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Post by *leslie* on Aug 16, 2014 1:02:10 GMT
Hi everyone, it's Leslie, I was *Leslie* at Two Peas. This is my first post here.
I guess I have a two part question:
At one point do you separate a disruptive or troublesome student from sitting next to other students in the classroom?
Where do you place this student's desk in your classroom?
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Post by Merge on Aug 16, 2014 1:11:47 GMT
Depends ... Is there an IEP involved?
If not, then a lot depends in your school culture. In my school separating a kid permanently from the class is an extreme measure and would only be done after some other documented behavior plan had failed.
Many teachers have a student desk right by their own desk where disruptive students are told to sit for a shorter period of time. When I've seen students permanently separated from sitting with peers, their desk is usually facing a wall on the side of the room.
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bugsy
Shy Member
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Post by bugsy on Aug 16, 2014 1:31:48 GMT
Yes, I have done this. It's always after all other measures have failed and when classmates' learning is being affected by the disruptive behavior. I've had students who needed to be moved so they were in close proximity to where I spend a lot of time (ie the reading table) and others who just needed to be a few feet away from other children. I haven't placed a desk facing the wall unless it was for a brief period, like time-out or a cooling off period.
I always give the children a second chance to rejoin their peers to see if the behavior improves. If not, I'll move them away again for a longer period of time. They do still participate in group activities though.
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 16, 2014 1:33:00 GMT
Depends ... Is there an IEP involved? If not, then a lot depends in your school culture. In my school separating a kid permanently from the class is an extreme measure and would only be done after some other documented behavior plan had failed. Many teachers have a student desk right by their own desk where disruptive students are told to sit for a shorter period of time. When I've seen students permanently separated from sitting with peers, their desk is usually facing a wall on the side of the room. I'm almost positive there is a IEP involved but I'm not 100% sure. I guess I'm trying to figure out at what point the teacher decides that a student can't share a desk with another student because he disrupts the other students work. Just one example, while the other student goes to the restroom, troublesome student erases all of the work done on other student's worksheet. I'm not talking about having him be an outcast or anything. The desks are rectangular, in rows, and two to a desk, so just keep a space between him and the next student over. Also, if a teacher has a disruptive student wouldn't they place their seating assignment the closest to them, not the farthest? |
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SabrinaP
Pearl Clutcher
Busy Teacher Pea
Posts: 4,408
Location: Dallas Texas
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Post by SabrinaP on Aug 16, 2014 1:37:00 GMT
Yes, I would and have moved a disruptive student. I always do it very temporarily and continue to move them back into the group to try again. Usually what I do is have an empty desk off by itself and have disruptive student sit there just for that class period, but I have had them sit there everyday for a week if needed.
If it's your DS being disrupted, contact the teacher and tell her what's going on and how it's affecting your child and then asked for him to be moved. I never have a problem with this request from a parent, as long as it's reasonable.
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Post by Merge on Aug 16, 2014 1:40:16 GMT
Depends ... Is there an IEP involved? If not, then a lot depends in your school culture. In my school separating a kid permanently from the class is an extreme measure and would only be done after some other documented behavior plan had failed. Many teachers have a student desk right by their own desk where disruptive students are told to sit for a shorter period of time. When I've seen students permanently separated from sitting with peers, their desk is usually facing a wall on the side of the room. I'm almost positive there is a IEP involved but I'm not 100% sure. I guess I'm trying to figure out at what point the teacher decides that a student can't share a desk with another student because he disrupts the other students work. Just one example, while the other student goes to the restroom, troublesome student erases all of the work done on other student's worksheet. I'm not talking about having him be an outcast or anything. The desks are rectangular, in rows, and two to a desk, so just keep a space between him and the next student over. Also, if a teacher has a disruptive student wouldn't they place their seating assignment the closest to them, not the farthest? Hmm. It's unusual here for elementary desks to be placed in rows. They're more usually in groups of four or six facing each other. So you can see how having one student by himself would make him seem a bit outcast. When they have the disruptive student off to the side it's often because he has a hard time with the activity of the classroom, frequently argues with peers, etc. and does better without the distraction of facing the class. I get the impression that you're the mother of the student this child is bothering, and want to know when enough is enough.  . Have you spoken with the teacher? |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 16, 2014 1:53:18 GMT
The desks were kind of like this but picture longer desks because there's two students to a desk and they are right up next to each other. She did eventually put the desk in groups of three leaving one row of desks where my son was seated next to this student.  |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 16, 2014 2:07:12 GMT
Here is the thing, this happened last year so it's over now but it's still bugging me because my son being sat next to this kid caused a chain reaction of events that gave the implication that my son was a bully. Part of me is pissed at myself because I didn't say anything sooner. I volunteered in the classroom every Thursday and didn't see anything when I was there. I don't believe in helicoptering my kids. I believe they need to learn to work out their problems but I think I effed up in this case. The other part of me is pissed at his teacher for not dealing with this kid. It's like she just kept moving him around until it was my son's turn to be annoyed. My son actually lasted the longest sitting next to this kid than all the other students. He had tremendous patience. Another thing was she sat this kid the FARTHEST away as she could from her desk, where she spends the most of her time and does most of her teaching.
