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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 2:43:11 GMT
I have so many mixed feelings regarding how so many of you just don't get it. If you stood in front of me pleading for me to care about something that directly impacts your day to day movements as a citizen of this country my silence, my hesitation to move makes me a monster. Really. Over the years I've thrown countless clicks and votes and silent wishes of support. You guys can't even pretend to give a fuck about what's going on. I really am at a loss. I'm willing to bet most, if not every last Pea in existence cares very much about this and can see how much it affects you personally, not to mention many other Peas. It's horrible that some people have to worry about that while others don't. I think there's a difference in your perception of what constitutes not caring, though. I don't see anyone here saying they don't care and I'm wondering what you're basing that idea on. I'll agree with this! |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 2:44:42 GMT
I'm not going to speak for mzza111 but I thought it was a fucked up comment as well. The problem is the false equivalency. Bruises and scratches that are a part of your job are NOT THE SAME as execution style murder. Discussing both as if they are the same (I.e. we all need more civility") trivializes the death of two men. I don't see that at all. I'm seeing that it's one very important part of the problem that cops have to worry about and that the hate of cops and the violence towards them when they do their job contributes to how even good cops are forced to approach each and every situation. And it SHOULD be discussed. You can't have a one sided conversation where we're only allowed to condemn the police and then expect anything productive to come from that. ETA: It is anything BUT deflection. I agree with this too! |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 2:45:36 GMT
I didn't read the comment from @leowife that way at all. I don't think she was trivializing death of these two men or deflecting. I don't think we'll make inroads in improving the relationship between LEO and citizens until we can be forthright and honest about what's happening. As a white woman, I don't pretend to understand racial profiling, but I do listen when people talk about fearing for their children "driving while black." That's wrong, and the more we humanize and talk about these incidents as real people - the more I think things will improve. I don't think there's any question that many LEOs and their families fear for their safety every single day. Talking about the violence between LEOs and their communities doesn't trivialize this or any other incident. How are we supporting them, or determining that they're beyond capable of doing their job and are now at a greater risk to their communities their duty is to protect. This^^^ |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 2:59:24 GMT
I'm willing to bet most, if not every last Pea in existence cares very much about this and can see how much it affects you personally, not to mention many other Peas. It's horrible that some people have to worry about that while others don't. I think there's a difference in your perception of what constitutes not caring, though. I don't see anyone here saying they don't care and I'm wondering what you're basing that idea on. I'll agree with this! I disagree. I don't think people feel that way and I think the readership, commentary (from the usual peas) and deflection proves this. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 8, 2016 3:02:53 GMT
Where's the NRA with their outrage for Philando Castile's right to carry? That's an interesting question. The legality of a person of color being allowed to own a firearm in order to defend themselves, their families and their property is definitely part of the pro gun stance. The idea that government must always be considered a possible threat is behind the 2nd amendment's right to defend oneself. I wonder if this case will get things moving in a different way if they do get involved? We have Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump poised to get the party nominations for president, so stranger things than the NRA getting involved in police brutality are already happening within this country. Olan, iamkristinl16, Peace Sign, and others whose names I didn't just read onthread - I can't imagine how personally this feels to you. I was listening to Spike Lee on CNN radio - I couldn't see who was speaking, but I think it was Spike - saying that if she hadn't been able to video this as it was happening, it's very likely that her child would have been taken away until she could be investigated too. The group that he was on with were calling Diamond a hero for her brave and calm coverage as it was happening. |
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Post by LiLi on Jul 8, 2016 3:18:11 GMT
Not "whites," "cops" or "blacks..." Just humans. The other terms are a charade, fake rules created by people. Fake rules that kill, murder and destroy humanity. It's all wrong  I am so tired. Until people see, the world will not change. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 3:44:33 GMT
I disagree. I don't think people feel that way and I think the readership, commentary (from the usual peas) and deflection proves this. Well, I think you are wrong, I don't think people are deflecting and most have stated how awful the situation is. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 4:05:01 GMT
