anoncpa
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Nov 27, 2016 23:48:18 GMT
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Post by anoncpa on Nov 28, 2016 0:00:12 GMT
be crossed? I am a bit concerned by my boss telling me a week ago to "suspend all deposits until further notice". Typically, he wants me to stop making deposits by mid-December. I usually will do so around December 18th which doesn't seem completely outrageous considering people take holidays breaks (although I only take a few days off the office closes for about 10 to 14 days). However, his request last week was on the November 20th!!!
The checks I receive will ultimately be deposited in January. He does this from year to year trying to keep his current year tax liability as low or flat as possible. 2016 was a high income year and 2017 is expected to be the lowest income year he's had in over 15 years so. So, it isn't out and out tax evasion but it does seem like tax fraud. It will probably be around $80,000 which is about 10% of gross revenues but about 60% of net income.
I don't really feel comfortable with this situation and other than telling him I can't be a part of it (I am his only accounting staff but I don't do his taxes, he has a different CPA do that) I'm not sure what to do.
How would you feel about this? Lowering taxable income this year but knowing that it will at least be reported next year? It just feels wrong but my DH is trying to tell me it is no big deal.
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Post by tinydogmafia on Nov 28, 2016 0:10:35 GMT
How would you feel about this? Anything that would make me question my ethics or morals would make me feel extremely uncomfortable and make me seriously question my employment at said company. I don't say that lightly, either. I understand how hard good jobs can be. But I would never, ever risk my license, my ethnics or my standards over my boss's wishes to shuffle money. Save
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on Nov 28, 2016 0:20:38 GMT
It's not something I have ever been asked to do.
But cash does not equal income. If the customer has been invoiced, that is the income, not the cash receipt. Unless he is asking you to delay invoicing. I come from a manufacturing background. Am I missing something? Are you a cash based business?
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 28, 2016 0:23:15 GMT
I really don't know what I would do in your shoes. Ultimately, this is your boss's responsibility. It wouldn't sit really well with me, though.
I had an incompetent boss. When it came to following mandated regulations, I did my best to not just comply but to correct mistakes of her's that I caught. She really did try to comply, though. I would have reported her and/or left if she hadn't. (The regulations we had to follow were serious with serious consequences for violating them.)
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Post by jcmom04 on Nov 28, 2016 0:24:00 GMT
As someone who is a small business owner and has to pay taxes, but has never done anything like this (and honestly it wouldn't occur to me)... I googled your description within the IRS to see if it was a legal issue, ethical issue, or both.
Here is how what you described is defined:
Constructive income. Income also means anything you have the right to put your hands on but don't for some reason. The legal doctrine of "constructive receipt" says that as soon as money or property is available to you, or is credited to your account, it becomes income -- whether you grab it or not. For instance, you can't get a check for services in November 2000 and hold it for deposit until 2001 without being taxed on it in 2000, the year received.
So, regardless of when he deposits the income should be taxable for this year.
Kristin
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Nov 28, 2016 0:24:38 GMT
Deferring income is not illegal, as long as it is recorded the following year.
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anoncpa
New Member
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Nov 27, 2016 23:48:18 GMT
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Post by anoncpa on Nov 28, 2016 0:46:58 GMT
It's not something I have ever been asked to do. But cash does not equal income. If the customer has been invoiced, that is the income, not the cash receipt. Unless he is asking you to delay invoicing. I come from a manufacturing background. Am I missing something? Are you a cash based business? He is a "cash basis" reporter (not accrual which is what you are describing).
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anoncpa
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Nov 27, 2016 23:48:18 GMT
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Post by anoncpa on Nov 28, 2016 0:51:33 GMT
Deferring income is not illegal, as long as it is recorded the following year. In this situation, I don't think that is true. He is a consultant and I bill at the end of each month. I know for a fact that two clients have mailed in checks last week for around $22,000 each and they represent consulting work performed in September and October (and even August and July for one client). I don't think the IRS would okay someone saying "I'll pay you next year, don't worry about it". I'm dreading going in tomorrow and seeing the checks that have come in as I think it will be substantial. I am planning on invoicing two weeks later than normal for November fees so at least there wouldn't really be time for most clients to send in a check for those invoices. This is just very outside my comfort zone.
