joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649 
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Post by joelise on May 23, 2016 17:52:52 GMT
For a variety of personal and medical reasons I've had my head in the sand for the last couple of years and haven't taken much notice of politics or the news.
I'm interested to know the views of the other peas on the referendum of the UK's membership in the EU. I want to make an informed decision before I vote, and to be honest I am a bit overwhelmed with it all at the minute!
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LeaP
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,939
Location: Los Angeles, CA where 405 meets 101
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Post by LeaP on May 23, 2016 19:32:23 GMT
Britain was very wise to keep their currency separate, but I think they should stay in the EU.
ETA: I'm a U.S. citizen so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,861
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on May 23, 2016 19:55:31 GMT
If you are looking for articles to read you could start with sites like the BBC which have a evergrowing section of articles and commentary on the various issues that are centre stage at the moment. With a month to go I'm sure the amount of articles will grow and grow. www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendumMy guiding light through all of this is what type of country/Europe do I want my DD to inherit. There are no easy answers, there are valid concerns and valid pluses to each side. I am trying hard to ignore the personalities on both sides and look at the actual issues/facts. The arrival of our voting papers really focused the fact that the vote is getting close. |
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joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649
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Post by joelise on May 23, 2016 21:21:46 GMT
Yes, I received the voting papers on Friday, that made me realise how real this was and that I need to make a decision. Thanks for the link.
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Post by gar on May 23, 2016 21:56:00 GMT
I am struggling to make a decision. I feel there are few facts but lots of speculation, predictions, scaremongering etc etc going on. I think it's easy to see where people might think leaving EU will be good with regard to immigrants perhaps but not so many people have real knowledge on how it would affect jobs, trade and the hundred other aspects of it. Informed guesswork maybe, but there's simply no facts about what would actually happen imo.
The instability that leaving would inevitably create isn't appealing but how much impact would that really have and over what period of time. Would that be worth it long term? I don't know.
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joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649
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Post by joelise on May 24, 2016 7:28:21 GMT
I am struggling to make a decision. I feel there are few facts but lots of speculation, predictions, scaremongering etc etc going on. I think it's easy to see where people might think leaving EU will be good with regard to immigrants perhaps but not so many people have real knowledge on how it would affect jobs, trade and the hundred other aspects of it. Informed guesswork maybe, but there's simply no facts about what would actually happen imo. The instability that leaving would inevitably create isn't appealing but how much impact would that really have and over what period of time. Would that be worth it long term? I don't know. This is exactly how I feel gar. Sometimes I feel that leaving would be the right thing to do but then I change my mind as the unknown scares me. We seem to be getting a lot of contradicting information. |
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craftykitten
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,304
Jun 26, 2014 7:39:32 GMT
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Post by craftykitten on May 24, 2016 7:44:10 GMT
Funnily enough, wellway, I was thinking about what you said about ignoring the personalities involved, but I find it kind of helpful to look at the people who have made statements either way and figure out what their motives are. Obviously UK politicians have their own interests to look after, and then there are European leaders who want us to remain. But then you have the president of the USA...what advantage to us staying in would there be to him, unless he does actually think it's better? And then Unison, one of our biggest unions, is also in favour of staying in. What has really irritates me is that Boris Johnson, a man who has been sacked TWICE for lying, a man who only recently 'made up his mind' about Europe (and refused to deny that he had written two columns, one anti one pro), a man who is outright lying in his campaign (he told us we couldn't buy bendy bananas and I just did, yesterday) is being held up as some kind of poster boy for freedom and integrity. I will be glad when all this is over, tbh. Except Nigel Farage is already saying that if it doesn't go their way, they'll ask for another referendum, and another... |
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Post by gar on May 24, 2016 7:45:20 GMT
We seem to be getting a lot of contradicting information. Yes. For every business leader who assures us 'this' will happen another puts the other view across, for every open letter to the government by large businesses and corporations there's a reply from others refuting all their claims. It's hard to pick apart the info when you don't have enough understanding of how businesses on that scale work, how trade deals are done, what really happens behind the scenes. It's hard. I think a lot of the population will focus on the immigration issues, we'll leave and people won't have envisaged the fallout that will happen in so many other areas. |
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joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649
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Post by joelise on May 24, 2016 10:28:54 GMT
I wonder if this booklet they have promised us all will be very helpful!  |
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Post by anxiousmom on May 24, 2016 11:43:11 GMT
Obviously, this isn't something that will effect me first hand, but I have trying to follow it and I admit I am confused. It is hard to know who is right/wrong, who is exaggerating their perspective to bolster their view and impossible to follow. I couldn't decide if it was just me because I didn't have an 'insiders' understanding or if it really was that confusing-but the more I read, the more I am thinking that it is just confusing and there really isn't a simple 'list' of what would, could or might happen for either outcome.  |
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Post by Leone on May 24, 2016 11:50:20 GMT
I am commenting as a tourist who has been to Europe and the UK nine times over a 40 year period. As a tourist, I find that the EU thing has made Europe far less interesting. Very expensive, far less fun to shop. We were in the UK several years ago. So many of the clerks in shops in the countryside were not British. Now with this out of control migration and unrest, Europe is even less safe to visit.