I disagree. I don't think people feel that way and I think the readership, commentary (from the usual peas) and deflection proves this. Well, I think you are wrong, I don't think people are deflecting and most have stated how awful the situation is. I think it's important to do more than state how awful you feel and I do see a lot of people shifting focus (black people commit a lot crimes, they kill each other why not focus on that first, let's allow an investigation. It's always the same here. Like I said over the years I've rooted for you women. Fertility issues, special needs kids, illness, death in the family, photo contest whatever. Generally rooted for good things to happen for you. I kinda knew how many of you felt. It still hurts. I think overall black people are a really resilient group of people and I hope this is just another "blip" in our journey here in America. Kind of off topic: I can't post photos but I was just in Charleston celebrating an anniversary and saw these black "Gullah Angels" and the little tag read "the Gullah woman who carried the load and did what was requested of her with dignity and grace".....I think a lot to white people are finding it hard to accept the truth. It's either glossed over or completely ignored. Requested? I wonder how humanity will explain this moment in time. How will they spin it? Will black people take this on the chin and forgive like all the other instances of abuse? I woke up at 4:30ish with the idea of meditating and saw the Castile story and literally broke down in tears. I live in a mostly Latin community but the black people I saw today almost looked shell shocked. I've never had a day like this before. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 8, 2016 6:39:49 GMT
Wow just wow! Give me a f'ing break! At least he is coming home...unlike 2 men who were killed for no apparent reason! Shitty response, mzza111 - until you find out her husband is a racist killer who didn't put his life and well being on the line every time he goes to work for people like you and I, you don't have the right to make such a statement. I, for one, is pleased that he is coming home and hope he does every day that he does his job protecting the community he works for (with). Not to mention that just a few hours after she posted, 11 officers were shot in Dallas as they walked along protecting peaceful protesters. These officers were ambushed in a brutal attack and at least one civilian was also shot. At this time, 4 officers have died and one suspect is still firing on police as they try to negotiate with him. |
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Post by miominmio on Jul 8, 2016 6:46:57 GMT
I am so disgusted that we are still telling our dark skinned children to act subservient to the massa in a law enforcement uniform to TRY to avoid getting shot. I'm telling my white kid the same thing....and we're in a country where the police normally don't carry guns. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 8, 2016 7:14:23 GMT
Talking about the violence between LEOs and their communities doesn't trivialize this or any other incident. It absolutely does not. I see what you're saying, but I also see a sort of chicken or egg scenario. Black people are angry with the police for good reason. Police do nothing but harass them and profile them in many areas. They're fed up. But which came first? Slavery came first. We are still dealing with the remnants of people of color being enslaved for two hundred years within this country. After slaves were freed, people of color faced laws that denied them equality. Families still bear the scars. They still remember. They still fear. And sometimes, they still suffer new hurts. By insisting that only one side of the scenario is proper to speak of, you perpetuate the discord. The sad reality is that violence is an all-to-common occurance in urban black communities. (far more blacks are murdered by other blacks than are murdered by LEO; far more). This ends up creating a hostile environment where everyone acts first and thinks later. I'm not saying the cops here were right but I think the entire issue has to be addressed rather than merely focusing on the cops who act inappropriately. My late husband was volunteer EMS in a very rural area. There was a very real threat to his welfare each and every call he responded to. He was a vet but he still went through police training so he could be better prepared for any situation. You have to multiply the threats he faced many times over to even come close to what LEO faces in larger, truly violent urban communities. We all need to seriously recognize the threats LEO allow themselves to be subjected to through every shift just so others may live better lives. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 11:41:15 GMT
I think it would be a great exercise to read the commentary on the "What's Happening In Dallas" thread.
It's hard for you to feel empathy/sympathy for people who don't look like you. I thought of the LEO kids who lost their daddies in Dallas because that's not a big stretch for me but reading through the comments in this thread no one expressed any feelings about Mr. Sterling's 15 year old son breaking down during the news conference or the fact that Castile's step daughter was in the backseat (the officer fired into a car with a child present) and witnessed him be shot in cold blood. Then a man who looked like the person who just shot her step father removed her from the backseat and then placed her mother in handcuffs. We are not monsters. We don't want to harm you and if history is any indication I have way more reason to be afraid of white people than you have to be afraid of me.
