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Post by cindyupnorth on Oct 11, 2016 0:50:29 GMT
I know that is true for my Trump-voting relatives - that's why they're voting for him. My uncle had the gall to post on my FB page the other day that he was sorry I couldn't see what several more years of no God and no family values in the White House would do to our country. This was the day after the tape was released. After I picked my chin up off the floor, I simply commented that my family values didn't include racism, xenophobia or misogyny. I didn't even go into how exactly he had pegged Trump as the "family values" candidate because there's no arguing with someone who thinks they have God on their side. And it's dangerous, really, this automatic conflation that some people make between Republican and the more "Godly" or "moral" choice. It lets the Republicans do anything they want, put up any candidate they want, and a large segment of the population will vote for them because the Republican candidate is automatically the more "moral" one - whether reason shows that to be true or not. Trump may say he's pro-life, but is he really for God and family values? Doesn't matter. He's got an R by his name so he must have better morals than the one with the D by her name. The fact that over 43% of the population is still willing to vote for this man, and that many defend him as a moral and upstanding leader, tells you that there is a large disconnect between these people and reality. Exactly Merge!! OMG??! are we related???
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 0:54:53 GMT
And it's dangerous, really, this automatic conflation that some people make between Republican and the more "Godly" or "moral" choice. It lets the Republicans do anything they want, put up any candidate they want, and a large segment of the population will vote for them because the Republican candidate is automatically the more "moral" one - whether reason shows that to be true or not. Trump may say he's pro-life, but is he really for God and family values? Doesn't matter. He's got an R by his name so he must have better morals than the one with the D by her name. The fact that over 43% of the population is still willing to vote for this man, and that many defend him as a moral and upstanding leader, tells you that there is a large disconnect between these people and reality. Sad but true.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Oct 11, 2016 0:54:59 GMT
I can't stand Trump or Hillary. I think she is a big hypocrite for criticizing Trump on this issue though considering who she's married to. I actually have never heard her bring it up? She is ASKED about it.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 1:00:45 GMT
As a mother of two kids with disabilities, one severe, the moment Trump did the following, I vowed to do everything I could to ensure he NOT be elected. Any person who can walk up to a podium with a microphone and an audience and mock someone who is disabled is, in my mind, the lowest of the low. And I truly don't understand how anyone can vote for someone who does that. If someone has so little respect for the disabled, it is no surprise that he mocks and is condescending to other groups of people who struggle for equal treatment in our society. All the subsequent offensive statements against latinos, African Americans, Muslims, women, etc., just further cement, for me, his complete and total lack of character. Look in the dictionary and you'll find Donald Trump's picture under the definition of "lack of moral compass." Thank you so much for this. This is a very personal issue for me; it's hard to even post about it because just thinking about what he did makes me want to start crying. Until he did that, I thought Trump was a run-of-the-mill con man. He's not, he's a monster. That kind of cruelty and dehumanization has no place in civilized society, let alone the Oval Office. If Hillary ever did the same, I'd never vote for her. Ever. Fuck the platform. Yes, a thousand times this. Anyone who mocks this disabled, especially at his age, is irredeemable. I can't understand how people who are truly followers of Christ would vote this person to be the leader of our nation. Jesus would weep at how Trump treats the less powerful in our society. How he treats people with disabilities. What he says about our war heroes who were captured and tortured. How he treats people of color and other religions. How he treats and what he says about women. Christ stated that the meek/humble were blessed and would inherit the earth - Trump isn't humble in the slightest AND proud of it. He is the antithesis of how Christ would advocate a follower live his or her life. And if political platform is more important than following religious dictates for being a person of character, I don't want to hear one more word about how Christians are persecuted in our nation because their religion is separated from government and public schools, given that Christians voting for Trump are apparently doing the same. If you don't think Hillary follows the tenets of Christianity either, then don't vote for her either. Vote for someone you respect. But don't condemn Hillary's sins, all the while forgiving Trump's, simply because it makes it easier for you to cast your vote. I'm guessing that isn't what Jesus would do either. While walking my dog today, I decided that I actually will feel sorry for people who are only voting for him as a vote for the Republican Platform if he were to actually get elected. The rest of us won't be surprised or feel let down, because we will know who has been foist upon us as President. Those voted for the platform will feel betrayed and disappointed when he continues to do whatever is best for him and never bother with the Republican mandate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 1:13:49 GMT
From my POV, I don't think voting for Trump means I forgive his sins. It means that the reality is that either Trump or Hillary is going to be President and out of those two I am making a choice of whose policies I can live with.