Id love for the EU to dissolve. The one advantage to it compared to decades ago is that you are no longer stopped at the border of each country to have your passport checked.
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Post by fruitysuet on May 24, 2016 11:50:26 GMT
We seem to be getting a lot of contradicting information. Yes. For every business leader who assures us 'this' will happen another puts the other view across, for every open letter to the government by large businesses and corporations there's a reply from others refuting all their claims. It's hard to pick apart the info when you don't have enough understanding of how businesses on that scale work, how trade deals are done, what really happens behind the scenes. It's hard. I think a lot of the population will focus on the immigration issues, we'll leave and people won't have envisaged the fallout that will happen in so many other areas. But I think even if we leave we won't get fewer immigrants but more will be classed as illegal immigrants. Just under half of our immigrants are from the EU which means that just over half are from outside the EU anyway which leaving the EU obviously won't impact on.
All the 'tit for tat' does make it hard to make an informed opinion and I think like you that most people will focus on immigration rather than look at issues as a whole.
I personally am in the remain camp. My foremost concern is financial/business/trade stability.
I truly believe that if we do leave, those countries remaining in the EU, some in particular *cough cough Franch especially* would certainly block or drag out any attempts to put through favourable trade agreements. In any case those could take many years (I think I read it took Norway 8 years) to get those trade agreements in place AND they still have to pay for the privilege of having them.
I think multi-national businesses will be targeted by remaining EU countries with subsidies etc which will make it more beneficial for them to move their base (manufacturing and financial) outside of the UK, especially if there are heavy tariffs being imposed on exports from the UK into the EC.
My second concern is workers rights, maternity pay, working hours, sick pay etc. I know that the leave campaign says that our rights are better than in many other EC countries anyway, but the thing is that, without the minimum rights imposed by the EC, we would have to trust that any future government would keep current standards and not drop them, especially if there were no minimum standards needing to be maintained.
And if the booklet we received is the official one the Government was spending £££ on sending out then it was a total waste of time. A5 with just one page (large font size) of bullet points per side. No detail or explanation.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on May 24, 2016 12:20:22 GMT
I'm curious how the concept of "identity" factors into all this, and how that sways people. Hasn't the UK always positioned itself (literally and figuratively) as somewhat separate from the rest of Europe? But isn't that complicated by the fact that any sense of nationalism would be more connected to a specific country (e.g. England, Scotland) and less as a citizen of the UK as a whole? I might be totally off on this, so educate me, please.
I'm also curious about voter age and identity. I'm not sure what's happening now, but a few weeks ago I read that younger people were trending toward staying with the EU. Do younger people identify more strongly with being European than older voters; hence, a stronger sense of allegiance to the EU? Or is it more about the ability, low cost, and opportunity to go to school or even work in other member countries?
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joelise
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,649
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Post by joelise on May 24, 2016 14:14:29 GMT
I'm curious how the concept of "identity" factors into all this, and how that sways people. Hasn't the UK always positioned itself (literally and figuratively) as somewhat separate from the rest of Europe? But isn't that complicated by the fact that any sense of nationalism would be more connected to a specific country (e.g. England, Scotland) and less as a citizen of the UK as a whole? I might be totally off on this, so educate me, please. I'm also curious about voter age and identity. I'm not sure what's happening now, but a few weeks ago I read that younger people were trending toward staying with the EU. Do younger people identify more strongly with being European than older voters; hence, a stronger sense of allegiance to the EU? Or is it more about the ability, low cost, and opportunity to go to school or even work in other member countries? With regard to your second paragraph, I do know that anyone that I have asked who is under the age of 30 has immediately said yes to staying in the EU and anyone over the age of 70 has said leave the EU. It's the people in the middle that seem undecided! Maybe the younger ones say stay because they haven't known it any other way. The older people remember a time when we did fine on our own. |
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,395
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on May 24, 2016 14:30:31 GMT
Britain was very wise to keep their currency separate, but I think they should stay in the EU. ETA: I'm a U.S. citizen so take my opinion with a grain of salt.  Too much uncertainty on the outside for me. Ok, it might let a few one legged Albanian mass murderers in (yep, it is in all the papers) but in general, the rights of women will be upheld if we stay in, and the threats from other parts of the world will be better sorted together. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 21, 2024 20:23:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 14:39:32 GMT
I personally am in the remain camp. My foremost concern is financial/business/trade stability. I think we should stay in for those very reasons. It would be a disaster for trade. Some of the claims made about what will happen if we leave though are ridiculous, world war 3, rampant sex crimes, zombies... |