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Post by mari on Jul 8, 2016 12:01:22 GMT
I think it would be a great exercise to read the commentary on the "What's Happening In Dallas" thread. It's hard for you to feel empathy/sympathy for people who don't look like you. I thought of the LEO kids who lost their daddies in Dallas because that's not a big stretch for me but reading through the comments in this thread no one expressed any feelings about Mr. Sterling's 15 year old son breaking down during the news conference or the fact that Castile's step daughter was in the backseat (the officer fired into a car with a child present) and witnessed him be shot in cold blood. Then a man who looked like the person who just shot her step father removed her from the backseat and then placed her mother in handcuffs. We are not monsters. We don't want to harm you and if history is any indication I have way more reason to be afraid of white people than you have to be afraid of me. It wasn't hard for people to express their empathy/sympathy for a gorilla not to long ago, either. No one posted on that thread wondering why there weren't threads started for other killed animals. The simple truth is that "all" lives don't seem to include everyone. I haven't read most of this thread, but I read enough. I've been crying since I read about Philandro. The first thing I saw yesterday morning was the hashtag with his name and my heart sank because I knew what it meant. I next saw the video where the 4-year-old baby was trying to console his girlfriend, who was inexplicably handcuffed and held in custody overnight. I read about his work with his school he'd worked at since 2002 and how he memorized the names and allergies of the kids who he fed for a living. I read about how he fist-bumped kids and gave extra food to kids who were hungry and showed daily kindness and patience to a child with autism. I'm so sad for his family and the children who have lost his presence in their lives. RIP Alton. RIP Philandro. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 8, 2016 12:04:30 GMT
I think it would be a great exercise to read the commentary on the "What's Happening In Dallas" thread. It's hard for you to feel empathy/sympathy for people who don't look like you. I thought of the LEO kids who lost their daddies in Dallas because that's not a big stretch for me but reading through the comments in this thread no one expressed any feelings about Mr. Sterling's 15 year old son breaking down during the news conference or the fact that Castile's step daughter was in the backseat (the officer fired into a car with a child present) and witnessed him be shot in cold blood. Then a man who looked like the person who just shot her step father removed her from the backseat and then placed her mother in handcuffs. We are not monsters. We don't want to harm you and if history is any indication I have way more reason to be afraid of white people than you have to be afraid of me. It isn't that hard to find empathy. My son lives in Baton Rouge. He and I were texting during the press conference and both of us were horrified for that child (and I admit, I had a fleeting moment of anger for the mother to allow her child not even 24 hours after the death of his father be on stage front and center during a press conference-that is just too much emotion for the public.) The baby in the backseat trying to comfort her mother? Brought me to tears and shouts at the tv. Just because I didn't comment on it doesn't me that I am not effected. Sometimes it is hard for me, a middle aged white woman, to find the right words. I don't want to sound patronizing. I don't want to sound like I know what people are going through. I want to express my outrage without it sounding like I *don't* have the 'well, I obviously understand because I have a black friend' attitude. And what makes me even sadder is that is that I feel like sometimes my sympathy/empathy doesn't matter because it isn't my experience. So I often keep my thoughts to myself. In spite of growing up in the south, I am not afraid of black people. I suffered more at the hands of my upper middle class white husband to be fooled into thinking that the boogie man is black. I think it is terribly unfair to think that we don't care. I care. I care so much more than you are giving some of credit for. You and I may not look alike, but as the saying goes, we bleed the same and I bet we could be good friends. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 12:04:48 GMT
