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Post by hollymolly on Jun 15, 2016 2:06:40 GMT
My random thoughts about this... Most Christians do not hate gays, but I would argue that most Christians believe that being gay is a sin. And that belief leads to the kinds of behavior Jen Hatmaker mentioned above, from subtle face-to-face discrimination to actively trying to deny civil rights to an entire group, to calling for, supporting and committing murder--all done by people who claim to believe in the same basic tenets of faith. I can see why this equates in people's minds to Christian = anti-gay. Of course it's not right to lump all the people in one group together and assume they act with one mind. But when you hear the same comments over and over and over again from the prominent leaders of the Christian faith, I can see why people assume that all Christians must feel this way. And because Christians are the largest faith group in this country and pull the most weight, that gives their words and actions extra oomph in the culture at large. This is why I try to speak up where and when I can. I know I don't do enough, but I want the people in my life to know that I am NOT one of "those" Christians, that there are many of us out here who do not believe homosexuality is a sin and who do believe that LGBTQ+ people deserve full civil rights plus the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And I generally do not refer to myself as a Christian. That term has become heart-breakingly loaded and negative and it's shameful that we have let that happen. I call myself a believer. It's discouraging to be a Christian right now. And the people who are making it discouraging are other Christians. It's terribly sad. Oh my gosh, Mystie, this! So much this! Why is it that every time I spend a long time typing and re-typing a post that explains what I feel, I come back to the thread and someone else has said exactly what I meant, and said it so much better? Thank you for expressing my thoughts for me. |
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azredhead
Drama Llama
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Post by azredhead on Jun 15, 2016 2:23:39 GMT
Mystie hollymolly I keep wanting to type stuff and do the same but don't I did on the other thread just stating my upbringing. But yes that says it so well. So appreciated. I see both sides.so many friends and loved ones. JetBlue is also another one that is offering free flights to family's to go there. I love that. It's so hard to get breivance fares.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 15, 2016 3:28:04 GMT
I find it interesting that the first time I heard that Catholics aren't Christian I was honestly befuddled. I may not have been the most diligent of catechism students, but I was pretty sure Jesus was in there somewhere. But when I read comments from Mystie above about most Christians believe being gay is a sin - I wonder if they're right to throw the Catholics out of the Christian label. I have a HUGE Catholic family - some more devout than others. But I can honestly say that when my cousin came out - there was no controversy. No one wanted to pray for her, no one was convinced she was on the path to damnation - and I'm not just talking about the barely agnostic people like myself - my church every Sunday mother has absolutely no issue with it. I suppose as the vast majority of Catholics threw out the whole no birth control dictate, they're used to picking and choosing to believe what constitutes a "sin" on their own terms. |
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RedSquirrelUK
Drama Llama
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Location: The UK's beautiful West Country
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Post by RedSquirrelUK on Jun 15, 2016 9:51:10 GMT
I think that the statement you've quoted says a lot more about the person you're quoting than about most Christians. Very sad.
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Post by blondiec47 on Jun 15, 2016 10:01:14 GMT
I find it interesting that the first time I heard that Catholics aren't Christian I was honestly befuddled. I may not have been the most diligent of catechism students, but I was pretty sure Jesus was in there somewhere. But when I read comments from Mystie above about most Christians believe being gay is a sin - I wonder if they're right to throw the Catholics out of the Christian label. I have a HUGE Catholic family - some more devout than others. But I can honestly say that when my cousin came out - there was no controversy. No one wanted to pray for her, no one was convinced she was on the path to damnation - and I'm not just talking about the barely agnostic people like myself - my church every Sunday mother has absolutely no issue with it. I suppose as the vast majority of Catholics threw out the whole no birth control dictate, they're used to picking and choosing to believe what constitutes a "sin" on their own terms. Same here, I, too, have a mother that goes to church everyday and my brother is a professor of theology. When my cousin came out they were fine with it. My very non-religious aunt is the one that has an issue (she would not even sit with him at my wedding). |
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Post by brina on Jun 15, 2016 12:48:51 GMT
That was my quote and it was phrased that way in in response to the OP which stated that her friends were not particularly outraged by this shooting and went on to specify that her friend list was predominately christian. What I was trying to say was that in contrast my friend group, which also contains a large number of christians was pretty uniformly outraged.