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Post by its me mg on Nov 28, 2016 0:59:58 GMT
What about the fact that some checks are void after 30/60/90 days? I would be worried about the September check...
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Post by chaosisapony on Nov 28, 2016 1:05:27 GMT
Is it not an issue that some checks are only valid for a certain number of days? What about screwing up the book keeping for the clients that sent the checks when they don't see them go through for a couple of months?
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GiantsFan
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Post by GiantsFan on Nov 28, 2016 1:14:20 GMT
Deferring income is not illegal, as long as it is recorded the following year. In this situation, I don't think that is true. He is a consultant and I bill at the end of each month. I know for a fact that two clients have mailed in checks last week for around $22,000 each and they represent consulting work performed in September and October (and even August and July for one client). I don't think the IRS would okay someone saying "I'll pay you next year, don't worry about it". I'm dreading going in tomorrow and seeing the checks that have come in as I think it will be substantial. I am planning on invoicing two weeks later than normal for November fees so at least there wouldn't really be time for most clients to send in a check for those invoices. This is just very outside my comfort zone. It's my understanding that in order to def income to next year, the income has to be paid for now (deposited) but earned in the subsequent year and you have still have record it as Def Inc on the balance sheet. OP - I would not feel comfortable with holding the deposits for the July - October work. That seems too much of a stretch for me. One thing you can do to protect yourself in case this ever comes up in an audit is to ask your employer give you something in writing (via email maybe) stating that he is requiring you to hold all deposits from now until January 1st. Save
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iowgirl
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Post by iowgirl on Nov 28, 2016 1:25:14 GMT
We defer income on grain and livestock. It is above board and not illegal.
We do not get the check until after the first of the year though - so who knows in this situation.
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Post by dillydally on Nov 28, 2016 2:16:51 GMT
Keep a list of when checks were received vs when they were deposited and give that to the tax preparer so that he/she can properly report the money since even if you don't deposit them until next year, they should be considered income: www.irs.gov/publications/p334/ch02.htmlCash Method Most individuals and many sole proprietors with no inventory use the cash method because they find it easier to keep cash method records. However, if an inventory is necessary to account for your income, you must generally use an accrual method of accounting for sales and purchases. For more information, see Inventories , later. Income Under the cash method, include in your gross income all items of income you actually or constructively receive during your tax year. If you receive property or services, you must include their fair market value in income. Example. On December 30, 2014, Mrs. Sycamore sent you a check for interior decorating services you provided to her. You received the check on January 2, 2015. You must include the amount of the check in income for 2015. Constructive receipt. Y ou have constructive receipt of income when an amount is credited to your account or made available to you without restriction. You do not need to have possession of it. If you authorize someone to be your agent and receive income for you, you are treated as having received it when your agent received it. Example. Interest is credited to your bank account in December 2015. You do not withdraw it or enter it into your passbook until 2016. You must include it in your gross income for 2015. Delaying receipt of income. You cannot hold checks or postpone taking possession of similar property from one tax year to another to avoid paying tax on the income. You must report the income in the year the property is received or made available to you without restriction.Example. Frances Jones, a service contractor, was entitled to receive a $10,000 payment on a contract in December 2015. She was told in December that her payment was available. At her request, she was not paid until January 2016. She must include this payment in her 2015 income because it was constructively received in 2015. Checks. Receipt of a valid check by the end of the tax year is constructive receipt of income in that year, even if you cannot cash or deposit the check until the following year. Example.
Dr. Redd received a check for $500 on December 31, 2015, from a patient. She could not deposit the check in her business account until January 2, 2016. She must include this fee in her income for 2015.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Nov 28, 2016 2:28:42 GMT
Plus, he's not trying to avoid paying taxes, he's probably just trying to defer his tax liability to the following year. Again, not illegal.
