflied a normally healthy young man and he bruised the size of a quarter. Stuck another pt with a 14ga (yes, folks...a 14) needle and didn't bruise a bit. There are a LOT of factors that cause a pt to bruise. Some of it can just be the nature of the pt, blood thinners, too much pressure on the tourniquet, not enough. There is no magic formula to prevent bruising. Of course, if the vein blows that isn't necessarily the fault of the nurse/tech but maybe the pt is dehydrated or something else. With that being said, can we just drop the whole blood draw / butterfly thing? This was really just meant to be a healthcare workers' place to vent. m Meh. You chose a public message board that is not medically related and on which patients and their families exponentially outnumber healthcare workers to vent about what people say regarding blood draws and IVs. Y'all can vent here, and, SINCE YOU STARTED IT HERE, patients and their families get to vent too .If you don't want people telling you what to vent about here, don't you DARE tell patients and their families not to vent back. Hence my comments about it being an inappropriate place for this type of thread. If you want a place for ONLY healthcare workers to vent, go find a healthcare worker forum. In the meantime, anyone who reads this thread is welcome to respond on whichever topic that you brought up that they want to. Or why don't you just stay out of the thread altogether? I didn't say people couldn't vent. Once again, you are putting words into someone's mouth. Last I checked, this was a general board and people from ALL walks of life and professions openly vent on here. Heck, people come on here and vent about their children and spouses. Does that mean we need to find a "family vent" forum?
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Post by elaine on Apr 5, 2016 2:18:09 GMT
Meh. You chose a public message board that is not medically related and on which patients and their families exponentially outnumber healthcare workers to vent about what people say regarding blood draws and IVs. Y'all can vent here, and, SINCE YOU STARTED IT HERE, patients and their families get to vent too .If you don't want people telling you what to vent about here, don't you DARE tell patients and their families not to vent back. Hence my comments about it being an inappropriate place for this type of thread. If you want a place for ONLY healthcare workers to vent, go find a healthcare worker forum. In the meantime, anyone who reads this thread is welcome to respond on whichever topic that you brought up that they want to. Or why don't you just stay out of the thread altogether? I didn't say people couldn't vent. Once again, you are putting words into someone's mouth. Last I checked, this was a general board and people from ALL walks of life and professions openly vent on here. No, you asked people to stop talking about a subject that wasn't going your way. I didn't put any words in your mouth. Go read your post. And read what I bolded. If you weren't asking people to stop venting about their negative needle experiences, please explain yourself; because that is how it reads to me. And patients and family members should feel free to continue to share and vent about their experiences with blood draws, IVs, and needles. You don't get to decide when people need to drop a subject you started simply because you have grown tired of the responses you are getting. I have absolutely no desire to stay out of this thread and I won't. Again, feel free to tell me you don't like what I'm saying, or that you think it is inappropriate, but don't you dare try to censor me or shut me up.
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Post by mcscrapper on Apr 5, 2016 2:29:10 GMT
Interesting. From this thread I've learned that the kidlet probably had red man syndrome from the vanco. She was red as a beet the one time she had it and I was told to make sure that she is never given that again. Also, I've had many blood draws with butterfly needles. Usually the best thing they can find is on the back of my hand right near a knuckle. It hurts like hell but it gets the job done. Yes, Vanc can cause Red Man Syndrome especially if it is given for long periods of time or too quickly. Vanc is definitely not my favorite med to give. I only take care of peds trauma pts which is rare and bad enough but I can't imagine caring for a little one with RMS. I just couldn't do the little ones. How long did she have RMS? m
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Apr 5, 2016 2:53:24 GMT
Interesting. From this thread I've learned that the kidlet probably had red man syndrome from the vanco. She was red as a beet the one time she had it and I was told to make sure that she is never given that again. Also, I've had many blood draws with butterfly needles. Usually the best thing they can find is on the back of my hand right near a knuckle. It hurts like hell but it gets the job done. Yes, Vanc can cause Red Man Syndrome especially if it is given for long periods of time or too quickly. Vanc is definitely not my favorite med to give. I only take care of peds trauma pts which is rare and bad enough but I can't imagine caring for a little one with RMS. I just couldn't do the little ones. How long did she have RMS? m It only lasted a day, maybe two. It was surprising to see her like that because when they gave it in her IV it was dim in the room with the lights down so she could rest. When they came to check on her and flipped the light on she was so red! It came on very quickly. I'm trying to remember if that was the time she had sepsis. Can't remember. She was hospitalized several times last year. The sepsis admission was for 10 days. She was there for several days already for UTI that hit her hard, then diagnosed with sepsis so another 7 days with round the clock antibiotics. Ugh. It was so long, couldn't wait to get her home.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,357
Aug 9, 2014 23:13:22 GMT
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Post by DEX on Apr 5, 2016 2:58:10 GMT
![:deadhorse:](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/0QW78KiDyjCOWvDh89PK.jpg) Some of you sound like a broken record. You have made the same points again and again on pages1-5. We get it. A lot of anger directed at healthcare professionals. Just like any profession, there are great people in it and some not so great. I guarantee that no worker lays in bed at night and plots how to screw your day. It is all about your perception of reality.
