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Post by *sprout* on Jul 30, 2014 22:31:36 GMT
Hold the phone.
Really? Sorry because SHE was made to feel uncomfortable by having to view something "offensive" or "funny" to her? Did you miss the entire point of the pile on? She said some crappy stuff. She's also a very nice person (lots of people have said that). She maybe shouldn't have said it here. People rioted. She retracted. Then apologized. And all of a sudden now SHE's a victim?
Just when you think you've seen it all.....damn.
I'm fairly certain melanell was referring to the caro's statement that she felt uncomfortable when people stared and whispered when she was out with her daughter. Not about the bikinis.
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Post by sues on Jul 30, 2014 22:34:24 GMT
Really? Sorry because SHE was made to feel uncomfortable by having to view something "offensive" or "funny" to her?
I could be wrong, but I think they were talking about a different instance the OP mentioned, about a time she was out with her daughter and she was the recipient of the looks and stares.
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Post by molove on Jul 30, 2014 22:35:57 GMT
I would LOVE to be wrong about this! Cuz that's just plain crazy.
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mallie
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,253
Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Jul 30, 2014 22:39:42 GMT
Caro, I don't look for people to insult me, and therefore I pretty much survive everyday life. So it never occurred to me that your observation would start a ruckus. I'm glad some people are confident enough to wear ill-fitting, ugly clothes in public because ... well, if they have that kind of confidence, then they can handle my opinion that it's not attractive, huh? (Obviously, I'm one of those who can take criticism couched in almost any way you want to phrase it and roll with it.) And if they can't handle it, that's what society opinion is for -- to teach folks what they don't discern for themselves. We have this notion that shame, discomfort, embarrassment, and other negative feelings don't belong in our society. In reality, they can be wonderful ways to stop, turn around and motivate ourselves to something better. Julie Posters keep saying the people wearing ill-fitting, unflattering, ugly clothes or clothes that expose flaws are confident and brave. Are they all confident and brave, really? Or is possible that some of these people are some combination of apathetic, ignorant, attention-seeking, in denial, or given up caring about their appearance? (One of the signs of depression, after all, is when people stop caring about their appearance.) I just don't see the need to project 100% positive and emotionally healthy motivations to people based on the way they dress, just as I wouldn't project 100% negative motivations based on the way they dress either.
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Post by myboysnme on Jul 30, 2014 23:16:54 GMT
Actually, your OP reminded me of the thread about feminism. My thoughts about weight and appearance are another thing that keeps me from being the feminist I want to be. In my head I am completely in favor of people accepting others and feeling comfortable, but emotionally I feel bad about myself, and I judge others.
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Post by gajitldy on Jul 30, 2014 23:21:12 GMT
I didn't see the OP either but having been a large person for most of my life (til my recent cancer) I will say that just cause they make it in larger sizes, doesn't mean we should wear it. I am not trying to be mean, but goodness do people not use mirrors anymore?!
Diane
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 23:31:35 GMT
Caro, I don't look for people to insult me, and therefore I pretty much survive everyday life. So it never occurred to me that your observation would start a ruckus. I'm glad some people are confident enough to wear ill-fitting, ugly clothes in public because ... well, if they have that kind of confidence, then they can handle my opinion that it's not attractive, huh? (Obviously, I'm one of those who can take criticism couched in almost any way you want to phrase it and roll with it.) And if they can't handle it, that's what society opinion is for -- to teach folks what they don't discern for themselves. We have this notion that shame, discomfort, embarrassment, and other negative feelings don't belong in our society. In reality, they can be wonderful ways to stop, turn around and motivate ourselves to something better. Julie Posters keep saying the people wearing ill-fitting, unflattering, ugly clothes or clothes that expose flaws are confident and brave. Are they all confident and brave, really? Or is possible that some of these people are some combination of apathetic, ignorant, attention-seeking, in denial, or given up caring about their appearance? (One of the signs of depression, after all, is when people stop caring about their appearance.) I just don't see the need to project 100% positive and emotionally healthy motivations to people based on the way they dress, just as I wouldn't project 100% negative motivations based on the way they dress either. Or maybe just maybe they don't find it unflattering or ill fitting. Not everyone is attracted to the same things nor have the same likes/dislikes. Why the need to project your (general not specific you) on others?
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Post by melanell on Jul 30, 2014 23:47:34 GMT
Hold the phone.
Really? Sorry because SHE was made to feel uncomfortable by having to view something "offensive" or "funny" to her? Did you miss the entire point of the pile on? She said some crappy stuff. She's also a very nice person (lots of people have said that). She maybe shouldn't have said it here. People rioted. She retracted. Then apologized. And all of a sudden now SHE's a victim?
Just when you think you've seen it all.....damn.
Wait, what? I'm not sure what is wrong with me being sad that people treated her poorly because her daughter was "different". It sucks every bit as much as her saying something unkind about people who are different than she is. I'm not saying that I still don't like what she said in the first place. But I try not to be a hypocrite. If being Caro being mean (even inadvertently) sucks, then others being mean to Caro sucks, too. As far as her being "bashed" on the other thread or it being a "pile-on", I didn't really see it as such. I wasn't trying to bash her. I was trying to show her a different point of view.