I think it would be a great exercise to read the commentary on the "What's Happening In Dallas" thread. It's hard for you to feel empathy/sympathy for people who don't look like you. I thought of the LEO kids who lost their daddies in Dallas because that's not a big stretch for me but reading through the comments in this thread no one expressed any feelings about Mr. Sterling's 15 year old son breaking down during the news conference or the fact that Castile's step daughter was in the backseat (the officer fired into a car with a child present) and witnessed him be shot in cold blood. Then a man who looked like the person who just shot her step father removed her from the backseat and then placed her mother in handcuffs. We are not monsters. We don't want to harm you and if history is any indication I have way more reason to be afraid of white people than you have to be afraid of me. It wasn't hard for people to express their empathy/sympathy for a gorilla not to long ago, either. No one posted on that thread wondering why there weren't threads started for other killed animals. The simple truth is that "all" lives don't seem to include everyone. I haven't read most of this thread, but I read enough. I've been crying since I read about Philandro. The first thing I saw yesterday morning was the hashtag with his name and my heart sank because I knew what it meant. I next saw the video where the 4-year-old baby was trying to console his girlfriend, who was inexplicably handcuffed and held in custody overnight. I read about his work with his school he'd worked at since 2002 and how he memorized the names and allergies of the kids who he fed for a living. I read about how he fist-bumped kids and gave extra food to kids who were hungry and showed daily kindness and patience to a child with autism. I'm so sad for his family and the children who have lost his presence in their lives. RIP Alton. RIP Philandro. Yes I did see the footage where his fiancé finally breaks down. It's a quick moment because that little girl speaks up and comforts her. No pea even seemed to register that the officer shot into a car with a 4yr old. My heart says mom would have been shot too if the cameras were not rolling. I think she knew that. How do you feel when you listen to her speak and describe what happened? |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 12:18:21 GMT
I think it would be a great exercise to read the commentary on the "What's Happening In Dallas" thread. It's hard for you to feel empathy/sympathy for people who don't look like you. I thought of the LEO kids who lost their daddies in Dallas because that's not a big stretch for me but reading through the comments in this thread no one expressed any feelings about Mr. Sterling's 15 year old son breaking down during the news conference or the fact that Castile's step daughter was in the backseat (the officer fired into a car with a child present) and witnessed him be shot in cold blood. Then a man who looked like the person who just shot her step father removed her from the backseat and then placed her mother in handcuffs. We are not monsters. We don't want to harm you and if history is any indication I have way more reason to be afraid of white people than you have to be afraid of me. It isn't that hard to find empathy. My son lives in Baton Rouge. He and I were texting during the press conference and both of us were horrified for that child (and I admit, I had a fleeting moment of anger for the mother to allow her child not even 24 hours after the death of his father be on stage front and center during a press conference-that is just too much emotion for the public.) The baby in the backseat trying to comfort her mother? Brought me to tears and shouts at the tv. Just because I didn't comment on it doesn't me that I am not effected. Sometimes it is hard for me, a middle aged white woman, to find the right words. I don't want to sound patronizing. I don't want to sound like I know what people are going through. I want to express my outrage without it sounding like I *don't* have the 'well, I obviously understand because I have a black friend' attitude. And what makes me even sadder is that is that I feel like sometimes my sympathy/empathy doesn't matter because it isn't my experience. So I often keep my thoughts to myself. In spite of growing up in the south, I am not afraid of black people. I suffered more at the hands of my upper middle class white husband to be fooled into thinking that the boogie man is black. I think it is terribly unfair to think that we don't care. I care. I care so much more than you are giving some of credit for. You and I may not look alike, but as the saying goes, we bleed the same and I bet we could be good friends. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. My only point was if you compare the sentiments in both threads there is something to be taken from the lack of concern. Not only just a lack of empathy but also a willingness to make us monsters. You think it unfair but imagine how I am feeling. I seriously have sat in bed praying for miracles for you women and if I was shot by police I am 100% certain peas would tarnish my name and say I had a smart mouth. Please think about what you really truly feel about black people and how it contributes to this. Everything that is big and black doesn't need to be shot dead. That Cards of Humanity shit isn't just laughs over drinks. Black people haven't been treated fairly in the past and America is failing us again. If anything I've said doesn't resonate with you thats fine. I think quiet personal reflection is best right now. I don't have any answers. But I (we) are hurting. |
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Post by Laurie on Jul 8, 2016 14:34:27 GMT
I don't have any words that seem adequate at this time. So I will keep it simple. I am sorry Olan. So very sorry.  |
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Post by peasapie on Jul 8, 2016 15:24:58 GMT
