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Post by monklady123 on Jun 14, 2016 20:08:37 GMT
This statement was made on another thread and I feel so sad reading it. "Although many of my friends are Christian they are still outraged over this mass murder." "Although"?? and "still"?? I understand that there are many wacky crazy cruel people who call themselves Christians. And I don't expect someone who is a different faith, or no particular religious faith, to understand all the nuances of Christianity. But surely we've had enough threads where all of us Christians of all the various denominations we have represented here explain how hatred is NOT part of what Christianity is. Haven't we? It really is so similar to the anti-Muslim rhetoric. Some people who call themselves Muslims shoot people, therefore all Muslims are evil. Some people who call themselves Christians spew hateful/racist/homophobic/whatever remarks, therefore all Christians will not be horrified by hateful and evil actions. Really? The climate in the country is really really sad. It's horrible. I think I really need a break from the TV, and newspaper, and especially the internet.
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Post by myshelly on Jun 14, 2016 20:10:55 GMT
I wish there was a different words for the kind of Christians who thought that way and the kind of Christians who don't.
I won't use the word Christian when talking about myself because I refuse to have anyone think I am aligned with the Conservative right wing bullshit that has somehow invaded the religion.
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 14, 2016 20:13:41 GMT
I wish there was a different words for the kind of Christians who thought that way and the kind of Christians who don't. I won't use the word Christian when talking about myself because I refuse to have anyone think I am aligned with the Conservative right wing bullshit that has somehow invaded the religion. I'm Presbyterian so if asked that's how I would identify myself. I think it's mostly the non-denominational people who use "Christian" in that way. But I know many many of them and they're just has horrified as the rest of mainline church folks.
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Post by hollymolly on Jun 14, 2016 20:38:14 GMT
Do you follow the Christian blogger Jen Hatmaker? A lot of my friends follow her on FB and I see her posts in their feeds. Today she posted something wonderful. I can't seem to link effectively, so I'm going to copy paste, and it's going to look awful. If you want to see it in it's original form, go to her facebook page.
"Can we have an important discussion together? And can we do it in love and respect?
I've been listening to my gay friends and leaders the last two days (Listening! It's so 1991), and this is what I am hearing: It is very difficult to accept the Christian lament for LGBTQ folks in their deaths when we've done such a brutal job of honoring them in their lives. It kind of feels like:
"We don't like you, we don't support you, we think you are a mess, we don't agree with you, we don't welcome you, we don't approve of you, we don't listen to you, we don't affirm you. But please accept our comfort and kind words this week." Anti-LGBTQ sentiment has paved a long runway to hate crimes. When the gay community is denied civil liberties and respect and dignity, when we make gay jokes, when we say 'that's so gay', when we turn our noses up or down, when we qualify every solitary statement of love with a caveat of disapproval, when we consistently disavow everything about the LGBTQ community, we create a culture ripe for hate. We are complicit.
We cannot with any integrity honor in death those we failed to honor in life. Can you see why the Christian outpouring of compassion toward Orlando feels so disingenuous? It seems like the only harm toward the LGBTQ community that will overcome Christian disapproval is a mass murder. We grieve not publicly for your dehumanization, suicide rates (individual deaths have failed to move us), excommunications, denial of liberties, hate crimes against you, religious exclusion, constant shame beatdown.
Christian love has yet to outpace Christian disdain.
I've seen Christians everywhere promising to pray for the victims and their families and their communities. I wonder what might happen if everyone actually does? What might God do if millions of Christians begin praying for comfort and love toward the LGBTQ community? Relational healing? Crazier things have happened.
Perhaps instead of saying "we're sad" this week, we should begin with "we're sorry." Not: We're sorry but... Not: We're sorry if... Not: We're sorry as long as... Just: We're sorry. Full stop.
I believe glory would inhabit that sort of humility and repentance, like it always has. NOBODY should be able to out-love God's people. We should be Grand Champion Lovers of People, and everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone should know it, see it, feel it, experience it, bask it in, and be drawn to it."