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Sue
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,240
Location: SE of Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2014 18:42:33 GMT
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Post by Sue on Jul 30, 2014 23:53:40 GMT
How does one NOT judge? I was raised in the much more conservative 50's and 60's and though I 'm not a prude necessarily I still cling to my more modest views of what is appropriate for me to wear.
Just yesterday I made a judgement about a person.
I was out shopping in my local Fred Meyer when a woman, somewhere between 70 and 80 years old walked by and I couldn't help staring as she walked past me. She wore no make-up, had frizzy, graying shoulder length hair... all very normal... but she wore a longish blouse that came down about one inch below her crotch... no skirt, no shorts, no slacks. She wore panty hose with high wedge shoes. But the kicker was that the blouse or dress or whatever it was was was so short that the top part of her panty hose (the part that is the same opaque color as the panty part) showed about 6 inches below the bottom of the top she wore.
I noticed that mine weren't the only eyes that followed her as she made her way down the main isle of the store but none of us spoke a word.
My judgement wasn't completely about her choice of clothing though. It was about her state of mind. To myself I questioned how or why did she happen to be out dressed the way she was. Did she suffer from dementia? Had she forgotten to finish dressing? Did she need help? Or was this just a case of a person dressing the way they wanted? A confusion of judgements I guess you could say, but in the end I did feel she was dressed very inappropriately though I kept that opinion to myself.
So... getting back to my opening sentence... how does one *not* judge?
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Post by seikashaven on Jul 30, 2014 23:53:43 GMT
Caro I appreciate the apology and I have no doubt that you're a nice person.
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caro
Drama Llama
Refupea 1130
Posts: 5,222
Jun 26, 2014 14:10:36 GMT
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Post by caro on Jul 30, 2014 23:53:58 GMT
Hold the phone.
Really? Sorry because SHE was made to feel uncomfortable by having to view something "offensive" or "funny" to her? Did you miss the entire point of the pile on? She said some crappy stuff. She's also a very nice person (lots of people have said that). She maybe shouldn't have said it here. People rioted. She retracted. Then apologized. And all of a sudden now SHE's a victim?
Just when you think you've seen it all.....damn.
Molove, in my apology I wrote about being the recipient of whispers, stares and general discomfort when I was out with my severely mentally challenged DD and how it made me feel and how I could compare it to the women on here who were offended by my statements. That is what is being referred to here, not me being a victim.
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Post by molove on Jul 31, 2014 0:05:34 GMT
I am very relieved that I misunderstood that comment. I did not see the part about your severely mentally challenged DD. I thought that comment was referring to you at the beach. Apologies.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 31, 2014 0:07:20 GMT
...in appropriate context.
Making someone else feel bad about themselves is not the same thing as motivating them to do better.
I could say to the fat stranger in the bikini, damn girl, you should NOT be wearing THAT or I could have a real relationship with a real person and be a friend, who knows how to take the shame and embarrassment that most fat folks feel at some time or another and turn it into something empowering and positive.
I have experienced both and if it's a wonderful way to turn your life around you want, I really recommend the latter, that's all.
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Post by melanell on Jul 31, 2014 0:12:22 GMT
Maybe it boils down to one's personality. I am very curious. I wonder about people. Many times when people come here and say "Why would someone do XYZ", and I can think of 3 or 4 reasons right away. When people say "I can't imagine......" it drives me a little nutty, because I think "Really? Are you joking or can you truly not manage to imagine that?". Because I can imagine all sorts of things. Some of them I imagine to be absolutely horrifying, but I can imagine them. Sometimes I figure that even in my imagination it's not as bad as in reality, but I can still try to imagine what something might be like. That's why I often come back to a thread and post several times, because I'm trying to figure people out--to understand them more. I'm also not a black and white person at all. Someone can ask a question here, and I can answer it, but then I have to sit on my hands not to list a whole thread full of exceptions to my own answer. I also tend to try not to jump the worst conclusion. I'd rather come up with other possibilities first. Now that doesn't mean I never judge. I may try not to, but is I hear of someone abusing their children, I feel anger towards them. Even if it is a circle of violence situation, where I an understand what has led them to this place, I still feel anger that they haven't taken measures to try to prevent it. It may not be fair, but I do feel anger towards them. I feel for the child that they were, but I look at their current behavior and I think they are awful for doing it. So yes, I judge.
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Post by CarolinaGirl71 on Jul 31, 2014 0:18:06 GMT
I missed the drama thread, but I know from past history that you are a nice person. And your great apology proves that, too! It's the peas - maybe it's early Thursday!
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 0:27:33 GMT
If Caro being mean (even inadvertently) sucks, then others being mean to Caro sucks, too. This bears repeating. I doubt the ones who responded with name-calling and insults of their own will come back to apologize, though.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 0:56:19 GMT
A classy, heart-felt apology from a very nice person.
