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Post by jennyap on Jul 8, 2016 21:05:39 GMT
You guys can't even pretend to give a fuck about what's going on. Just to be clear, this white woman gives a really big fuck!!! Just to be clear I've never said EVERY SINGLE PEA is heartless and could care less about black people. I think a huge number of peas have thoughts about black people and minorities in general that contribute to these instances where black men are shoot dead simply because an officer is afraid. I am not leaving the thread but I don't want this issue to become "Olan's feelings" because it's way way bigger than that. Maybe not but your first comment quoted above could be interpreted that way, and does a pretty good job of diminishing the posts to that point from Peas who were supportive and caring and angry. I have no doubt that some peas have the type of thoughts you describe. I'm not so sure that there is enough evidence to suggest that it is a huge number. You are right that this is bigger than your feelings, but your feelings absolutely matter too. The only thing I have read about these incidents is this thread so I had no idea that there were children in the car with Castile until you posted that no one had posted about it. I doubt I'm alone in that. It is appalling. Is it any more appalling than the rest of it? I don't know, I'm not sure I can put it on some kind of scale, that' just seems like giving more value to one thing than another which is the very thing that needs to stop. I cannot imagine what they are going through. I'm sorry, for all of it. |
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Post by flanz on Jul 8, 2016 21:08:59 GMT
It seems that, in most cities, police are undertrained and overmilitarized. Officers generally use the excuse that they killed because they feared for their lives, but I wonder why our police are being trained to kill instead of disarm/disable? I believe that most police officers are good people, but that doesn't mean anything if they are poorly trained. The officer who killed Philando Castile had no reason to pump 4 bullets into his body. Mr. Castile was stopped for a broken tail light. This was not a swat operation. There is no excuse for the fact that the officer stood there, holding a gun to a dying man, refusing to administer aid. The man was still wearing his seatbelt, for crying out loud. The only possible justification this officer will provide is fear. And if you're that scared of the populace you're policing, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. I believe that police officers are often completely disconnected from the communities they are sworn to protect. It is easy to dehumanize a population that you are not invested in emotionally. It is easy to fear people when you believe they are different than you are. As a child, I remember receiving kind smiles and waves from police officers. My young son will often smile and wave at police officers as they walk by and will receive nothing in return. Not a nod, not a smile, not an acknowledgment. It seems like there is just a complete disconnect between most officers and the communities they work in. We need to demand that better training for our law enforcement. We need to demand accountability from them. Having said that, I am sick and saddened over Dallas. Murder is never the answer to murder. I agree 100%. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jul 8, 2016 21:09:07 GMT
Well, I think you are wrong, I don't think people are deflecting and most have stated how awful the situation is. I think it's important to do more than state how awful you feel and I do see a lot of people shifting focus (black people commit a lot crimes, they kill each other why not focus on that first, let's allow an investigation. It's always the same here. Like I said over the years I've rooted for you women. Fertility issues, special needs kids, illness, death in the family, photo contest whatever. Generally rooted for good things to happen for you. I kinda knew how many of you felt. It still hurts. I think overall black people are a really resilient group of people and I hope this is just another "blip" in our journey here in America. Kind of off topic: I can't post photos but I was just in Charleston celebrating an anniversary and saw these Gullah Angels and the little tag read "the Gullah woman who carried the load and did what was requested of her with dignity and grace".....I think a lot to white people are finding it hard to accept the truth. It's either glossed over or completely ignored. Requested? I wonder how humanity will explain this moment in time. How will they spin it? Will black people take this on the chin and forgive like all the other instances of abuse? I woke up at 4:30ish with the idea of meditating and saw the Castile story and literally broke down in tears. I live in a mostly Latin community but the black people I saw today almost looked shell shocked. I've never had a day like this before. I don't think that just people of color are the only ones shell shocked--I've been to quite a few places today, been out and about, out to lunch for work than this is ALL that they are talking about. I don't think that this is just going to slip away or be a blip. If these police officers were not just in deadly force, I hope they are prosecuted, found guilty, and head off for a long time in jail. |