*hi elaine!* :waves:
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Post by Merge on Oct 11, 2016 1:14:33 GMT
I know that is true for my Trump-voting relatives - that's why they're voting for him. My uncle had the gall to post on my FB page the other day that he was sorry I couldn't see what several more years of no God and no family values in the White House would do to our country. This was the day after the tape was released. After I picked my chin up off the floor, I simply commented that my family values didn't include racism, xenophobia or misogyny. I didn't even go into how exactly he had pegged Trump as the "family values" candidate because there's no arguing with someone who thinks they have God on their side. And it's dangerous, really, this automatic conflation that some people make between Republican and the more "Godly" or "moral" choice. It lets the Republicans do anything they want, put up any candidate they want, and a large segment of the population will vote for them because the Republican candidate is automatically the more "moral" one - whether reason shows that to be true or not. Trump may say he's pro-life, but is he really for God and family values? Doesn't matter. He's got an R by his name so he must have better morals than the one with the D by her name. The fact that over 43% of the population is still willing to vote for this man, and that many defend him as a moral and upstanding leader, tells you that there is a large disconnect between these people and reality. Exactly Merge!! OMG??! are we related??? Aren't you in Minnesota? We might know some of the same people.
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 1:30:16 GMT
From my POV, I don't think voting for Trump means I forgive his sins. It means that the reality is that either Trump or Hillary is going to be President and out of those two I am making a choice of whose policies I can live with. *hi elaine!* :waves: Hi, Jody! I do love you, even though you are voting for Trump. I do hope you know that. I just think that he is truly evil in his treatment of people and will do what I can to keep him from becoming President.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Oct 11, 2016 1:34:07 GMT
Exactly Merge!! OMG??! are we related??? Aren't you in Minnesota? We might know some of the same people. Yes!! LOL. wouldn't THAT be funny!!
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Post by anxiousmom on Oct 11, 2016 2:05:23 GMT
Some of us have issues with Mr. Trump's behavior and comments from the moment he started his run for the presidency. I have felt all along that his comments about everyone he considers 'other' have made me incredibly uncomfortable and I have not felt that he has the temperament (to borrow his phrase) to enter into any kind of relationship with foreign leaders. I was horrified by his remarks about Sen. McCain and his subsequent remarks about the military do not lead me to believe that he will use our military wisely. His view that women who have had abortions should be 'punished' in some form made me ill. I could go on-mocking a man with disabilities, saying disparaging things about a family (who happens to be Muslims) who lost their son fighting for the US, grabbing a woman's pussy as if he owns it because he is a 'star'...I may not be the best Christian by some people's definition, but I have absolute faith that my moral compass is pointing in the right direction. Hopefully by now it's clear I'm not a Trump supporter and there are beyond plenty of things that he says and does that there is no defense for. But people don't understand why anyone would defend him and it's statements like this (and there are beyond plenty of similar statements) it's statements like this that get them to speak up. Trump did not say women should be punished for having an abortion. He was answering the question posed to him that IF abortions were illegal. Most people would agree if you break a law there is some form of consequence for doing so. That is the question he was answering. I have read the transcripts for this particular interview and saw the interview. He hemmed and hawed his way through the entire question, the bottom line was a) he wanted to ban abortion with limited exceptions and b) he was willing to punish someone for choosing that option. Even during the days prior to Roe V. Wade, punishing women for receiving abortions was not done, the person who performed the abortion was. I get what you are trying to say-that he was answering based on the premise that abortion procedures were illegal but that is not the impression that he gave.
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Post by hollymolly on Oct 11, 2016 2:06:33 GMT
It really hurts me in my soul that this reprehensible man is using the strong convictions of some of my fellow Christians to manipulate them into giving him what he wants. He knows the key things he has to say, Pro-life/Anti-gay marriage/Pro-guns, that allow him to get away with absolutely anything else. Literally anything else, that's what I learned from this weekend.
There is no evidence at all that he will uphold the Republican platform, and in fact a great deal of evidence that he won't. Believe what people do, not what they say. He has refused to be advised by anyone, and these are people trying to help him win. How much less will he take their advice when he's already won? Look at how hard the Republican establishment has tried and failed to control him so far. Has he worked with any of them? Why would anyone think he will work with them if he's president? Last night he publicly dissed his running mate, said he disagreed with him on a very important issue, and said they haven't talked about it. He's not talking to his running mate about issues now, he's not going to talk to his advisers as president. All of these Republicans who pulled their support? He will actively work against them and their policies because he's petty and vindictive and carries grudges forever. He's shown that over and over during this campaign alone.