I believe the standard is to shut off your car, roll down your window, turn on interior light if it's night, and put your hands on the steering wheel. Don't go reaching for things, and don't get out of the car unless asked to. When they ask for license/registration, ask if you can get it from glove compartment. I taught my son and daughter these things. SaveSaveAnd that is apparently what this man did. He asked to reach for his ID to show he had a license to carry a gun and then was shot when reaching for his back pocket. So if you follow what the police ask and move slowly and still get shot, then what? I have no idea. SaveSave |
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Post by peasapie on Jul 8, 2016 15:26:40 GMT
I am so disgusted that we are still telling our dark skinned children to act subservient to the massa in a law enforcement uniform to TRY to avoid getting shot. Who said to do that? SaveSave |
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Post by Scrappea on Jul 8, 2016 15:54:23 GMT
Stupid question - in the video where the gentleman was shot in the car, does the video contain the actual shooting and anything leading up to it, or is it just the aftermath? I haven't been able to find this information out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 16:00:56 GMT
Stupid question - in the video where the gentleman was shot in the car, does the video contain the actual shooting and anything leading up to it, or is it just the aftermath? I haven't been able to find this information out. Good question. I too would love to know what happened prior to the shooting. Hopefully the officer was wearing a body cam. I would really REALLY like to see ALL officers across the nation wearing body cams. |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 8, 2016 16:07:19 GMT
How do you feel when you listen to her speak and describe what happened? i feel like it could happen to anyone that doesn't 'fit the mold' he was a card-carrying CCW holder - he told the cop he had a weapon on him he did everything right - except for what he looked like i can not claim to know his struggle but i can tell you how it feels for your man/husband/bf to be stereotyped gina |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 16:10:11 GMT
How do you feel when you listen to her speak and describe what happened? i feel like it could happen to anyone that doesn't 'fit the mold' he was a card-carrying CCW holder - he told the cop he had a weapon on him he did everything right - except for what he looked like i can not claim to know his struggle but i can tell you how it feels for your man/husband/bf to be stereotyped gina In the video I saw, I saw the woman give the narrative of what happened. Is there another video that shows what happened that led up to the actual shooting? I guess I'd like to see that before making the assumption that he "did everything right". |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 8, 2016 16:12:14 GMT
i don't KNOW that he did - but from the facts that are out - he seems like he did
maybe he didn't - i don't know
i am trying to figure out what he could have done to make that cop shoot him -
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 16:20:40 GMT
i don't KNOW that he did - but from the facts that are out - he seems like he did maybe he didn't - i don't know i am trying to figure out what he could have done to make that cop shoot him - But the "facts" are the woman's narrative. That narrative could be absolutely 100% factual in every way. But what if there's more to the story? We don't know the whole story (unless there's a video out there prior to the shooting) and we only know one side. We know what she's telling us. But we don't know that it's true or complete. That's why I asked if there was any other video. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Jul 8, 2016 16:27:04 GMT
It seems that, in most cities, police are undertrained and overmilitarized. Officers generally use the excuse that they killed because they feared for their lives, but I wonder why our police are being trained to kill instead of disarm/disable? I believe that most police officers are good people, but that doesn't mean anything if they are poorly trained.
The officer who killed Philando Castile had no reason to pump 4 bullets into his body. Mr. Castile was stopped for a broken tail light. This was not a swat operation. There is no excuse for the fact that the officer stood there, holding a gun to a dying man, refusing to administer aid. The man was still wearing his seatbelt, for crying out loud. The only possible justification this officer will provide is fear. And if you're that scared of the populace you're policing, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work.
I believe that police officers are often completely disconnected from the communities they are sworn to protect. It is easy to dehumanize a population that you are not invested in emotionally. It is easy to fear people when you believe they are different than you are. As a child, I remember receiving kind smiles and waves from police officers. My young son will often smile and wave at police officers as they walk by and will receive nothing in return. Not a nod, not a smile, not an acknowledgment. It seems like there is just a complete disconnect between most officers and the communities they work in.