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Post by flanz on Jul 8, 2016 21:11:37 GMT
It seems that, in most cities, police are undertrained and overmilitarized. Officers generally use the excuse that they killed because they feared for their lives, but I wonder why our police are being trained to kill instead of disarm/disable? I believe that most police officers are good people, but that doesn't mean anything if they are poorly trained. The officer who killed Philando Castile had no reason to pump 4 bullets into his body. Mr. Castile was stopped for a broken tail light. This was not a swat operation. There is no excuse for the fact that the officer stood there, holding a gun to a dying man, refusing to administer aid. The man was still wearing his seatbelt, for crying out loud. The only possible justification this officer will provide is fear. And if you're that scared of the populace you're policing, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. I believe that police officers are often completely disconnected from the communities they are sworn to protect. It is easy to dehumanize a population that you are not invested in emotionally. It is easy to fear people when you believe they are different than you are. As a child, I remember receiving kind smiles and waves from police officers. My young son will often smile and wave at police officers as they walk by and will receive nothing in return. Not a nod, not a smile, not an acknowledgment. It seems like there is just a complete disconnect between most officers and the communities they work in. We need to demand that better training for our law enforcement. We need to demand accountability from them. Having said that, I am sick and saddened over Dallas. Murder is never the answer to murder. If you are using a firearm, you are using it with the understanding that its use may end in death. When you take a firearms class, you are taught that. Shooting your weapon at a person does not mean disarming them or disabling them. You operate under the assumption that you will kill them. Police are no different. It's not like in the movies where sharpshooters can shoot a gun out of someone's hand. Better to train them to approach situations calmly, to de-escalate instead of escalate, to use tools like "verbal judo" to manage situations whenever possible. Police should be working to build relationships within communities so that they are perceived as there to protect. None of this will be easy, but it is necessary. A traffic stop for a broken taillight with a family in a car should not end in a fatality. SaveSaveBut WHY be taught to shoot to kill? Why isn't disabling a person by shooting them in the leg or arm, stopping them in their tracks, enough?  |
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Post by flanz on Jul 8, 2016 21:14:08 GMT
A cop was just shot in stl... Suspect on the run.  |
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ginacivey
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 8, 2016 21:18:58 GMT
A cop was just shot in stl... Suspect on the run. they actually did catch him he was pulled over in Ballwin and shot the cop in the neck Olan i am not sure if anything we/i say could convince you that it bothers me/us as well we don't have the same perspective because we don't have the same history it feels like you are expecting me/us to fall short gina |
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Post by flanz on Jul 8, 2016 21:19:02 GMT
A very powerful article IMO about race and policing from the perspective of a black ex-cop: linkExcellent and chilling piece. Thanks for sharing! |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 21:36:12 GMT
they actually did catch him he was pulled over in Ballwin and shot the cop in the neck Olan  i am not sure if anything we/i say could convince you that it bothers me/us as well we don't have the same perspective because we don't have the same history it feels like you are expecting me/us to fall short gina Gina the intent of your first response was felt. I did expect that from you. |
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 8, 2016 21:47:12 GMT
If you are using a firearm, you are using it with the understanding that its use may end in death. When you take a firearms class, you are taught that. Shooting your weapon at a person does not mean disarming them or disabling them. You operate under the assumption that you will kill them. Police are no different. It's not like in the movies where sharpshooters can shoot a gun out of someone's hand. veBut WHY be taught to shoot to kill? Why isn't disabling a person by shooting them in the leg or arm, stopping them in their tracks, enough? Because that is not how guns work. Have you ever shot a gun? Firing a gun is inexact. Even the best shots are never 100% accurate. Not even close. It is NOT like the movies. Especially in a situation of extreme confusion and duress, no one should or could be expected to use a gun with enough accuracy to disarm someone. This is why it's so important that police be trained that if they are taking out and firing their weapon that they intend to kill and likely will, and to use EVERY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE to de-escalate a situation first. GUNS ARE DEADLY. They don't disarm. They don't adorably shoot the weapon out of someone's hand. That shit is for movies and cartoons. SaveSave |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 8, 2016 21:58:47 GMT