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LeaP
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Post by LeaP on Jun 14, 2016 20:54:08 GMT
I saw the "although" too and it made me sad. That said, many moons ago when I first started coming here there was a choir of "althoughs", now it is the minority of posters. I think most of the Christians on the board have come a long way.
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Post by mellyw on Jun 14, 2016 21:11:43 GMT
Do you follow the Christian blogger Jen Hatmaker? A lot of my friends follow her on FB and I see her posts in their feeds. Today she posted something wonderful. I can't seem to link effectively, so I'm going to copy paste, and it's going to look awful. If you want to see it in it's original form, go to her facebook page. "Can we have an important discussion together? And can we do it in love and respect? I've been listening to my gay friends and leaders the last two days (Listening! It's so 1991), and this is what I am hearing: It is very difficult to accept the Christian lament for LGBTQ folks in their deaths when we've done such a brutal job of honoring them in their lives. It kind of feels like: "We don't like you, we don't support you, we think you are a mess, we don't agree with you, we don't welcome you, we don't approve of you, we don't listen to you, we don't affirm you. But please accept our comfort and kind words this week." Anti-LGBTQ sentiment has paved a long runway to hate crimes. When the gay community is denied civil liberties and respect and dignity, when we make gay jokes, when we say 'that's so gay', when we turn our noses up or down, when we qualify every solitary statement of love with a caveat of disapproval, when we consistently disavow everything about the LGBTQ community, we create a culture ripe for hate. We are complicit. We cannot with any integrity honor in death those we failed to honor in life. Can you see why the Christian outpouring of compassion toward Orlando feels so disingenuous? It seems like the only harm toward the LGBTQ community that will overcome Christian disapproval is a mass murder. We grieve not publicly for your dehumanization, suicide rates (individual deaths have failed to move us), excommunications, denial of liberties, hate crimes against you, religious exclusion, constant shame beatdown. Christian love has yet to outpace Christian disdain. I've seen Christians everywhere promising to pray for the victims and their families and their communities. I wonder what might happen if everyone actually does? What might God do if millions of Christians begin praying for comfort and love toward the LGBTQ community? Relational healing? Crazier things have happened. Perhaps instead of saying "we're sad" this week, we should begin with "we're sorry." Not: We're sorry but... Not: We're sorry if... Not: We're sorry as long as... Just: We're sorry. Full stop. I believe glory would inhabit that sort of humility and repentance, like it always has. NOBODY should be able to out-love God's people. We should be Grand Champion Lovers of People, and everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone should know it, see it, feel it, experience it, bask it in, and be drawn to it." That is a truly wonderful blog post & I hope it may open some eyes.
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Post by birukitty on Jun 14, 2016 21:14:17 GMT
I feel outrage and sadness reading that statement too, although I haven't yet read the thread. I'm Catholic which to some Christians isn't even considered "Christian". I was taught love your neighbor as thyself. Love is so very important and not to hate. Love builds bridges and heals, hate divides us and destroys us.
I can't hate an entire group of people. Especially not because of something like sexual orientation. That is decided for them before birth, it is not their choice. Do people really still believe that sexual orientation is a choice given how much trouble and angst comes along with being gay in some families, communities? That's like choosing to hate a group of people based on the color of their skin.
Debbie in MD.