I find it appalling that anybody would think that this event was okay because of the sexuality or gender identity of the victims.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 15, 2016 13:01:31 GMT
I have been astounded at the acts of generosity that I have been reading about. Acts that are not well publicized, just done without any fanfare. I wish there was a list somewhere because I would definitely support those businesses. |
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jun 15, 2016 17:47:41 GMT
I am seriously considering a break from being online for a while. This is not directed to you Anita, but just my musings on the topic. I, personally, don't ever want to hide from the ugliness because I want to know it's out there in the world. I can't stand against what I don't know exists. I need to know "who" in my world stands "where" on issues. I want to see the ugliness so I can appreciate the beauty. |
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Post by refugeepea on Jun 15, 2016 19:54:27 GMT
Most Christians do not hate gays, but I would argue that most Christians believe that being gay is a sin. And that belief leads to the kinds of behavior Jen Hatmaker mentioned above, from subtle face-to-face discrimination to actively trying to deny civil rights to an entire group, to calling for, supporting and committing murder--all done by people who claim to believe in the same basic tenets of faith. I can see why this equates in people's minds to Christian = anti-gay. I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Like another pea said their experiences color things. I almost see it as an apology. The way I was raised, my religion was the one true religion. Others should be respected, but we had everything right. It wasn't outright taught, but it was a feeling of we were better than everyone because the church was perfect. As long as we followed the commandments we were going to the highest degree of heaven. When I read although I'm Christian, I read it as "Although I'm Christian (and believe homosexuality is a sin) I am still outraged. Which translates to me "Although I am better than these sinners, no one should be murdered." I want to make it clear I am not referring to any specific peas. Again, I'm colored by my upbringing. When I hear I'm Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (some), and I was taught to love one another. I do judge. Because, to me, if you follow the tenants of the religion and are truly faithful, being gay is a major sin. Marriage within the church isn't allowed. It's hard to believe the sincerity in those statements. I will reiterate again it's my upbringing. You didn't question the rules, the commandments, or the new revelations. You can be excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or denied a temple recommend. You need one in order to enter LDS temples and go to the celestial kingdom. 1 temple recommend interview question: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" If you answer yes, your eternal salvation is in jeopardy. Sorry, for the long post, but I have mixed feelings when someone who is part of a religion that believes homosexuality is a sin says although and still. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 16, 2016 1:59:49 GMT
I find it interesting that the first time I heard that Catholics aren't Christian I was honestly befuddled. I may not have been the most diligent of catechism students, but I was pretty sure Jesus was in there somewhere. But when I read comments from Mystie above about most Christians believe being gay is a sin - I wonder if they're right to throw the Catholics out of the Christian label. I have a HUGE Catholic family - some more devout than others. But I can honestly say that when my cousin came out - there was no controversy. No one wanted to pray for her, no one was convinced she was on the path to damnation - and I'm not just talking about the barely agnostic people like myself - my church every Sunday mother has absolutely no issue with it. I suppose as the vast majority of Catholics threw out the whole no birth control dictate, they're used to picking and choosing to believe what constitutes a "sin" on their own terms. Same here, I, too, have a mother that goes to church everyday and my brother is a professor of theology. When my cousin came out they were fine with it. My very non-religious aunt is the one that has an issue (she would not even sit with him at my wedding). One of the many, many reasons I love the Catholic Church. I don't think Catholics judge others like Fundamental Christians do. We are concerned about our own sins. I also don't believe that being gay is a sin. How can it be? You don't choose to be born heterosexual so how can it be a sin to be born gay? As far as "acting out those desires"? Love is love. Expressing love is good. As long as two legal adults are expressing their love I'm all for it. It's not a sin to express your love as a heterosexual is it? Of course not. These are my beliefs. As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? Debbie in MD. |
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Post by refugeepea on Jun 16, 2016 2:16:55 GMT
As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? The Catholic church teaches that it is a sin and you should not act on these impulses. When someone says they are a devout Catholic and love their church, I tend to believe they adhere to the teachings. How can homosexuals not be judged as sinners (when they are in a relationship) if you are devout? That is what the church teaches. It's not a matter of judging really; it's fact if you are Catholic. I may be off on this because I was raised Mormon, but I thought this is one thing Catholics and Mormons do agree with. www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality |
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Post by ntsf on Jun 16, 2016 2:36:44 GMT
but we will all be judged as sinners. so it is not up to us to judge which is the worse sin... jesus forgave those who were "righteous" and those who were sinners...