they actually did catch him he was pulled over in Ballwin and shot the cop in the neck Olan i am not sure if anything we/i say could convince you that it bothers me/us as well we don't have the same perspective because we don't have the same history it feels like you are expecting me/us to fall short gina Gina the intent of your first response was felt. I did expect that from you. so it's fair to say that we rub each other the wrong way because i never expect anything nice - my way- from you the fact is - none of that has anything to do with how you - or i might feel about the events that have transpired or that i might have some empathy gina |
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luckyexwife
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Post by luckyexwife on Jul 8, 2016 22:35:46 GMT
It wasn't so much dissecting of people's comments Olan but a pretty broad brush statement that we lack concern, empathy and are willing to make "you" monsters. Your words on this thread: I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly reject the implication in this statement. I haven't done this - and while I acknowledge the fact that I can't fully appreciate the pain going on in your community - your lashing out at the women on this board as unfeeling and willing to look at African Americans as monsters is just not fair. I'm not saying there aren't some bad apples here, but the vast majority are caring, decent women who would cry and grieve for you if the unspeakable happened. They just didn't share it this time because of the reasons LeftturnOnly and the other pea shared? I stand by what I said and feel like it doesn't need a defense because you can read what everyone wrote just like I did. Listen I totally get I can't force people to see me as a human being. I've watched a lot of people who look like me that came before me fail at it. If you think the commentary, the spirit of the peas and the intent was to show Olan or even the black community support....I say this with all the respect I can conjure up...huge fail. I mean look at how she worded what came to her after deep reflection. Not one pea said something like "Let's wait for the facts but man I feel so bad for that little girl" Not one pea. I don't care why. I just want you to know I see it. I want you to know it hurt me to think about her and think about how many scared white kids my father comforted. I feel like you guys don't get it. Well, I guess I was right about what you think, but as left turn said I am not of a mind to argue with you when you're hurting. To me, this isn't really a argument, just a discussion, but when you're upset it's easy to read intent that isn't there. Peace. It is easy to read into something when you are upset and hurting. I am taking everything I read here exactly at face value. When someone says I am sorry you are hurting BUT One thing I have learned firsthand is how easy it is for some people of color to misinterpret very simple actions and/or words of people with whiter skin. They have been oversensitive and overreacted, separating themselves out from the larger community as if somehow, they were not being treated exactly the same way that everyone else was being treated. My plan is to only focus on what happens after the but Olan - hello it's been awhile too bad it's this awful news story that's brought you back around i think i'm going to hold off judgment until more facts come out and even then, i'm gonna try to not judge because i don't put my life on the line every day and i don't struggle to survive in a less- than - hospitable environment gina I am very sorry Olan. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 8, 2016 22:49:31 GMT
When someone is scared and hurting responding the way you did reaffirms those feelings. Can you see that? I feel like I can share that with you since you already created this narrative where I smacked down every kind word offered to me. That isn't true. <I say this in the gentlest way I am able on this message board...> Olan, I understand that you are scared and hurting. I know what it's like to feel alone and afraid. I know all too well, in fact. It completely affects how you perceive the world around you and how you interpret what others say or do. Just in the bit you quoted from me, you didn't use the quote feature so that the specific word I italicized did not show the italicization and therefore the entire meaning shifted. That's a bit of what's happening here on this thread. Part of what's being said is missed. It is my hope that at some future moment you may be able to accept these words as they are intended: The world may be a little bit brighter than you can possibly see at the moment. People who you think can't possibly care do. There are people just reading this thread whose hearts are hurting and don't have words to say how they feel. Just because they don't reply doesn't mean they are callous. It's really hard to see that when you are in pain and it doesn't feel like others care at all. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jul 8, 2016 23:01:29 GMT