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wellway
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,861
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on May 24, 2016 14:43:39 GMT
I personally am in the remain camp. My foremost concern is financial/business/trade stability. I think we should stay in for those very reasons. It would be a disaster for trade. Some of the claims made about what will happen if we leave though are ridiculous, world war 3, rampant sex crimes, zombies... Damn, I must have missed the claim about zombies - that might get the young vote  |
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Post by anxiousmom on May 24, 2016 14:52:08 GMT
I think we should stay in for those very reasons. It would be a disaster for trade. Some of the claims made about what will happen if we leave though are ridiculous, world war 3, rampant sex crimes, zombies... Damn, I must have missed the claim about zombies - that might get the young vote Sort of off topic, but the Center for Disease Control (CDC) actually has a zombie preparedness plan. Maybe we should share it with y'all??  plan for zombies people, plan! |
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Post by fruitysuet on May 24, 2016 16:00:14 GMT
I'm curious how the concept of "identity" factors into all this, and how that sways people. Hasn't the UK always positioned itself (literally and figuratively) as somewhat separate from the rest of Europe? But isn't that complicated by the fact that any sense of nationalism would be more connected to a specific country (e.g. England, Scotland) and less as a citizen of the UK as a whole? I might be totally off on this, so educate me, please. I'm also curious about voter age and identity. I'm not sure what's happening now, but a few weeks ago I read that younger people were trending toward staying with the EU. Do younger people identify more strongly with being European than older voters; hence, a stronger sense of allegiance to the EU? Or is it more about the ability, low cost, and opportunity to go to school or even work in other member countries? At work it mainly seems to be the 25-35 age group who are in the leave camp from the few discussions we have held. Politics isn't a huge subject for discussion within my circle though - it's much more a private affair. And it is mainly immigration that is swaying the issue, though 'control' over laws from the European Parliament is also something people don't like.
And, somehow, nationalism seems stronger for Irish, Scots and the Welsh than English people. For example most (English) people I know when questioned about their nationality will answer British rather than English.
I think that the younger generations have grown up with a greater sense of acceptance/equality of other people whether it be gender, sexuality or ethnic origin, so I don't know if that is an influence, rather than older generations (I am in my fifties so I am saying older than that) who perhaps still haven't got to grips with the social changes that have occurred over the last 30 years and look back on 'the good old days' (insert eyeroll) when we weren't in the EU.
Also I feel that geography will play a large part. Those that live in areas heavily affected by the immigration crisis may well see that as their primary focus and feel that leaving the EU will reduce those problems (I don't agree) and bring more cash back into the system for education, jobs and the health service. Where I live there isn't a great ethnic diversity so perhaps that makes me more tolerant as I don't see the impact on those areas of my life coming directly as a result of immigration.
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BarbaraUK
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Surrounded by my yarn stash on the NE coast of England...............!! Refupea 1702
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Jun 27, 2014 12:47:11 GMT
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Post by BarbaraUK on May 24, 2016 16:42:45 GMT
I am commenting as a tourist who has been to Europe and the UK nine times over a 40 year period. As a tourist, I find that the EU thing has made Europe far less interesting. Very expensive, far less fun to shop. We were in the UK several years ago. So many of the clerks in shops in the countryside were not British. Now with this out of control migration and unrest, Europe is even less safe to visit. Id love for the EU to dissolve. The one advantage to it compared to decades ago is that you are no longer stopped at the border of each country to have your passport checked. It's not quite as simple as that. The EU was formed, rightly or wrongly, to prevent problems leading to wars between European countries - and in that, it has been successful so far. There are always many nationalities working in shops and hotels in London especially, many Europeans etc., filling essential jobs or working while studying here. However, before making blanket statements one has to be very sure that these people are not British, especially in places outside London. We have a very diverse population here with many British born people with parents of other nationalities. And even if the UK did decide to come out of the EU, the EU would not dissolve. It will continue because many EU countries have a lot vested in it's success. Also, Scotland has already said that if the rest of the UK votes to leave Europe, they will then campaign for another referendum regarding them leaving the UK. The security levels in Europe and the UK are very high for good reason. The security levels for the UK are at their highest and it hasn't got a thing to do with refugees making their way into Europe. As said before, this is not an easy or simple decision to make and can't just be made on whether the shopping is good in the EU or who is employed in shops.  |
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