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Post by jennyap on Jun 14, 2016 21:14:25 GMT
Do you follow the Christian blogger Jen Hatmaker? A lot of my friends follow her on FB and I see her posts in their feeds. Today she posted something wonderful. I can't seem to link effectively, so I'm going to copy paste, and it's going to look awful. If you want to see it in it's original form, go to her facebook page. "Can we have an important discussion together? And can we do it in love and respect? I've been listening to my gay friends and leaders the last two days (Listening! It's so 1991), and this is what I am hearing: It is very difficult to accept the Christian lament for LGBTQ folks in their deaths when we've done such a brutal job of honoring them in their lives. It kind of feels like: "We don't like you, we don't support you, we think you are a mess, we don't agree with you, we don't welcome you, we don't approve of you, we don't listen to you, we don't affirm you. But please accept our comfort and kind words this week." Anti-LGBTQ sentiment has paved a long runway to hate crimes. When the gay community is denied civil liberties and respect and dignity, when we make gay jokes, when we say 'that's so gay', when we turn our noses up or down, when we qualify every solitary statement of love with a caveat of disapproval, when we consistently disavow everything about the LGBTQ community, we create a culture ripe for hate. We are complicit. We cannot with any integrity honor in death those we failed to honor in life. Can you see why the Christian outpouring of compassion toward Orlando feels so disingenuous? It seems like the only harm toward the LGBTQ community that will overcome Christian disapproval is a mass murder. We grieve not publicly for your dehumanization, suicide rates (individual deaths have failed to move us), excommunications, denial of liberties, hate crimes against you, religious exclusion, constant shame beatdown. Christian love has yet to outpace Christian disdain. I've seen Christians everywhere promising to pray for the victims and their families and their communities. I wonder what might happen if everyone actually does? What might God do if millions of Christians begin praying for comfort and love toward the LGBTQ community? Relational healing? Crazier things have happened. Perhaps instead of saying "we're sad" this week, we should begin with "we're sorry." Not: We're sorry but... Not: We're sorry if... Not: We're sorry as long as... Just: We're sorry. Full stop. I believe glory would inhabit that sort of humility and repentance, like it always has. NOBODY should be able to out-love God's people. We should be Grand Champion Lovers of People, and everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone should know it, see it, feel it, experience it, bask it in, and be drawn to it." You're right, that is wonderful. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 14, 2016 21:25:17 GMT
Do you follow the Christian blogger Jen Hatmaker? A lot of my friends follow her on FB and I see her posts in their feeds. Today she posted something wonderful. I can't seem to link effectively, so I'm going to copy paste, and it's going to look awful. If you want to see it in it's original form, go to her facebook page. "Can we have an important discussion together? And can we do it in love and respect? I've been listening to my gay friends and leaders the last two days (Listening! It's so 1991), and this is what I am hearing: It is very difficult to accept the Christian lament for LGBTQ folks in their deaths when we've done such a brutal job of honoring them in their lives. It kind of feels like: "We don't like you, we don't support you, we think you are a mess, we don't agree with you, we don't welcome you, we don't approve of you, we don't listen to you, we don't affirm you. But please accept our comfort and kind words this week." Anti-LGBTQ sentiment has paved a long runway to hate crimes. When the gay community is denied civil liberties and respect and dignity, when we make gay jokes, when we say 'that's so gay', when we turn our noses up or down, when we qualify every solitary statement of love with a caveat of disapproval, when we consistently disavow everything about the LGBTQ community, we create a culture ripe for hate. We are complicit. We cannot with any integrity honor in death those we failed to honor in life. Can you see why the Christian outpouring of compassion toward Orlando feels so disingenuous? It seems like the only harm toward the LGBTQ community that will overcome Christian disapproval is a mass murder. We grieve not publicly for your dehumanization, suicide rates (individual deaths have failed to move us), excommunications, denial of liberties, hate crimes against you, religious exclusion, constant shame beatdown. Christian love has yet to outpace Christian disdain. I've seen Christians everywhere promising to pray for the victims and their families and their communities. I wonder what might happen if everyone actually does? What might God do if millions of Christians begin praying for comfort and love toward the LGBTQ community? Relational healing? Crazier things have happened. Perhaps instead of saying "we're sad" this week, we should begin with "we're sorry." Not: We're sorry but... Not: We're sorry if... Not: We're sorry as long as... Just: We're sorry. Full stop. I believe glory would inhabit that sort of humility and repentance, like it always has. NOBODY should be able to out-love God's people. We should be Grand Champion Lovers of People, and everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone, everyone should know it, see it, feel it, experience it, bask it in, and be drawn to it." I don't know her, but I'll go look at her blog. However... what she posted is exactly what I'm talking about. She talks about "Christian disapproval..." and "a brutal job of honoring them in their lives"... etc. But she isn't talking about the people at my church. Or in so many of the churches in my circle of friends and colleagues. She isn't talking about my ministry, or the ministry of so many who I know. She's not acknowledging the mainline denominations who have changed their constitutions and rules and procedures to allow for ordination of gays and lesbians, to allow for same-sex marriage. She's not acknowledging all of us chaplains who pray for anyone who asks when they're in the hospital without caring who they are. She's doing just what the person did in the sentence I quoted -- lumping all Christians under one umbrella.