When someone is scared and hurting responding the way you did reaffirms those feelings. Can you see that? I feel like I can share that with you since you already created this narrative where I smacked down every kind word offered to me. That isn't true. <I say this in the gentlest way I am able on this message board...> Olan, I understand that you are scared and hurting. I know what it's like to feel alone and afraid. I know all too well, in fact. It completely affects how you perceive the world around you and how you interpret what others say or do. Just in the bit you quoted from me, you didn't use the quote feature so that the specific word I italicized did not show the italicization and therefore the entire meaning shifted. That's a bit of what's happening here on this thread. Part of what's being said is missed. It is my hope that at some future moment you may be able to accept these words as they are intended: The world may be a little bit brighter than you can possibly see at the moment. People who you think can't possibly care do. There are people just reading this thread whose hearts are hurting and don't have words to say how they feel. Just because they don't reply doesn't mean they are callous. It's really hard to see that when you are in pain and it doesn't feel like others care at all. I heard what you said. You kinda wanted to take it back so that says everything. Me bold. You italicizing. You said what you said and the narrative you want people to believe is I've shot down every genuine "I am sorry" or nothing you say will "matter". Ownership. I do think the overall spirit of the peas did shine through. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 8, 2016 23:37:22 GMT
<I say this in the gentlest way I am able on this message board...> Olan, I understand that you are scared and hurting. I know what it's like to feel alone and afraid. I know all too well, in fact. It completely affects how you perceive the world around you and how you interpret what others say or do. Just in the bit you quoted from me, you didn't use the quote feature so that the specific word I italicized did not show the italicization and therefore the entire meaning shifted. That's a bit of what's happening here on this thread. Part of what's being said is missed. It is my hope that at some future moment you may be able to accept these words as they are intended: The world may be a little bit brighter than you can possibly see at the moment. People who you think can't possibly care do. There are people just reading this thread whose hearts are hurting and don't have words to say how they feel. Just because they don't reply doesn't mean they are callous. It's really hard to see that when you are in pain and it doesn't feel like others care at all. I heard what you said. You kinda wanted to take it back so that says everything. Me bold. You italicizing. You said what you said and the narrative you want people to believe is I've shot down every genuine "I am sorry" or nothing you say will "matter". Ownership. I do think the overall spirit of the peas did shine through. No, Olan. I don't want to take anything back. SOME people do filter everything through a filter looking for intended racial insults. There are no words that will convince them otherwise when they are wrong and completely misinterpret. The example I gave was a simple one. I called a classmate by another classmate's name. Once. Suddenly, I was just some white person who couldn't tell any black people apart, and yes, that does sound like you on this thread. I see that I did say BUT and I should have edited my post better. There should have been no qualifier and there was. It was an error on my part. I apologize that error has added to your pain. If you want to continue referring back to the horrible person that you think that I am, go right on. You'll be doing it without me answering further. |
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~Lauren~
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 8, 2016 23:42:28 GMT
Someone is certainly looking to be offended
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Jul 8, 2016 23:44:52 GMT
Someone is certainly looking to be offended The same could be said about you on many occasions. |
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Post by jenis40 on Jul 8, 2016 23:49:52 GMT
I think that we as white women or men should quit telling black women or men how they should feel. I really don't think it makes any of us look good. All of this is horrifying but why are we (general white we) expecting black people to once again just suck it up? That if only they would behave differently then cops wouldn't treat them this way? And even better they have to do it first after years and years of mistreatment?
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~Lauren~
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 8, 2016 23:55:11 GMT
Someone is certainly looking to be offended The same could be said about you on many occasions. I think not, but nice "deflection"😜 Besides, being offended is the bailiwick of liberals, and I ain't one People are offering empathy to Olan and it seems no matter what they say, it's just not good enough |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 9, 2016 0:09:44 GMT
it kinda feels like that's exactly why you came here with the post
you hadn't been here since may
but you came here with this -
was it your intent to make us all feel like shit for things we don't control or condone?