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Post by birukitty on Jun 16, 2016 2:47:11 GMT
As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? The Catholic church teaches that it is a sin and you should not act on these impulses. When someone says they are a devout Catholic and love their church, I tend to believe they adhere to the teachings. How can homosexuals not be judged as sinners (when they are in a relationship) if you are devout? That is what the church teaches. It's not a matter of judging really; it's fact if you are Catholic. I may be off on this because I was raised Mormon, but I thought this is one thing Catholics and Mormons do agree with. www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexualitThis might be Catholic teaching but it is one where I believe the church is wrong. The church is made up of human beings and human beings are not flawless. It does not mean I will leave the Catholic church over it. A lot of Catholics do not follow the church's teachings 100%. Take birth control for instance. A lot of Catholics use birth control. Debbie in MD. |
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Post by Merge on Jun 16, 2016 2:53:23 GMT
As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? The Catholic church teaches that it is a sin and you should not act on these impulses. When someone says they are a devout Catholic and love their church, I tend to believe they adhere to the teachings. How can homosexuals not be judged as sinners (when they are in a relationship) if you are devout? That is what the church teaches. It's not a matter of judging really; it's fact if you are Catholic. I may be off on this because I was raised Mormon, but I thought this is one thing Catholics and Mormons do agree with. www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexualityThis is Catholic teaching, but I think where Catholics and Mormons differ is on the idea of earthly judgment. There is no temple recommend in the Catholic Church and no interview with the Bishop to determine your worthiness. There is no forced exclusion of sinners from the sacraments. Technically, those in a state of mortal sin (and sex outside of church marriage would qualify) are not supposed to receive communion, but that is between you and God, and most modern Catholics are happy to leave it that way. You could marry your same-sex partner on Saturday and show up at Mass on Sunday, and no one is going to bar you from the door or the communion rail. You could confess hot gay sex to your priest on Wednesday, and no one including that priest is going to tell you you're unworthy to see your sister get married in the cathedral on Saturday. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 16, 2016 2:54:54 GMT
As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? The Catholic church teaches that it is a sin and you should not act on these impulses. When someone says they are a devout Catholic and love their church, I tend to believe they adhere to the teachings. How can homosexuals not be judged as sinners (when they are in a relationship) if you are devout? That is what the church teaches. It's not a matter of judging really; it's fact if you are Catholic. I may be off on this because I was raised Mormon, but I thought this is one thing Catholics and Mormons do agree with. www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexualityThe simplest way i can answer it is that the Catholics I know, simply don't spend their time worrying about others who are sinners. As I mentioned, I think a huge reason is that something like 90% of all Catholics are contrary to the dictates of the church when it comes to birth control. I know in my family, ending with my grandmother's generation - where they had anywhere from 9-15! children following the whole God won't give you more than you can handle dictate - no one follows the Church's edict about no birth control. Then you layer on the divorces, premarital sex, and the 5,000 other ways they, their children, parents and everyone they know are sinning - it's hard to get too judgmental about gays. |
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Post by secondlife on Jun 16, 2016 3:12:23 GMT
but we will all be judged as sinners. so it is not up to us to judge which is the worse sin... jesus forgave those who were "righteous" and those who were sinners... Yep... And I do think it gets even better than that. While we will all be judged as sinners, the righteousness and perfection and sinless nature of Jesus is credited to us as our own. This is - in theological terms - called imputed righteousness. It is freedom from either fretting or fear. The same righteousness is mine and is yours and neither of us earned it ourselves. This is such good news for all our shortcomings. It is enough. There is freedom in this. On earth we are still working out what that looks like and we don't always get it right. Me too for sure. I sometimes forget. But there is freedom in not needing to worry about other people or their sin, but rejoicing in the love of Jesus who covered it all. This is why I believe in Jesus, right here. How that walks out in my own life is that I'm not invested in the concept of sin alone - I can easily accept that humans sin. Me, you, my priest, cloistered nun, everybody. I want to live a life that pleases God but I don't think you do that by focusing on avoiding sin, I think you do that by focusing on loving God. Think open arms, not wagging fingers. That is what I want to show in the world. So this question of whether homosexuality is a sin is so beside the point. Is, isn't, not sure, no problem - Jesus has this and let's be more like Jesus together. Just thinking out loud. Goodnight all. |
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Post by birukitty on Jun 16, 2016 3:26:36 GMT