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caro
Drama Llama
Refupea 1130
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Jun 26, 2014 14:10:36 GMT
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Post by caro on Jun 14, 2016 21:32:27 GMT
I am not a right-wing, fundamental Christian. However, I AM a Christ follower and I boldly stand for him and his teachings. One being, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
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Sarah*H
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,015
Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jun 14, 2016 21:33:39 GMT
With just the one word, I don't know how you avoid it though. I stopped self-identifying as a Christian years ago for this reason. And you know exactly the type of Christian I'm talking about, right? So how do you fix it when it's one word that lumps everyone together? And unfortunately, the mainline denominations are dying and the evangelical, non-denominational churches that often openly flaunt the no politics from the pulpit rule are growing in spades so the sentiment in your OP is really no surprise given the current religious and political climate.
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M in Carolina
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Jun 29, 2014 12:11:41 GMT
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Post by M in Carolina on Jun 14, 2016 21:34:20 GMT
It's the most rabid, hateful "Christians" who get the most media attention, so I feel like I need to explain myself. Fear and hatemongering brings more traffic to news websites and sells more papers.
I would imagine that a lot of Muslims feel the same way--that people will think that they believe that "infidels" should be destroyed.
It is sad that qualifiers are needed.
I grew up in an environment that was full of judgement and hate and sadly know too many people who still believe that way. I have to voice my disagreement with their beliefs and actions so much that it's hard to remember that most people *don't* believe that way.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 23:30:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2016 21:48:40 GMT
However... what she posted is exactly what I'm talking about. She talks about "Christian disapproval..." and "a brutal job of honoring them in their lives"... etc. But she isn't talking about the people at my church. Or in so many of the churches in my circle of friends and colleagues. She isn't talking about my ministry, or the ministry of so many who I know. She's not acknowledging the mainline denominations who have changed their constitutions and rules and procedures to allow for ordination of gays and lesbians, to allow for same-sex marriage. She's not acknowledging all of us chaplains who pray for anyone who asks when they're in the hospital without caring who they are. She's doing just what the person did in the sentence I quoted -- lumping all Christians under one umbrella. This is done to Muslims. Constantly. It's not right no matter who is doing it to whom. I don't know what the solution is, and it makes me sad and scared.
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scrapngranny
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Only slightly senile
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Jun 25, 2014 23:21:30 GMT
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Post by scrapngranny on Jun 14, 2016 22:12:16 GMT
I was reading on another site that a Baptist minister spoke from the pulpit that the *gays got what they deserved*. When crap like that is spewed in a church it's not hard to figure out why some people think all Christians are like minded. The many Christians who don't feel this way appear to be the minority.
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MsKnit
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RefuPea #1406
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Jun 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
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Post by MsKnit on Jun 14, 2016 22:19:53 GMT
These are the same people who proclaim the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' nonsense. So, I am not surprised.
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Post by gar on Jun 14, 2016 22:40:34 GMT
These are the same people who proclaim the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' nonsense. So, I am not surprised. I have read that phrase (or words to that effect) many times on here. It has certainly had some influence on my thoughts and opinions of some Christians, but probably not in the way they intended.
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Post by quinlove on Jun 14, 2016 22:55:39 GMT
This topic sickens me. I don't really know where to begin or where I would stop. I will just briefly state my piece that I was brought up to believe that Christians were supposed to be "Christ like". Love one another, don't judge ( ha !! ) I actually only have those two main huge points - Love and not judging. That's it. I guess everything else would fall into place if those two little ( big ) acts were carried out by Christians / you know, like even non Christians act.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jun 14, 2016 23:05:14 GMT
These are the same people who proclaim the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' nonsense. So, I am not surprised. The problem for me is that phrases like that don't always just come from the 'rabid, hateful' Christians but sometimes from the quiet, contemplative ones who are just 'following the word of God' as well. One is easy to dismiss, the other not so much.