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Post by leannec on Aug 16, 2014 2:18:24 GMT
Another thing was she sat this kid the FARTHEST away as she could from her desk, where she spends the most of her time and does most of her teaching. I teach junior high but I think it's the same regardless ... I put my most challenging students closest to my desk so that I can keep an eye on them ... why a teacher would put them farther away makes no sense ... that just leads to more class disruption ... |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 16, 2014 3:14:58 GMT
Another thing was she sat this kid the FARTHEST away as she could from her desk, where she spends the most of her time and does most of her teaching. I teach junior high but I think it's the same regardless ... I put my most challenging students closest to my desk so that I can keep an eye on them ... why a teacher would put them farther away makes no sense ... that just leads to more class disruption ... To me, it was like "out of sight, out of mind". She didn't want to deal with him anymore. |
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Post by leannec on Aug 16, 2014 3:43:58 GMT
I teach junior high but I think it's the same regardless ... I put my most challenging students closest to my desk so that I can keep an eye on them ... why a teacher would put them farther away makes no sense ... that just leads to more class disruption ... To me, it was like "out of sight, out of mind". She didn't want to deal with him anymore. Sad ... is she new to teaching? |
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Post by peasapie on Aug 16, 2014 3:57:36 GMT
I have had students who are disruptive and distractible. If you put a child like that near your desk, they will be distracted by every single thing that goes on up there. It's not always the best solution. Often they are better separated but at the back or side of the room.
If I'm reading this correctly, the teacher moved the student around throughout the year so that no one child had to tolerate him exclusively. Is that right? I have been in a similar position as a teacher and frankly, there aren't a lot of good alternatives. Even disruptive students have the right to being in a classroom (least restrictive environment).
I'm not clear, though, about why this is still bothering you now. Im sure you, too, made the best choices possible at the time for your son. Going forward, if he's in your son's class again, let the teacher know right away there is a conflict and you don't want him near your son.
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Post by freecharlie on Aug 16, 2014 4:01:44 GMT
It depends on the student and the classroom. Ideally, he would be wherever I spent the most time, which would NOT be near my desk. When I taught elementary, I was rarely, if ever, at my desk while there were students in the class. I taught from the front, so the student would be up front.
In the situation you described, I'd put him on the end without a desk partner so that there was a blank space between him and the person next to him.
Sometimes, if the function of the behavior is attention, moving the student out of line of sight of the other students is actually beneficial. So there are students and/or behaviors that the intervention would be to be at the back of the classroom or facing the wall.
Too often IEPs are written and the words "preferential seating" are included without describing what that means. Preferential seating looks different for different students.
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bugsy
Shy Member
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Post by bugsy on Aug 16, 2014 10:45:26 GMT
It depends on the student and the classroom. Ideally, he would be wherever I spent the most time, which would NOT be near my desk. When I taught elementary, I was rarely, if ever, at my desk while there were students in the class. I taught from the front, so the student would be up front.  Elementary teachers spend very little time at their desks so placing the child closer to the teacher would probably not have them sitting by the teacher's desk. In my case, I spend a lot of time at the side of the classroom because that's where my reading tables and ELMO/document camera are. Disruptive students are placed there in our normal seating arrangement and moved even closer if I need to put distance between them and their classmates. I don't have a problem with parents requesting different seating placement for their child if there's an issue like you describe. If I'm approached in a reasonable manner and there are options for moving students that work well for all parties, I'm open to it. If you (general you here) come in with both barrels blazing telling me what I will and will not do when you know only part of the story, it's more problematic. |
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Post by monklady123 on Aug 16, 2014 10:54:43 GMT
My first thought was that by moving this kid around the teacher was trying to find someone he could sit next to without causing trouble. ugh. I have one kid who is the proverbial "good little girl" and over the years she's suffered because of this "method" of trying to deal with a disruptive kid. Fortunately she wasn't my first child so by the time she came along I was perfectly comfortable going into the school and telling the teacher to please not use my child as an approach to discipline. Yes, "telling". Not "asking". I don't see why the good kids have to deal with this just because they behave. Especially not in the younger grades. The school needs to figure out how to deal with the problem kids, not put that onto other kids. I do feel sorry for those kids, but I think the best thing for the rest of the class is to separate the kid. I'm not a teacher, but I don't understand what's wrong with saying to the kid "look, you've been told not to do [fill in the blank with whatever annoying behavior is going on], but you did. So now your desk is over here away from others. You may move back when you can keep your hands off of others kids' stuff [or whatever]." Then go on from there. Pet peeve of mine.  And yes, I'm long past that at this point. However, one of my neighbors has a 2nd grade girl and the exact same thing happened to her last year. The mom and I have had a chat and she isn't going to allow it this year. |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 17, 2014 1:54:38 GMT