Please don't think you only have two candidates. You have several. Evan McMullin, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, any other single person you want to write in. A vote for Trump is no more a vote for the Republican platform than a vote for Hillary would be.
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Post by Merge on Oct 11, 2016 2:50:46 GMT
What I do not understand is why the Republicans are still choosing presidential candidates on the litmus test of abortion rights and gay marriage when those are now settled law (in once case, for over 40 years). Does anyone really think the SC is going to go back and overturn those decisions just because there's a Republican in the White House? Even when Scalia was alive they showed no signs of doing so.
These things are the law of the land. The rights to abortion and to same-sex marriage have been deemed constitutional. Why, then, are GOP voters still insisting on candidates who do not support the established law of the land? How is that helpful? How does that move forward the business of our nation?
I am just so frustrated with the party of "we didn't get what we wanted/didn't get to impose our religious views on the population any longer, so we're going to keep fighting that battle over and over in the hopes that the outcome might change." Definition of insanity, anyone? Good gravy, get over it and move on. We have other fish to fry.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 2:51:14 GMT
elaine - I know that... You know how it is with political peas. We argue...but deep down we're friends. I will never forget...one of the political peas that everyone on both sides got irritated at all the time all of sudden went missing for a few weeks. As aggravating as she was, some of the toughest peas on the other side of the aisle were checking in frequently to see if she was ok. And anyway, I like to hang out with you...so you're stuck with me, lol. And yes, I love ellipses.
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Post by lesserknownpea on Oct 11, 2016 2:53:21 GMT
WTH is "one of Trumps TV surrogates"? what or who is that? LOL. sorry. not up to speed on that expression She means one of the talking heads that are on tv making excuses for and giving support to trump. I would call them apologists
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 11, 2016 2:56:53 GMT
Some of us have issues with Mr. Trump's behavior and comments from the moment he started his run for the presidency. I have felt all along that his comments about everyone he considers 'other' have made me incredibly uncomfortable and I have not felt that he has the temperament (to borrow his phrase) to enter into any kind of relationship with foreign leaders. I was horrified by his remarks about Sen. McCain and his subsequent remarks about the military do not lead me to believe that he will use our military wisely. His view that women who have had abortions should be 'punished' in some form made me ill. I could go on-mocking a man with disabilities, saying disparaging things about a family (who happens to be Muslims) who lost their son fighting for the US, grabbing a woman's pussy as if he owns it because he is a 'star'...I may not be the best Christian by some people's definition, but I have absolute faith that my moral compass is pointing in the right direction. Hopefully by now it's clear I'm not a Trump supporter and there are beyond plenty of things that he says and does that there is no defense for. But people don't understand why anyone would defend him and it's statements like this (and there are beyond plenty of similar statements) it's statements like this that get them to speak up. Trump did not say women should be punished for having an abortion. He was answering the question posed to him that IF abortions were illegal. Most people would agree if you break a law there is some form of consequence for doing so. That is the question he was answering. And doing away with Planned Parenthood (to try make abortions illegal) and Pence has already enacted laws in his state regarding the same, AND reversing Roe v. Wade IS the platform that THEY are running on, so it is NOT a matter of IF abortions become illegal, it is WHEN they do under his presidency.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 3:01:21 GMT
@merge - when you see abortion the way I do, you can't do that. I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate ever, and especially for one who believes in no restrictions. I know it's hard for you to understand, but it's how I vote. I don't want to get into why though for a few reasons that are personal.