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MsKnit
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Post by MsKnit on Jun 14, 2016 23:11:26 GMT
These are the same people who proclaim the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' nonsense. So, I am not surprised. The problem for me is that phrases like that don't always just come from the 'rabid, hateful' Christians but sometimes from the quiet, contemplative ones who are just 'following the word of God' as well. One is easy to dismiss, the other not so much. There are always qualifiers. Those qualifiers negate any good intentioned words. IMO, this applies to Christians of any point on the spectrum.
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 15, 2016 0:06:49 GMT
However... what she posted is exactly what I'm talking about. She talks about "Christian disapproval..." and "a brutal job of honoring them in their lives"... etc. But she isn't talking about the people at my church. Or in so many of the churches in my circle of friends and colleagues. She isn't talking about my ministry, or the ministry of so many who I know. She's not acknowledging the mainline denominations who have changed their constitutions and rules and procedures to allow for ordination of gays and lesbians, to allow for same-sex marriage. She's not acknowledging all of us chaplains who pray for anyone who asks when they're in the hospital without caring who they are. She's doing just what the person did in the sentence I quoted -- lumping all Christians under one umbrella. This is done to Muslims. Constantly. It's not right no matter who is doing it to whom. I don't know what the solution is, and it makes me sad and scared. Yes, I said that in my original post. Painting a broad brush on any religious group, or any type of group, based on the actions of a vocal minority is not right.
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Post by AussieMeg on Jun 15, 2016 0:20:35 GMT
hollymolly I saw that on FB this morning too, she makes some great points. ETA: I just went and checked my FB, and it was actually a Pea friend who'd posted it, that's how I saw it!
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 23:30:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 0:21:20 GMT
This is done to Muslims. Constantly. It's not right no matter who is doing it to whom. I don't know what the solution is, and it makes me sad and scared. Yes, I said that in my original post. Painting a broad brush on any religious group, or any type of group, based on the actions of a vocal minority is not right. I'm sorry. I forgot to tell you that I wasn't saying that "at" you just because I quoted your post. I have to say that I agreed with much of what that FB post said. Everyone's view is skewed by their own personal circumstances. I live in an area where loving, genuine Christians are either the minority, or completely silent and/or complacent about what the hateful radicals are doing. I try to rein myself in when I start wondering where all the kind, loving Christians are when anti-marriage and bathroom laws are passed. I don't always succeed. Especially with my own bad experiences with religion while I was growing up.
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Post by monklady123 on Jun 15, 2016 0:30:27 GMT
I was reading on another site that a Baptist minister spoke from the pulpit that the *gays got what they deserved*. When crap like that is spewed in a church it's not hard to figure out why some people think all Christians are like minded. The many Christians who don't feel this way appear to be the minority. This is what my pastor posted on Facebook in response to that Baptist preacher: "NOT THE GOSPEL!!! NOT THE WAY OF JESUS!!! NOT THE GOSPEL!!! WITH ALL MY CLERGY CRED, I REBUKE MY FELLOW PREACHER!!!" My pastor does not use the word "rebuke" lightly, but she means it this time. And so do all the pastors who replied to her thread. They are NOT the minority. But they don't make the news. Maybe we should do something about that. I know my denomination issued a strong statement in response to this latest horror, but it's not "exciting" like this non-Christian Baptist preacher, so the media doesn't pick it up. One of our local UCC (United Church of Christ) is hosting an "an interfaith service of hope and healing" with many churches participating, as well as several local rabbis, and the local Islamic Center. This will be followed by a meal to break the Ramadan fast. This will probably make the news, but probably won't go viral on the internet. There are a lot of us out there, perhaps now is the time that we need to be more assertive.
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Sarah*H
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Post by Sarah*H on Jun 15, 2016 1:01:30 GMT
You say not the minority but do the numbers back that up? I'm a Presbyterian. I have friends who work(ed) in Lousville. Things are not good for the mainline denominations.