Tax avoidance all together--definitely illegal.
I'd tread carefully with your employer, so that you are not appearing to accuse him of anything illegal. If you are not his tax accountant/finance person, you might not be privy to all the information. Just because you don't/might not have all the info or fully understand what he's doing, does not make it unethical.
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Post by chirpingcricket on Nov 28, 2016 3:00:44 GMT
Yes, darn it, my boss regularly asks me to notarize things he signed when I wasn't there. How do I know he really signed them? Oh, sure, I recognize his signature. Still!!! I took an oath!
He also wants me to jaywalk. I absolutely refuse. Some lines cannot be crossed.
(OK, I know my issues are not as potentially serious as yours, OP. Still.)
[People jaywalk in Knoxville All.The.Time. Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean I will.]
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Post by scrapmaven on Nov 28, 2016 3:05:24 GMT
Never compromise your ethics and if it could be a crime, don't do it. If he's doing something borderline illegal then it's time to find a new job.
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Post by mlynn on Nov 28, 2016 3:05:49 GMT
That is not deferred income. Deferred income is not received until later. Once he has control over it (ie it is in his mailbox) it is taxable to him at that point in time. He is smarter to accelerate expenses than to avoid declaring taxable income. He will be receiving 1099's from these companies that include the amounts he is holding onto. If his 1099's exceed the amount of gross revenue he claims, that is a big red flag to the IRS.
Working in accounting, I have been aware of situations that are not on the up and up. I never sign tax returns (state or federal, income or payroll) if I have not done the actual transactions myself or if I know of something shady going on. (For instance giving free rent in lieu of wages). The person who signs the returns is the one with their neck on the line. The external CPA is covered because they are removed from the actual transactions and prepare the returns from documents provided by the client. An inhouse accountant would not have that protection. Having knowledge of the shadiness could come back to bite you if you sign returns.
That said, I would do as instructed. However, I sure as heck would not sign any returns. Prepare them, yes. Sign them, no.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Nov 28, 2016 4:30:00 GMT
Is it not an issue that some checks are only valid for a certain number of days? What about screwing up the book keeping for the clients that sent the checks when they don't see them go through for a couple of months? Tell me about that! I had a commercial property landlady once who would hold ALL of my rent checks for six months before taking them to the bank. It drove me nuts, and it created a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare for me having to keep track of months worth of uncashed checks. She would run them all to the bank about a week before the oldest ones would be stale dated.
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 28, 2016 4:45:00 GMT
In this situation, I don't think that is true. He is a consultant and I bill at the end of each month. I know for a fact that two clients have mailed in checks last week for around $22,000 each and they represent consulting work performed in September and October (and even August and July for one client). I don't think the IRS would okay someone saying "I'll pay you next year, don't worry about it". I'm dreading going in tomorrow and seeing the checks that have come in as I think it will be substantial. I am planning on invoicing two weeks later than normal for November fees so at least there wouldn't really be time for most clients to send in a check for those invoices. This is just very outside my comfort zone. It's my understanding that in order to def income to next year, the income has to be paid for now (deposited) but earned in the subsequent year and you have still have record it as Def Inc on the balance sheet. OP - I would not feel comfortable with holding the deposits for the July - October work. That seems too much of a stretch for me. One thing you can do to protect yourself in case this ever comes up in an audit is to ask your employer give you something in writing (via email maybe) stating that he is requiring you to hold all deposits from now until January 1st. Yes, especially to the part that is bolded. If he earned the money in July, IRS is not going to agree that he can wait to be taxed on the income until next year if he's ever audited. He will then owe penalties on the money for the time it was due to have taxes paid on it to the time it is paid. I bet he's underpaid his quarterly taxes as well. Maybe that's part of why he's trying to do this now.
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Post by leftturnonly on Nov 28, 2016 4:48:25 GMT
He also wants me to jaywalk. I absolutely refuse. Some lines cannot be crossed.