Everyone has their own convictions, and their own reasons for those convictions. I can't imagine voting for Hillary, but I am not going to criticize those who vote for her because of their convictions/feelings about Trump, etc.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 11, 2016 3:02:13 GMT
We'll have to agree to disagree particularly on the bold part, not plausible at all. They are not allegations against Trump. He's actually admitted it himself in that tape that was released. There are allegations against Trump that are as you said about Clinton "are not yet proven". So I'll stand by my statement: It makes no logical sense why anyone who would be outraged (rightfully so) about people dismissing/making excuses for Trump's vile and disgusting things he said about forcing himself on women, would then turn around and dismiss/make excuses for Clinton allegedly actually DOING those things. The difference, since you cannot seem to see it, is that Trump HIMSELF says those things, does those things, and brags about doing those things (all his own admission), where in a few instances with Bill, accusers recanted, said it never happened, then years later said it did, one was found by investigators not to be truthful and evidence didn't line up--so for Bill, those things are alleged and he has denied some however for Trump, it's not alleged--HE'S the one bragging about them.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Oct 11, 2016 3:11:11 GMT
What I do not understand is why the Republicans are still choosing presidential candidates on the litmus test of abortion rights and gay marriage when those are now settled law (in once case, for over 40 years). Does anyone really think the SC is going to go back and overturn those decisions just because there's a Republican in the White House? Even when Scalia was alive they showed no signs of doing so. These things are the law of the land. The rights to abortion and to same-sex marriage have been deemed constitutional. Why, then, are GOP voters still insisting on candidates who do not support the established law of the land? How is that helpful? How does that move forward the business of our nation? I am just so frustrated with the party of "we didn't get what we wanted/didn't get to impose our religious views on the population any longer, so we're going to keep fighting that battle over and over in the hopes that the outcome might change." Definition of insanity, anyone? Good gravy, get over it and move on. We have other fish to fry. Who also effectively refuse to do their jobs in appointing a new SC because they want THEIR way and ONLY their way.
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Post by freecharlie on Oct 11, 2016 3:21:38 GMT
actually I am seeing the genius behind this. There are people I know who despise trump and everything about him, but don't want a liberal being able to nominate the seat. Or any seats that open in the next 4 years.
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Post by tara on Oct 11, 2016 3:41:13 GMT
I have never liked Trump, even long before he entered the political arena, but the moment he mocked the reporter with a disability, he crossed a line that I don't think he can ever step back from with me. That was one of the most disgusting and disturbing things I've ever seen. I do believe that that moment showed us his true character - and I did NOT like what I saw. What was even more disgusting and disturbing to me were the people in the crowd that was cheering him on. That was sickening!
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Post by elaine on Oct 11, 2016 3:45:28 GMT
I have never liked Trump, even long before he entered the political arena, but the moment he mocked the reporter with a disability, he crossed a line that I don't think he can ever step back from with me. That was one of the most disgusting and disturbing things I've ever seen. I do believe that that moment showed us his true character - and I did NOT like what I saw. What was even more disgusting and disturbing to me were the people in the crowd that was cheering him on. That was sickening! And I would readily put them in the "basket of deplorables" that so offends some people.
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Post by tara on Oct 11, 2016 5:03:06 GMT
@merge - when you see abortion the way I do, you can't do that. I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate ever, and especially for one who believes in no restrictions. I know it's hard for you to understand, but it's how I vote. I don't want to get into why though for a few reasons that are personal. Everyone has their own convictions, and their own reasons for those convictions. I can't imagine voting for Hillary, but I am not going to criticize those who vote for her because of their convictions/feelings about Trump, etc. You can't really bring abortion into this because Trump has been prochoice until he decided to run as a republican. Even then it wasn't clear what his exact stance was. Really I trust that man as far as I can throw him. How do you know he won't flip on you if he gets in office? And as far as our military, people have already brought out his disrespect. Also you can't bring religion into this because he has shown he is godless. Also what do you tell your kids about bullys? Anyone who's prejudice because of a persons skin color, religion, or the handicapped is the lowest of the low. I couldn't tell my kids that and then turn around and help a bully become their leader. Also I have two daughters. I couldn't look them in the face and then turn around and vote for a man who feels he can go up and sexually assult them. I just couldn't. If I believe d all the bad things you hear about Clinton, I would rather vote independent or not vote at all
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Post by tara on Oct 11, 2016 5:10:34 GMT
From my POV, I don't think voting for Trump means I forgive his sins. It means that the reality is that either Trump or Hillary is going to be President and out of those two I am making a choice of whose policies I can live with. *hi elaine!* :waves: Hi, Jody! I do love you, even though you are voting for Trump. I do hope you know that. I just think that he is truly evil in his treatment of people and will do what I can to keep him from becoming President. I'm 47 years old and this will be my first time voting. I always thought all politicians were the same. It didn't matter who you voted for. The same can be said for my husband and daughter. We feel Trump is evil. We will do anything in our power to keep him out.