We need to demand that better training for our law enforcement. We need to demand accountability from them.
Having said that, I am sick and saddened over Dallas. Murder is never the answer to murder.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 8, 2016 16:30:53 GMT
It seems that, in most cities, police are undertrained and overmilitarized. Officers generally use the excuse that they killed because they feared for their lives, but I wonder why our police are being trained to kill instead of disarm/disable? I believe that most police officers are good people, but that doesn't mean anything if they are poorly trained. The officer who killed Philando Castile had no reason to pump 4 bullets into his body. Mr. Castile was stopped for a broken tail light. This was not a swat operation. There is no excuse for the fact that the officer stood there, holding a gun to a dying man, refusing to administer aid. The man was still wearing his seatbelt, for crying out loud. The only possible justification this officer will provide is fear. And if you're that scared of the populace you're policing, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. I believe that police officers are often completely disconnected from the communities they are sworn to protect. It is easy to dehumanize a population that you are not invested in emotionally. It is easy to fear people when you believe they are different than you are. As a child, I remember receiving kind smiles and waves from police officers. My young son will often smile and wave at police officers as they walk by and will receive nothing in return. Not a nod, not a smile, not an acknowledgment. It seems like there is just a complete disconnect between most officers and the communities they work in. We need to demand that better training for our law enforcement. We need to demand accountability from them. Having said that, I am sick and saddened over Dallas. Murder is never the answer to murder. If you are using a firearm, you are using it with the understanding that its use may end in death. When you take a firearms class, you are taught that. Shooting your weapon at a person does not mean disarming them or disabling them. You operate under the assumption that you will kill them. Police are no different. It's not like in the movies where sharpshooters can shoot a gun out of someone's hand. Better to train them to approach situations calmly, to de-escalate instead of escalate, to use tools like "verbal judo" to manage situations whenever possible. Police should be working to build relationships within communities so that they are perceived as there to protect. None of this will be easy, but it is necessary. A traffic stop for a broken taillight with a family in a car should not end in a fatality. SaveSave |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Jul 8, 2016 16:32:00 GMT
i don't KNOW that he did - but from the facts that are out - he seems like he did maybe he didn't - i don't know i am trying to figure out what he could have done to make that cop shoot him - But the "facts" are the woman's narrative. That narrative could be absolutely 100% factual in every way. But what if there's more to the story? We don't know the whole story (unless there's a video out there prior to the shooting) and we only know one side. We know what she's telling us. But we don't know that it's true or complete. That's why I asked if there was any other video. I don't think there are any "facts" that will convince you that Philando Castile was murdered by the police officer. I am not sure how threatening a man who was inside of a vehicle, strapped into a seatbelt and who clearly didn't have a weapon in hand could have possibly been. Frankly, you shouldn't be a police officer if you are so terrified that you pump a bunch of bullets into someone because you felt scared. |
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Post by Sam on Jul 8, 2016 16:35:14 GMT
i don't KNOW that he did - but from the facts that are out - he seems like he did maybe he didn't - i don't know i am trying to figure out what he could have done to make that cop shoot him - But the "facts" are the woman's narrative. That narrative could be absolutely 100% factual in every way. But what if there's more to the story? We don't know the whole story (unless there's a video out there prior to the shooting) and we only know one side. We know what she's telling us. But we don't know that it's true or complete. That's why I asked if there was any other video. I read an article in the Daily Mail over here which mentioned that St Anthony officers don't wear body cameras. Whether that is right or not, I couldn't say, as I haven't read whether or not they do in other reports. |
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TheOtherMeg
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Jul 8, 2016 16:37:46 GMT
^^This is where I'm coming from, as well. I do understand now, though, that I really should voice my concern and sympathy more often. As much as I don't want my comments to ever, ever sound patronizing, insincere, or 'well, I obviously understand because I have a black friend', I absolutely should be more visibly supportive to those who are hurting. I don't want my silence to be misconstrued as meaning I don't care. I'm so sorry you're hurting, Olan . Love, Meg. |
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I am so tired. Until people see, the world will not change.