The Catholic church teaches that it is a sin and you should not act on these impulses. When someone says they are a devout Catholic and love their church, I tend to believe they adhere to the teachings. How can homosexuals not be judged as sinners (when they are in a relationship) if you are devout? That is what the church teaches. It's not a matter of judging really; it's fact if you are Catholic. I may be off on this because I was raised Mormon, but I thought this is one thing Catholics and Mormons do agree with. www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexualityThe simplest way i can answer it is that the Catholics I know, simply don't spend their time worrying about others who are sinners. As I mentioned, I think a huge reason is that something like 90% of all Catholics are contrary to the dictates of the church when it comes to birth control. I know in my family, ending with my grandmother's generation - where they had anywhere from 9-15! children following the whole God won't give you more than you can handle dictate - no one follows the Church's edict about no birth control. Then you layer on the divorces, premarital sex, and the 5,000 other ways they, their children, parents and everyone they know are sinning - it's hard to get too judgmental about gays. Thanks Darcy. That's a perfect explanation and a much better one than the one I gave. And you are right. We simply don't worry about other people's sins. We don't judge other people's sins and that's what I was commenting on in the first place. Debbie in MD. |
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Post by gar on Jun 16, 2016 6:59:21 GMT
but we will all be judged as sinners. so it is not up to us to judge which is the worse sin... jesus forgave those who were "righteous" and those who were sinners... This seems to be a problem for many. Apparently this is a worse sin than their own gluttony or coveting or whatever. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 11:21:50 GMT
I was reading on another site that a Baptist minister spoke from the pulpit that the *gays got what they deserved*. When crap like that is spewed in a church it's not hard to figure out why some people think all Christians are like minded. The many Christians who don't feel this way appear to be the minority. I hope they lose their religious tax exemption. That's an awful thing to say. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 11:29:27 GMT
Most Christians do not hate gays, but I would argue that most Christians believe that being gay is a sin. And that belief leads to the kinds of behavior Jen Hatmaker mentioned above, from subtle face-to-face discrimination to actively trying to deny civil rights to an entire group, to calling for, supporting and committing murder--all done by people who claim to believe in the same basic tenets of faith. I can see why this equates in people's minds to Christian = anti-gay. I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Like another pea said their experiences color things. I almost see it as an apology. The way I was raised, my religion was the one true religion. Others should be respected, but we had everything right. It wasn't outright taught, but it was a feeling of we were better than everyone because the church was perfect. As long as we followed the commandments we were going to the highest degree of heaven. When I read although I'm Christian, I read it as "Although I'm Christian (and believe homosexuality is a sin) I am still outraged. Which translates to me "Although I am better than these sinners, no one should be murdered." I want to make it clear I am not referring to any specific peas. Again, I'm colored by my upbringing. When I hear I'm Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (some), and I was taught to love one another. I do judge. Because, to me, if you follow the tenants of the religion and are truly faithful, being gay is a major sin. Marriage within the church isn't allowed. It's hard to believe the sincerity in those statements. I will reiterate again it's my upbringing. You didn't question the rules, the commandments, or the new revelations. You can be excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or denied a temple recommend. You need one in order to enter LDS temples and go to the celestial kingdom. 1 temple recommend interview question: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" If you answer yes, your eternal salvation is in jeopardy. Sorry, for the long post, but I have mixed feelings when someone who is part of a religion that believes homosexuality is a sin says although and still. I am LDS and have many gay friends that I love dearly. I've never been denied my temple recommend. Then again there are a lot of things I struggle with in the church. Some of my gay friends are the most Christlike people I know. One is a psychiatrist who works with veterans who have PTSD. I don't think our Savior's love is dependent on our sexual orientation. If anything I believe our Savior would go to the gay communities first because He knows what it's like to be considered different and hated in the world! |
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by raindancer on Jun 16, 2016 12:00:36 GMT
I'm not sure how to word this, but I'll try. Like another pea said their experiences color things. I almost see it as an apology. The way I was raised, my religion was the one true religion. Others should be respected, but we had everything right. It wasn't outright taught, but it was a feeling of we were better than everyone because the church was perfect. As long as we followed the commandments we were going to the highest degree of heaven. When I read although I'm Christian, I read it as "Although I'm Christian (and believe homosexuality is a sin) I am still outraged. Which translates to me "Although I am better than these sinners, no one should be murdered." I want to make it clear I am not referring to any specific peas. Again, I'm colored by my upbringing. When I hear I'm Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist (some), and I was taught to love one another. I do judge. Because, to me, if you follow the tenants of the religion and are truly faithful, being gay is a major sin. Marriage within the church isn't allowed. It's hard to believe the sincerity in those statements. I will reiterate again it's my upbringing. You didn't question the rules, the commandments, or the new revelations. You can be excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or denied a temple recommend. You need one in order to enter LDS temples and go to the celestial kingdom. 1 temple recommend interview question: "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" If you answer yes, your eternal salvation is in jeopardy. Sorry, for the long post, but I have mixed feelings when someone who is part of a religion that believes homosexuality is a sin says although and still. I am LDS and have many gay friends that I love dearly. I've never been denied my temple recommend. Then again there are a lot of things I struggle with in the church. Some of my gay friends are the most Christlike people I know. One is a psychiatrist who works with veterans who have PTSD. I don't think our Savior's love is dependent on our sexual orientation. If anything I believe our Savior would go to the gay communities first because He knows what it's like to be considered different and hated in the world! If you were gay, you would be denied your recommend if you "act" on your gayness. If you are legally married but you are gay, still cannot go to the temple. |
