pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,646
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2017 14:57:16 GMT
Why would any. single. person. on. this. board. be okay with Trump's future National Security Advisor telling the Russians not to worry about sanctions for them tampering with our elections because Trump would dismiss them all? What is the possible defense? What? This is not offered as a defense, but... A lot of people in this country likely don't believe that any of this will have any bearing on their day-to-day life. They aren't going to be spied on, they have nothing to lose in terms of assets because they live paycheck to paycheck, if Russia decides to full on invade one of the former Soviet states and the US basically lets them, what does it matter to them, it's halfway around the world. It's not like their kids are going to be sent off to fight for Ukraine or wherever. If countries in Asia build up their military, then good, they can take care of North Korea and we don't have to. Basically, they have no skin in the game and much more immediate things to worry about closer to home. Most of us under the age of 65 (those who experienced Vietnam first hand) have no experiences with the heavy loss of life war can bring. Most of us under the age of 90 have no experience with the rationing and an entire nation being directed to a war effort like WWII (and the massive loss of life). The Cold War is decades past now, and turned out to be from a day-to-day US life perspective a lot of smoke, and no fire. So that's the worst that can happen, right? To us devastation is such an abstract concept, and easy to look around all our modern conveniences and luxury that the idea that it could all disappear...complete and utter nonsense. That happens in other, less civilized, parts of the world, it doesn't happen here. If you believe that this has the potential to be prelude to the next world war, and that we no longer have the protection of geography (this started with hacking, what else do we have that can be hacked), the idea of a foreign government as powerful as Russia having the ability to manipulate the "leader of the free world," gives them access to our defense capabilities, our intelligence, our economy, our infrastructure, our everything. And no matter your political affiliation that should scare the crap out of you. If you believe, all of this means the stock market may wobble around a bit, and you or your family members lose their job again, like every other time rich people play with fire, what difference does it make if it's Russia pulling strings or not? But I think the answer to why don't more people care...because they can't see the impact on their life. Absolutely. That's why I think healthcare will be the issue that determines midterms and possibly 2020 because it directly impacts people's lives. And people seem to care a lot about gas prices, so anything that drives those up (like dropping out of NAFTA), would catch people's attention.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,646
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2017 15:03:27 GMT
You know what, if it doesn't describe you, don't take offense. If YOU'RE paying attention, I'm not talking about you. But I'm also no longer going to pussyfoot around about the abject ignorance of a good number of his supporters. Pretending otherwise isn't going to help your side OR mine. I don't expect for you to "pussyfoot" around. And, trust me, I'm not offended by your statement because I think it's arrogant. If people don't believe the way you believe then you think they're less knowledgeable than you are. I can disagree with you but also appreciate that you have given it an intelligent thought. When there are polls indicating that 30% of people don't know that ACA and Obamacare are the same thing or that they believe the Bowling Green Massacre is a good reason to ban Muslims, then yes, we have a basic problem with knowledge. I constantly see misinformation and flat out lies people believe and use to support their ideas. That doesn't mean somebody is dumb if I disagree with them. And for as much as people like to call liberals snowflakes, from my personal experience it's the conservatives who cut and run and can't handle somebody questioning their ideas or taking offense at every damn thing. For instance, do you have thoughts on Russia, or did you just come in this thread to whine about the mean liberals?
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pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817
Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Feb 15, 2017 15:13:11 GMT
The other consideration is this - would senior Russian officials talk to Flynn if he didn't have any sort of authorization/pull on the admin?
If you or I called the Kremlin and offered to lift sanctions, they wouldn't listen to us. They wouldn't even pass the call up to someone of importance. Flynn only spoke with people with any sort of power because he was viewed as being someone who could speak on behalf of the power in America.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
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procastinating
Posts: 5,538
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Feb 15, 2017 15:43:44 GMT
The other consideration is this - would senior Russian officials talk to Flynn if he didn't have any sort of authorization/pull on the admin? If you or I called the Kremlin and offered to lift sanctions, they wouldn't listen to us. They wouldn't even pass the call up to someone of importance. Flynn only spoke with people with any sort of power because he was viewed as being someone who could speak on behalf of the power in America. Yup, good point.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Feb 15, 2017 15:51:58 GMT
I feel that it's common sense to conclude that this goes all the way to the top. There is no reason for Flynn or aides to be calling to just shoot the breeze. There is no reason that Flynn should've felt he could reassure the Russians not to worry about sanctions unless he was instructed to do so. I checked some of my most ardent Trump supporting friends & family and their social media is still focused on the Muslim ban with memes of things such as Cowboys vs Muslims, gun toting veterans ready to take on terrorists, etc. Because yeah, the imaginary Muslim terrorists are going to come their 20 acre stronghold and want to turn their rancher into a jihadist training camp (sarcasm). Not any mention of Flynn or concerns of Russia. ^^^ THIS. Flynn is retired military; he would have KNOWN BETTER than to go calling on Russians unless instructed to do so by someone. I truly believe this is all on Donald Trump; I believe he really thought the 'rules' of politicians didn't apply to him, and that he was doing things the way a businessman would do them-- business people feel out their contacts before making a deal, etc. And now that he's in office, he's found out that politics ARE actually different (in some ways) than business. This morning on Morning Edition, Steve Inskeep said it-- "by not investigating the Russian connection, it looks like Republicans are putting party over country." Of course, Rand Paul said, "Oh, no... not really" and tried to backpedal-- but it really does look like that.Yes, it really does look like that when the administration all the way from the top down has no interest whatsoever in any kind of transparency, and hasn't from the very beginning. When you get so much "move along, nothing to see here..." from the *entire* party--yeah, there probably IS something to see there, and somebody ought to go digging.