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Post by vspindler on Nov 28, 2016 6:04:57 GMT
Holding deposits is not an uncommon tax planning strategy. However, holding for that long is pushing it, IMO. A bookkeeper in that position will not face any issues for going along with it, only the folks signing the return would.
You could be a tax whistleblower if you want, but I don't know how much the IRS would pursue it.
I have gone toe to toe with a partner at work for wanting the firm to do something questionable. Facts didn't matter at that point, but I did have to get another owner involved.
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Post by misadventurous on Nov 28, 2016 8:19:40 GMT
CMA here, held to a similar code of ethics. A couple of people here have already given the correct answer, which is that undeposited checks are considered to have been constructively received and are treated as income in the current year. See IRS pub 538 for the definition. It's not even a gray area; the example of undeposited checks is explicitly given.
This is not "tax planning", it's wrong. Show the IRS documentation to your boss and help him understand what the rule is.
ETA: The IRS code section is § 1.451-2 Constructive receipt of income.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Nov 28, 2016 14:13:00 GMT
Whether you are accounting using the cash method or the accrual method, the income is earned in this fiscal period.
In Canada, corporations report on an accrual basis - no choice. As an auditor, a large deposit right at the beginning of a fiscal period is a huge red flag for me.
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ginacivey
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Jun 25, 2014 19:18:36 GMT
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Post by ginacivey on Nov 28, 2016 14:49:49 GMT
yes my former principal wanted all CPS concerns to go thru his office instead of a direct call
it was the straw that broke this camel's back
i don't have to have his approval to make a phone call
in fact, it's probably illegal of him
i was tired of the constant fight between he and his staff and quit
gina
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Post by not2peased on Nov 28, 2016 15:13:31 GMT
unless I was doing his taxes for him, I would just do as I was told, but I would request it in an email in case someone tried to accuse me of holding onto the payment intentionally.
if he chooses to handle his taxes incorrectly, that's on him, not on me (again, assuming I am not doing his taxes for him)
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basketdiva
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Post by basketdiva on Nov 28, 2016 16:03:22 GMT
You may consider it wrong or crossing the line but you may not have all the facts. You don't know what will happen when he sits down with the CPA for tax filing.
I would remind him that 1099's won't agree with income and is a red flag to the IRS.
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Post by its me mg on Nov 28, 2016 19:38:08 GMT
yes my former principal wanted all CPS concerns to go thru his office instead of a direct call it was the straw that broke this camel's back i don't have to have his approval to make a phone call in fact, it's probably illegal of him i was tired of the constant fight between he and his staff and quit gina Oh. Hell. No! Good for you! There's no way I could know something that was reportable and then hope that the principal took care of it. No way, no how. Nuh-uh.
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Deleted
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May 4, 2024 20:17:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 20:00:38 GMT
What about screwing up the book keeping for the clients that sent the checks when they don't see them go through for a couple of months? It doesn't screw up anyone's books. They are just uncleared. The expense was already recorded in the proper year.
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Post by myboysnme on Nov 28, 2016 21:06:26 GMT
This afternoon something came to mind that I think crossed the line looking back on it. My boss was an Army officer and it was important for her to do things that would look good to her bosses for promotion. So she got the name of a family from social services, and had all of us get together and buy all the gifts. Then instead of dropping them off at social services she made me drive all of us in my van to the family's apartment. We all crammed into this little apartment and then she gets out her camera to get a picture of all of us with the family and the gifts so she can show her boss what she did. I opted to take the photo instead of be in it.
To this day I am mortified thinking about how exploitive it is for that family to have to have us in their home and pose for photos. I think that really crossed the line. Another one of those 'sounds nice charitable giving things that are really more self serving.'
I think in these circumstances someone from social services can help the mom get the gifts so her kids can receive them from Santa, not from us. We are doing something similar on my hospital unit - having the families come to get the gifts. I am not participating.
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