gina
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jayfab
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Post by jayfab on Jul 9, 2016 0:10:50 GMT
I think that we as white women or men should quit telling black women or men how they should feel. I really don't think it makes any of us look good. All of this is horrifying but why are we (general white we) expecting black people to once again just suck it up? That if only they would behave differently then cops wouldn't treat them this way? And even better they have to do it first after years and years of mistreatment? Agreed. I think a lot of us need better listening skills. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Jul 9, 2016 0:47:16 GMT
The same could be said about you on many occasions. I think not, but nice "deflection"😜 Besides, being offended is the bailiwick of liberals, and I ain't one People are offering empathy to Olan and it seems no matter what they say, it's just not good enough Deflecting? I made a statement based on your history here. You are often up in arms about things you believe those evil liberals are doing. I am so tired of this us vs. them mentality when it comes to politics in America. Liberals blame everything on conservatives and vice versa. I don't claim to know everything, but I do think this keeps us from engaging in thoughtful, meaningful, productive debate. Both sides do it. You do it. So don't point fingers and act like you're above the fray. You are as much of a pot-stirrer as anyone. You might play "nicer" now than you did a couple of years ago, but you are still the same antagonistic personality you've always been. |
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 9, 2016 0:58:03 GMT
A very powerful article IMO about race and policing from the perspective of a black ex-cop: linkThanks for this link. It should be required reading for those who just don't get it. I wonder how many participating in this discussion bothered to read it. |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 9, 2016 1:07:32 GMT
A very powerful article IMO about race and policing from the perspective of a black ex-cop: linkThanks for this link. It should be required reading for those who just don't get it. I wonder how many participating in this discussion bothered to read it. why would you assume so few had? |
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~Lauren~
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 9, 2016 1:18:18 GMT
I think not, but nice "deflection"😜 Besides, being offended is the bailiwick of liberals, and I ain't one People are offering empathy to Olan and it seems no matter what they say, it's just not good enough Deflecting? I made a statement based on your history here. You are often up in arms about things you believe those evil liberals are doing. I am so tired of this us vs. them mentality when it comes to politics in America. Liberals blame everything on conservatives and vice versa. I don't claim to know everything, but I do think this keeps us from engaging in thoughtful, meaningful, productive debate. Both sides do it. You do it. So don't point fingers and act like you're above the fray. You are as much of a pot-stirrer as anyone. You might play "nicer" now than you did a couple of years ago, but you are still the same antagonistic personality you've always been. Blah blah blah. What keeps us from engaging in meaningful discussion is people like you dredge up the past because you really have nothing of value to say now or you don't like what I'm saying NOW. Pull you butt into today rather than 10 years ago. I stand by what I said. Right now, TODAY, Olan is looking to be offended even by people who are trying to empathize |
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 9, 2016 1:23:49 GMT
Thanks for this link. It should be required reading for those who just don't get it. I wonder how many participating in this discussion bothered to read it. why would you assume so few had? Because there were only two comments on this article. Other articles get several pages of discussion. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 1:26:01 GMT
A very powerful article IMO about race and policing from the perspective of a black ex-cop: linkThis is an excellent article, jenny. TFS. |
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inkedup
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Post by inkedup on Jul 9, 2016 1:31:47 GMT
Deflecting? I made a statement based on your history here. You are often up in arms about things you believe those evil liberals are doing. I am so tired of this us vs. them mentality when it comes to politics in America. Liberals blame everything on conservatives and vice versa. I don't claim to know everything, but I do think this keeps us from engaging in thoughtful, meaningful, productive debate. Both sides do it. You do it. So don't point fingers and act like you're above the fray. You are as much of a pot-stirrer as anyone. You might play "nicer" now than you did a couple of years ago, but you are still the same antagonistic personality you've always been. Blah blah blah. What keeps us from engaging in meaningful discussion is people like you dredge up the past because you really have nothing of value to say now or you don't like what I'm saying NOW. Pull you butt into today rather than 10 years ago. I stand by what I said. Right now, TODAY, Olan is looking to be offended even by people who are trying to empathize "Blah blah blah." You are obviously not interested in meaningful dialogue. You come here merely to point fingers and assert your self-perceived superiority. One needn't dig too far into the past to find inflammatory posts from you. You are usually beating your chest over something those evil liberals have done. A quick search of your recent posts (as recent as a few days ago, in fact) makes this clear. |
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ginacivey
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Post by ginacivey on Jul 9, 2016 1:37:22 GMT
i read the article
it said what i expected to hear
police organizations sound similar to any organization - the median population is susceptible to behaviors that are accepted by the majority
gina
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~Lauren~
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 9, 2016 1:43:54 GMT
Inked up, have a good night. This thread doesn't deserve to spiral into this tit for tat. I won't be responding to you anymore
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by inkedup on Jul 9, 2016 1:46:16 GMT
i read the article it said what i expected to hear police organizations sound similar to any organization - the median population is susceptible to behaviors that are accepted by the majority gina Yes, except that police organizations differ from other organizations in two very significant ways; their actions have the power to incarcerate and to kill (often) with impunity. |
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My original pea date was November 1999 and my number was 1803