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Post by mellyw on Feb 15, 2017 15:52:28 GMT
Not going to lie, the absolute whining from the man who publicly told us of his love of Wiki-Leaks, who asked Russia to please hack us for those missing e-mails, is an absolute joy for me. Everything would be O.K if people would just stop leaking, just like he most likely wouldn't be President if Russia/Wikileaks hadn't leaked. Oh...wait!
What this President and his team failed to realize, in their rush to solidify their outsider status, is politics is a game. And they pissed off 2 big players in the game, the Federal Bureaucracy and the Press, or the opposition party in their fucked up world. So to see them bite back, is pretty damn sweet.
And while I agree this isn't making a dent is his supporters, I live by the political creed that, It's not the crime, it's the cover up, that will trip them up. Not to mention we're not quite a month in, something will happen that effects his supporters, and Republicans will be forced to act.
Personal opinion, President Bannon could see the writing on the wall that his patsy isn't quite suited for the job, and push his agenda too hard and/or they throw Flynn under the bus and he squeals like a pig.
Not to mention the fervor to confront Iran and China could trigger an ugly war. My bets are on Iran, especially with the dumb fucks thinking they can stop an Iranian ship in International waters to search for weapons headed to Yemen without serious consequences ( I believe I read that in the NYT's). There's a reason our government has known since the 70's that Iran has had a hand in terrorism directed at us, but we've kept a slight hands off policy. That right there could trigger a rise in gas prices, not to mention sons and daughters headed to another Middle Eastern war that I can not see us "winning" without a force sizable enough to hold that country for years. And who the hell they think would be our allies in this desired war with Iran I do not know. Kind of hard to get your NATO allies to come along after all the shit you've spewed about them.
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Post by mellyw on Feb 15, 2017 15:57:56 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,646
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2017 16:02:05 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe. Hubris. Flynn, as well as others in the administration, seem to think they are above the law. Maybe he knew there was a wire tap but was arrogant enough to think nothing would come of it - like maybe his superiors assured him it was okay. And if it weren't for a leak, it might have been. And the journalists who pursued this. Shows how important a free press is right now - I know it's really hit home for me. I now have subscriptions to the NYT and WaPo and set up a recurring monthly donation to my local NPR.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Feb 15, 2017 16:17:33 GMT
The other consideration is this - would senior Russian officials talk to Flynn if he didn't have any sort of authorization/pull on the admin? If you or I called the Kremlin and offered to lift sanctions, they wouldn't listen to us. They wouldn't even pass the call up to someone of importance. Flynn only spoke with people with any sort of power because he was viewed as being someone who could speak on behalf of the power in America. I'm not sure what you mean about authorization/pull on the admin. Flynn had already been named as the incoming National Security Advisor (I think Trump named him back in November) - so I would fully expect a Russian official to speak with him and believe he was speaking for the incoming President.
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Post by mellyw on Feb 15, 2017 16:25:31 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe. Hubris. Flynn, as well as others in the administration, seem to think they are above the law. Maybe he knew there was a wire tap but was arrogant enough to think nothing would come of it - like maybe his superiors assured him it was okay. And if it weren't for a leak, it might have been. And the journalists who pursued this. Shows how important a free press is right now - I know it's really hit home for me. I now have subscriptions to the NYT and WaPo and set up a recurring monthly donation to my local NPR. From all my reading, people have said Flynn has changed, become very extreme, which worsened when he made it into Trumps orbit. So I can see him believing his superior, that it would all be O.K. I literally make it about 10 seconds of Trump on my T.V before the rage sets in, so I've moved to mostly print sources also. We don't really "do" Valentine's Day, but my DH gave me subscriptions to the NYT and WaPo yesterday. He's a good guy, or maybe he's just happy to not have the news on 24/7 and it was really a gift to himself.