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Post by penny on Apr 5, 2016 19:12:22 GMT
Pts/pt families - be honest and provide FULL information... If it's an allergy say it's an allergy that causes anaphylaxis... If it's not an allergy, say that it's not an allergy but that bad reactions such as nausea happen... If you're a hard stick, say I'm a hard stick because this vein rolls but the one in my hand/other arm/whatever usually cooperates...
Med professionals - make sure the pt/families know you've heard what they've told you, and tell them why you're doing what you're doing... Acknowledging the pt has a tricky vein and then saying you want to try there with a larger gauge needle because it will mean avoiding a second poke if the pt has to to for surg/whatever means they know there's a reason and that's usually reassuring...
It can be hard not to have an attitude if you're in pain, have heard the same lie repeatedly, if you've had a bad experience, if the pt is condescending... So much of medicine is based on observable patterns and likelyhoods (can't think of the word I'm looking for)... When you see the consequences for drug seekers, you become very attune to their methods because you don't want someone else heading down that path... If you've just heard 100 people tell you the same thing like its a badge of honour and a personal challenge that they're better than your skills, then you've likely got a bit of a wall up to distance yourself from that/to stay professional and not engage... You're already 'prepared' the next time a pt says it to you... If the pt gives facts as to why - vein rolls, dehydrated, etc, then you can take that into account... If they just keep saying how no one ever gets it then you don't have any actual information that allows you to try a different approach...
There's always going to be a few bad professionals, and there will always be a few pts that can't better participate in their care... Being forthcoming with information and allowing the process the professionals need to follow take place works the most...
Oh, and if you're told to wait right there - please wait sort of there! You're in pain, you're 'dying', you want to be seen immediately, but then you wander off!!
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Post by MsChiff on Apr 6, 2016 4:31:16 GMT
I, too, am a bad stick. I hate even mentioning it because it seems like many phlebotomists take the comment as a thrown gauntlet. I screwed either way. My husband has this problem, and when he is dehydrated it's worse and he is always dehydrated at the er because he goes for small bowel obstructions and has been vomiting. They always patronize him, bruise the shit out his arms and then agree he is a hard stick. 2 weeks ago they couldn't get a new IV with an ultrasound and four people from the IV team. Finally they quit and he is still bruised. An anastesiologist had to do it. I understand that medical professionals feel like everyone says that, but it really sucks to watch my husband I. Pain because they have some damn pride issue I've had the same experiences. Small bowel obstructions are NOT fun. Gallstone aren't either. They're a special kind of hell. When I'm having one I WILL scale the pain high as it feels like something is gnawing on my innards. I will likely also be moaning in pain/vomiting/sweating/hunched over. So when you tell me to go to the waiting room to wait at least 2 hours to be seen, I will not be happy and will do what I feel necessary to endure the wait. This may include lying on the floor when I get lightheaded/weak. (And I may wish that one day you, too, get to endure this particular hell for the same amount of time.) Giving me attitude when I inform you that I'm a hard draw and the longer you wait the harder the draw (due to dehydration from vomiting/sweating) will not help anyone. If I tell you I am allergic to something, it's because a Dr. told me I'm allergic. You know what will help? Listening to my knowledge and showing compassion.
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Post by mlynn on Apr 6, 2016 7:33:05 GMT
I have very deep veins and they are tiny and they squiggle. And that was when I was a normal weight. Now that I am over 300 pounds, the difficulties are exacerbated.
When I go in, I tell them I need a butterfly needle and to take it out of my hand. If they insist that they try my arm, I tell that if they insist, they can, but they will have to pick me up off the floor. They usually decide not to. 300 pounds is a lot of woman to pick up off the floor - especially if she is unconscious.
I also tell them that they should use my right hand. They will want to check the left but will come back. They give me that smile and proceed to check the left side. Then they go back to the right and start to listen to me about what works. I will show them which vein on my hand works. Some will insist on looking for another as it is right next to the knuckle. But they always come back to it.
They try not to use the hand, because it will hurt. I tell them the pain is better than the fainting as fainting ruins the whole rest of the day. Very few are able to take blood from my hand without hurting, but I deal with it. Like I said, it beats the alternative.
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