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Post by kristi521 on Jun 16, 2016 12:08:51 GMT
I am not a right-wing, fundamental Christian. However, I AM a Christ follower and I boldly stand for him and his teachings. One being, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love this!!! |
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Post by blondiec47 on Jun 16, 2016 13:01:21 GMT
Same here, I, too, have a mother that goes to church everyday and my brother is a professor of theology. When my cousin came out they were fine with it. My very non-religious aunt is the one that has an issue (she would not even sit with him at my wedding). One of the many, many reasons I love the Catholic Church. I don't think Catholics judge others like Fundamental Christians do. We are concerned about our own sins. I also don't believe that being gay is a sin. How can it be? You don't choose to be born heterosexual so how can it be a sin to be born gay? As far as "acting out those desires"? Love is love. Expressing love is good. As long as two legal adults are expressing their love I'm all for it. It's not a sin to express your love as a heterosexual is it? Of course not. These are my beliefs. As far as those people who believe it is a sin for gay people to act out those feelings? Fine, then don't have sex with a person of your same gender. Problem solved. Deal with your own sins. You have no business nor should you be judging anyone else for theirs. What was that saying? Judge not lest ye be judged? Debbie in MD. Exactly--what 2 (or more) people do in the privacy of their bedroom is no ones' business but their own. As far as PDA's I dislike most PDA's regardless of the gender of the people involved. I am fine with hand holding, peck kisses etc. I feel that when I become a perfect person then I can judge, until that time I will refrain from caring who one has a relationship with and what they do inside that relationship |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 13:02:49 GMT
I am LDS and have many gay friends that I love dearly. I've never been denied my temple recommend. Then again there are a lot of things I struggle with in the church. Some of my gay friends are the most Christlike people I know. One is a psychiatrist who works with veterans who have PTSD. I don't think our Savior's love is dependent on our sexual orientation. If anything I believe our Savior would go to the gay communities first because He knows what it's like to be considered different and hated in the world! If you were gay, you would be denied your recommend if you "act" on your gayness. If you are legally married but you are gay, still cannot go to the temple. It's something I don't agree with and I'm still upset by children not being able to be baptized at 8. |
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raindancer
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by raindancer on Jun 16, 2016 13:38:04 GMT
Here is how I feel about this.
If you choose to align yourself with an organization that believes that gay people are sinners and will face a consequence of punishment by god, or use a book that states the same, then you should be expected by and large to be "lumped" in with your fellow followers.
If you are Mormon, but don't follow or believe all the tenets of the church, then why are you still Mormon? If you are Catholic, same? You can say "Well I don't believe that!" but your book and your religious leaders who you allow to speak on your behalf do.
If you are a Christian but your church does allow gays in, marries them, etc. Ok, great. But your book still says something else, and you should expect to be doubted in the sincerity of your statements, at least up front.
Because on it's face if you say you affiliate with the Christian or Islamic faith, then I cannot possibly know that you personally disagree with that doctrine unless you tell me you do.
And IMO, if you remain in a church that does speak out, while keeping to yourself about how you really feel, you are complicit. If you don't want to be considered a part of the problem then you will have to do some serious defending publicly, or you will have to accept that people will lump you in.
If it's not your "thing" to become politically active, particularly against what your church believes, that's fine. But don't expect to be let off the hook. Mormons, Catholics, and others have a lot of political sway in certain parts of the country and the world, if you are a Mormon then you don't get to say that you support gays when your church blatantly supported Prop 8 in California. If you are Catholic, you can go ahead and use birth control, but don't for a second believe that your private use isn't directly negatively impacting someone else somewhere in a less free country where the Catholic church owns your reproductive rights.
These churches and their beliefs directly lead to action against people and it harms them. Sometimes it kills them. And if you don't like being associated with the deaths of other people, then you will have to make a decision about that. But as long as you label yourself with the tag Christian, or Catholic, or Mormon, or Muslim, I (and others) will continue to doubt the sincerity of your concerns and likelihood of your future actions to go against that teaching and stand up for what is right. That post by Jen Hatmaker, IMO is spot on and if you feel insulted by it, maybe it's time to really dig deep about why that is.
But for allies, for the LGTBQ community, a lot of this outpouring of love and concern right now feels kind of insulting. I know many of my friends, my friends children are very hurt right now. And for some of them, a prayer for them feels more like a slap in the face.
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