I disagree, though, with all those who say "forget about it and move on". If we forget the lesson to be learned we really haven't learned anything. Remember the lesson and go forward, with increased knowledge and empathy.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,314
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jul 31, 2014 1:13:54 GMT
So... getting back to my opening sentence... how does one *not* judge? I think it's human nature to see/hear things and draw conclusions and think negative thoughts or judgements. I think it's what we do with our thoughts afterwards. Do we hold them captive? I mean that in the sense of seeing something, rolling our eyes inwardly and continuing on. Or do you see something and whip out your phone and poof it's all over instagram or walmart weirdos.com type of thing? Do we run to our favorite message board and can't wait to dish or have a collective laugh at someone else's expense?
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Post by leslie132 on Jul 31, 2014 1:16:24 GMT
It's a tough thing to do. Taking a look at yourself and finding that you did something your not proud of. Honestly, I think Keyboard courage, where people tear into a subject, is so over rated.
Be proud of yourself. Most wouldn't have thought twice. You did. And everyone thinks that's cool! All is good!
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Post by bosoxbeth on Jul 31, 2014 1:22:46 GMT
No biggie! Hugs!
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camcas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,112
Jun 26, 2014 3:41:19 GMT
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Post by camcas on Jul 31, 2014 1:27:10 GMT
(((hugs)))))
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Post by jillonthehill on Jul 31, 2014 1:54:09 GMT
Are these pictures you've taken yourself or pictures from the internet?
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Post by shevy on Jul 31, 2014 2:33:52 GMT
We have this notion that shame, discomfort, embarrassment, and other negative feelings don't belong in our society. In reality, they can be wonderful ways to stop, turn around and motivate ourselves to something better. Julie Who's to say they aren't already motivated? I lost 90 pounds and started wearing a tankini. Am I supposed to wear a sign that says my accomplishments so I'm justified in wearing it? Should I or my husband have to show people the photo of what we looked like before to show we are motivated? Should I have told those who still gave me looks, leers and snide remarks? You oh never know what someone has done or is going through. Not everyone needs external 'encouragement'.
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Post by laureljean on Jul 31, 2014 2:51:59 GMT
(hug) Just because people may disagree with what you say, doesn't mean you are condemned. Whenever I get differing viewpoints from something I say, I take it as an opportunity to learn from another viewpoint.
You are a beautiful person, and I can tell from your post that you are thoughtful and willing to learn. Those are things to be proud of.
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Post by penny on Jul 31, 2014 4:06:21 GMT
There is a powerful difference between embarrassment and shame... Embarrassment is a temporary or superficial reaction to a specific act... Shame is a deep belief that you are worthless and a failure as a person... Embarrassment can be part of a healthy life, and learning boundaries or how to function within a social group... Shame is unhealthy, debilitating, and isolating... If you're (general you not specific), going to decide what belongs in our society, first make sure you don't confuse two similar but extremely different experiences...
I'm not sure 'why' they put on the bikini makes any difference in this context... If they have depression, how does that make it more acceptable to judge them or make unkind remarks? If they are in denial, or have what you consider bad taste (ignorant), then how do those things make hurtful words okay? Ignorant, mental health issues, just plain not caring, a fashion sense that only they find pleasing - their worth as a person is the same...
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Post by bebe on Jul 31, 2014 4:22:12 GMT
.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jul 31, 2014 4:51:51 GMT
You are a classy lady offering an apology.
We know you are nice!
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Post by lesserknownpea on Jul 31, 2014 7:26:19 GMT
I appreciate the apology. Likening the body shaming to the stares of the ignorant while you were out with your daughter is a powerful empathizing tool. I have been to restaurants with my niece who has CP, and been aware that some patrons find her method of feeding herself to be offensive. Some have said ignorant things.
I really feel the thread was a valuable learning opportunity . We have been TRAINED by our culture to judge women by their size. My father has always been horrible on this subject, Just recently, he has switched to saying "it's so unhealthy", but I know the man. He's been judging and shaming girls and women for not being thin my whole life. (His favorite TV character was Ally McBeal) I admit in my younger life I too had some of this mentality, as my mother also subscribed to it. It's an automatic thought in many peoples heads because of conditioning. But's let's change that.
I totally agree that the less shaming, the more likely women are to take care of their bodies, no matter what condition they currently are in.
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Post by Scarlet Ohana on Jul 31, 2014 8:06:23 GMT
I do appreciate your apology. You're kind to realize what you said could have hurt some people and come back to apologize. I'm sorry for calling you an idiot. I was actually surprised the thread went the way it did because I thought it would have gone more in agreement with your post. I've seen threads like that before on 2Peas and when you mentioned body shaming there was a lot of eye rolling. I'm hoping this means that more people now are realizing that it's not ok.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 8:17:22 GMT
Caro...
If you participate on this board, one day you're going to say something that offends a number of people at one time or another, whether you meant to come across the way people took it or not. It's happened to just about all of us who are active here.
I read that thread, and what you said did not change my opinion of you one iota. First of all, because it didn't offend me, and more importantly, even if it had, I've known you long enough on the board to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I posted on that thread to say what I wear when swimming, but other than that, because my views on the topic didn't mesh with the accepted POV, I didn't post them. It just wasn't worth the hassle.
That was a lovely apology, by the way!
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