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Post by tara on Oct 11, 2016 5:20:03 GMT
I can tell you what I think people are voting for, when they vote for Trump. I see it posted daily on my FB page from my aunt and a bunch of wacko relatives. This is NOT what I believe. This is what conservative, Christian, republicans believe...they don't care what he has done, or what he says, They only care about the pro-life, anti abortion, non-same sex marriage, and gun rights. That is why they will vote for him. Because Hillary is all the opposite of that. Which god only knows if Trump is even still going to believe that if he gets in to office. I know that is true for my Trump-voting relatives - that's why they're voting for him. My uncle had the gall to post on my FB page the other day that he was sorry I couldn't see what several more years of no God and no family values in the White House would do to our country. This was the day after the tape was released. After I picked my chin up off the floor, I simply commented that my family values didn't include racism, xenophobia or misogyny. I didn't even go into how exactly he had pegged Trump as the "family values" candidate because there's no arguing with someone who thinks they have God on their side. And it's dangerous, really, this automatic conflation that some people make between Republican and the more "Godly" or "moral" choice. It lets the Republicans do anything they want, put up any candidate they want, and a large segment of the population will vote for them because the Republican candidate is automatically the more "moral" one - whether reason shows that to be true or not. Trump may say he's pro-life, but is he really for God and family values? Doesn't matter. He's got an R by his name so he must have better morals than the one with the D by her name. The fact that over 43% of the population is still willing to vote for this man, and that many defend him as a moral and upstanding leader, tells you that there is a large disconnect between these people and reality. My sil put a meme about the Trumps bringing class back to the whitehouse. My jaw dropped.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 8:27:54 GMT
About abortion: That is where his platform comes in vs. Hillary's platform.
She absolutely favors no restrictions on abortion. He has stated that he is now pro life.
Do I have misgivings about his claim? Sure. I'm not stupid...but if he gets elected he is going to have to stand behind what he says if he wants to be re-elected.
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Post by miominmio on Oct 11, 2016 8:28:22 GMT
At least now I can understand how Hitler got elected......
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Post by Merge on Oct 11, 2016 9:48:49 GMT
About abortion: That is where his platform comes in vs. Hillary's platform. She absolutely favors no restrictions on abortion. He has stated that he is now pro life. Do I have misgivings about his claim? Sure. I'm not stupid...but if he gets elected he is going to have to stand behind what he says if he wants to be re-elected. But ... what is he going to do? Unilaterally overturn Roe v. Wade? With that being long-settled law, any restrictions (or not) are handled at the state level.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 9:56:39 GMT
What about the appointed judges on lower levels? Are you going to tell me that they don't make a difference? Because they do.
I know R v. W isn't going to be overturned. But me voting for someone who is for unrestricted access to abortions? Yeah, not going to happen.
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Post by Merge on Oct 11, 2016 10:07:05 GMT
What about the appointed judges on lower levels? Are you going to tell me that they don't make a difference? Because they do. I know R v. W isn't going to be overturned. But me voting for someone who is for unrestricted access to abortions? Yeah, not going to happen. Well, that isn't exactly true, either. She has said that she is fine with late-term restrictions with exceptions for the life and health of the mother.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 10:20:07 GMT
Glad to hear that, truly. Because Pres. Obama is for unrestricted access, and the above is an improvement on that.
I still can't vote pro-choice. And there are so many other reasons why I couldn't vote for her, but I will admit that's #1.
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Post by Merge on Oct 11, 2016 10:24:22 GMT
@jodster - I'm interested to get your thoughts on this - it's old news but popped up in my FB feed again recently - Colorado initiative reduces teen births by 40 percent, abortions by 35 percent The article also claims the initiative saved the state $80M in medicaid costs. I realize that I'm not going to dissuade you from your beliefs about the immorality of abortion and I wouldn't try. It's worth pointing out, however, that restrictions on LEGAL abortion do not necessarily prevent actual abortions. There are plenty of people who will perform abortion illegally, and of course wealthy women have better access to doctors who can do this safely than poor women do. The truly desperate will try to take matters into their own hands, which I'm sure is a situation we'd all like to prevent. If the goal is to actually prevent abortions (which is think is laudable - despite the picture the right sometimes paints, no one on the left is rubbing their hands together and saying "yay! more abortions"), doesn't it make more sense to provide access to birth control rather than limiting access to abortion? To me, a "pro-life" candidate who is in favor of restricting abortion access but not in favor of making sure all women have access to effective birth control is not looking at this problem logically. YMMV but I am interested in your thoughts.
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