To me, it was like "out of sight, out of mind". She didn't want to deal with him anymore. Sad ... is she new to teaching? No, she's a seasoned teacher and team leader for 2nd grade. My 11th grader had her for 1st grade. |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 17, 2014 2:22:01 GMT
I have had students who are disruptive and distractible. If you put a child like that near your desk, they will be distracted by every single thing that goes on up there. It's not always the best solution. Often they are better separated but at the back or side of the room. If I'm reading this correctly, the teacher moved the student around throughout the year so that no one child had to tolerate him exclusively. Is that right? I have been in a similar position as a teacher and frankly, there aren't a lot of good alternatives. Even disruptive students have the right to being in a classroom (least restrictive environment). I'm not clear, though, about why this is still bothering you now. Im sure you, too, made the best choices possible at the time for your son. Going forward, if he's in your son's class again, let the teacher know right away there is a conflict and you don't want him near your son. I know, it's stupid that it's still bugging me. I was just curious how teacher's handle these situations. My son was so patient with this boy. This boy is very socially immature. I felt bad for him and kept telling my son to be nice. You know trying to teach your kids empathy and all that. It backfired on my son because this boy began a fixation of some sort on my son. Following him around school and blaming him for stuff. My son would be on the swings and this boy would be counting down the seconds until my son was supposed finish his turn. The final thing was when he accused my son of beating him up after school. At one point the principal had to have them both in the office and tell them to stay away from each other. That was fine with my son. Not 10 minutes later at morning recess, this kid is bothering my son again. There's way more detail to this story. Let's just say the last 6 weeks of 2nd grade for my son was not good and I was really disappointed in his teacher. |
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Post by *leslie* on Aug 17, 2014 2:28:57 GMT
Thank you everyone for commenting.
The teacher's desk is right next to her smart board so she teaches from her desk.
Monklady, my son is like your daughter. While every other kid in the class sat next to this boy maybe 2-3 weeks, my son lasted months! I asked him one time how things were going and he said, "I just ignore him".
My last discussion with the principal regarding this issue was that I didn't want this boy in my son's class in 3rd grade and he's not.
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Post by Merge on Aug 17, 2014 2:34:02 GMT
Wow, until you mentioned it was 2nd grade, I was starting to think you might be a parent from my school. We had an issue like this between two boys in 5th grade last year - the annoying behavior, the fixation, the targeting and accusations. It was difficult for all of us to have them in class because the one boy would find ways to seek out the other even when they were separated.
Some kids really struggle with social skills. Being annoying is not, in and of itself, a crime. So we have to focus on the specific inappropriate behaviors and it can be difficult, because as soon as we outlaw one behavior the immature kid will invent a different one, just to seek continued attention.
Often the kids with these issues have had a difficult life so some extra patience is needed. But if there is a specific, unhealthy fixation I wouldn't hesitate to request my child be placed in a different class than the disruptive one.
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Post by Linda on Aug 17, 2014 2:42:30 GMT
My first thought was that by moving this kid around the teacher was trying to find someone he could sit next to without causing trouble. ugh. I have one kid who is the proverbial "good little girl" and over the years she's suffered because of this "method" of trying to deal with a disruptive kid. Fortunately she wasn't my first child so by the time she came along I was perfectly comfortable going into the school and telling the teacher to please not use my child as an approach to discipline. Thank you for the reminder to keep an eye on this situation this year - I have the proverbial 'good little girl' also - and she got moved/had her tablemates moved regularly last year because she wouldn't talk/socialise in class if the teacher said don't so they kept moving the talkers next to her. |
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Post by iteach3rdgrade on Aug 17, 2014 4:45:16 GMT
It isn't fair to punish the other students. Last year I had a girl that bothered everyone she sat with. She had a strong quirky personality and kids couldn't tolerate it for long. We made it through the year, but we had some very frank discussions about seating arrangements. She wasn't a behavior problem. It broke my heart when we had to talk about these issues.
Kids love to sit in groups. We have rules for sitting in groups and it's a privilege. Students with issues will be placed near my desk and with their back away from the class most of the time. Rows are next and then in a row with an empty desk. Completely away from a group and back by my desk is the last resort. I will use my table, too since it's away from students.
Last year, I asked the teacher to keep one boy away from my son and to separate him for this school year. He was mean to others and decided to bother my son. Most teachers try to be accommodating like this.
I think seating arrangements are fascinating and how students act in different places.
This year I have two students that were paired together a lot to work together last year. Neither are behavior problems, but I don't want one child being responsible all of the time for another child.
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. Have you spoken with the teacher?
Elementary teachers spend very little time at their desks so placing the child closer to the teacher would probably not have them sitting by the teacher's desk. In my case, I spend a lot of time at the side of the classroom because that's where my reading tables and ELMO/document camera are. Disruptive students are placed there in our normal seating arrangement and moved even closer if I need to put distance between them and their classmates.
And yes, I'm long past that at this point. However, one of my neighbors has a 2nd grade girl and the exact same thing happened to her last year. The mom and I have had a chat and she isn't going to allow it this year. 