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Mystie
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Jun 25, 2014 19:53:37 GMT
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Post by Mystie on Jun 15, 2016 1:30:07 GMT
My random thoughts about this...
Most Christians do not hate gays, but I would argue that most Christians believe that being gay is a sin. And that belief leads to the kinds of behavior Jen Hatmaker mentioned above, from subtle face-to-face discrimination to actively trying to deny civil rights to an entire group, to calling for, supporting and committing murder--all done by people who claim to believe in the same basic tenets of faith. I can see why this equates in people's minds to Christian = anti-gay.
Of course it's not right to lump all the people in one group together and assume they act with one mind. But when you hear the same comments over and over and over again from the prominent leaders of the Christian faith, I can see why people assume that all Christians must feel this way. And because Christians are the largest faith group in this country and pull the most weight, that gives their words and actions extra oomph in the culture at large.
This is why I try to speak up where and when I can. I know I don't do enough, but I want the people in my life to know that I am NOT one of "those" Christians, that there are many of us out here who do not believe homosexuality is a sin and who do believe that LGBTQ+ people deserve full civil rights plus the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And I generally do not refer to myself as a Christian. That term has become heart-breakingly loaded and negative and it's shameful that we have let that happen. I call myself a believer.
It's discouraging to be a Christian right now. And the people who are making it discouraging are other Christians. It's terribly sad.
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scrapaddie
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Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
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Post by scrapaddie on Jun 15, 2016 1:39:35 GMT
I wish there was a different words for the kind of Christians who thought that way and the kind of Christians who don't. I won't use the word Christian when talking about myself because I refuse to have anyone think I am aligned with the Conservative right wing bullshit that has somehow invaded the religion. The kind who spew hatred are NOT Christians.... Even if they believe someone who thinks or lives differently is a sinner, God loves sinners (thank goodness for that or we would all be in trouble)
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Post by Anita on Jun 15, 2016 1:41:19 GMT
I completely agree with you. It makes me so sad. I am seriously considering a break from being online for a while.
Anita
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jun 15, 2016 1:46:10 GMT
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jun 15, 2016 2:01:03 GMT
Tonight I saw on the facebook page for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, my denomination, that it's sending comfort dogs to the hospitals in Orlando. We've had this ministry for a number of years. Dogs can comfort people in a way that sometimes humans can't.
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Post by hollymolly on Jun 15, 2016 2:02:30 GMT
I don't know her, but I'll go look at her blog. However... what she posted is exactly what I'm talking about. She talks about "Christian disapproval..." and "a brutal job of honoring them in their lives"... etc. But she isn't talking about the people at my church. Or in so many of the churches in my circle of friends and colleagues. She isn't talking about my ministry, or the ministry of so many who I know. She's not acknowledging the mainline denominations who have changed their constitutions and rules and procedures to allow for ordination of gays and lesbians, to allow for same-sex marriage. She's not acknowledging all of us chaplains who pray for anyone who asks when they're in the hospital without caring who they are. She's doing just what the person did in the sentence I quoted -- lumping all Christians under one umbrella. I saw that in some of the fb comments. I don't think she's lumping all Christians together, though. I think she is speaking to a very particular subset of Christians. I didn't feel like she was talking to me, for example, because I am a Christian who does not believe homosexuality is a sin, and I hope that I have never treated anyone like what she is describing. But there are many many Christians who believe differently than I do, and many many of them are doing and have been doing exactly what she is describing. A lot of those Christians do follow her. That was her audience. I personally know people who would benefit from hearing it. I see what you are saying though, and I apologize for misreading your OP. At first I thought what I posted supported your argument, that Christians should be doing these things anyway, without caveats or qualifiers. But I see now that your point was that this is what so many people think of Christians and it's upsetting. The "although" and "still" imply that compassion toward LGBTQ is unexpected behavior, like Christians are going above and beyond what they are called to do. It should absolutely be expected behavior from Christians, toward anyone, gay, straight, foreign, atheist, rich, poor, whatever. I wish that was what people thought of when they think of Christians, but the politically active vocal minority has colored perceptions so that people expect judgement and exclusion from Christians, instead of love and compassion. It breaks my heart.
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