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pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,817
Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Feb 15, 2017 16:30:10 GMT
The other consideration is this - would senior Russian officials talk to Flynn if he didn't have any sort of authorization/pull on the admin? If you or I called the Kremlin and offered to lift sanctions, they wouldn't listen to us. They wouldn't even pass the call up to someone of importance. Flynn only spoke with people with any sort of power because he was viewed as being someone who could speak on behalf of the power in America. I'm not sure what you mean about authorization/pull on the admin. Flynn had already been named as the incoming National Security Advisor (I think Trump named him back in November) - so I would fully expect a Russian official to speak with him and believe he was speaking for the incoming President. I agree completely - he was speaking on behalf of the incoming president. But I have already seen it being tossed about that "oh, he was going rogue, Trump didn't know, Trump didn't authorize it." Because if that were the case, throwing Flynn under the bus would give plausible deniability to Pence and Trump.
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Post by micheley on Feb 15, 2017 16:33:57 GMT
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Jun 26, 2024 0:36:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 16:39:05 GMT
Not going to lie, the absolute whining from the man who publicly told us of his love of Wiki-Leaks, who asked Russia to please hack us for those missing e-mails, is an absolute joy for me. Everything would be O.K if people would just stop leaking, just like he most likely wouldn't be President if Russia/Wikileaks hadn't leaked. Oh...wait! What this President and his team failed to realize, in their rush to solidify their outsider status, is politics is a game. And they pissed off 2 big players in the game, the Federal Bureaucracy and the Press, or the opposition party in their fucked up world. So to see them bite back, is pretty damn sweet. And while I agree this isn't making a dent is his supporters, I live by the political creed that, It's not the crime, it's the cover up, that will trip them up. Not to mention we're not quite a month in, something will happen that effects his supporters, and Republicans will be forced to act. Personal opinion, President Bannon could see the writing on the wall that his patsy isn't quite suited for the job, and push his agenda too hard and/or they throw Flynn under the bus and he squeals like a pig. Not to mention the fervor to confront Iran and China could trigger an ugly war. My bets are on Iran, especially with the dumb fucks thinking they can stop an Iranian ship in International waters to search for weapons headed to Yemen without serious consequences ( I believe I read that in the NYT's). There's a reason our government has known since the 70's that Iran has had a hand in terrorism directed at us, but we've kept a slight hands off policy. That right there could trigger a rise in gas prices, not to mention sons and daughters headed to another Middle Eastern war that I can not see us "winning" without a force sizable enough to hold that country for years. And who the hell they think would be our allies in this desired war with Iran I do not know. Kind of hard to get your NATO allies to come along after all the shit you've spewed about them.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,646
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Feb 15, 2017 16:39:08 GMT
Hubris. Flynn, as well as others in the administration, seem to think they are above the law. Maybe he knew there was a wire tap but was arrogant enough to think nothing would come of it - like maybe his superiors assured him it was okay. And if it weren't for a leak, it might have been. And the journalists who pursued this. Shows how important a free press is right now - I know it's really hit home for me. I now have subscriptions to the NYT and WaPo and set up a recurring monthly donation to my local NPR. From all my reading, people have said Flynn has changed, become very extreme, which worsened when he made it into Trumps orbit. So I can see him believing his superior, that it would all be O.K. I literally make it about 10 seconds of Trump on my T.V before the rage sets in, so I've moved to mostly print sources also. We don't really "do" Valentine's Day, but my DH gave me subscriptions to the NYT and WaPo yesterday. He's a good guy, or maybe he's just happy to not have the news on 24/7 and it was really a gift to himself. Had to smile at your husband gifting himself a TV news free zone by gifting you subscriptions, lol. We don't have cable, so don't watch news in our household - the majority of my news comes from reading or from podcasts.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Posts: 6,037
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Feb 15, 2017 18:18:11 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe. He wasn't just a 3 star general, he was the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. He worked in intelligence, at the highest levels. Until Pres Obama fired him for allegedly being too abrasive/chaotic of a leader, and playing too loose with the truth aka "Flynn Facts." www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/09/15/michael-flynn-trumps-military-adviser-says-colin-powells-emails-include-really-mean-things/?utm_term=.7666ae63aebc
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Post by hop2 on Feb 15, 2017 20:25:44 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe. I mean really! Has he never watched TV? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/5645536/images/Q_m8lDOvc_3Le3r1GKdf.jpg) I'm pretty sure there are a kabillionty TV spy/FBI/cop shows with the theme of 'monitoring the Russian diplomats. And you have to think of the possibility? No? I would. Maybe I watch too much TV lol
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Post by Really Red on Feb 15, 2017 20:50:43 GMT
One more point, how the hell a retired 3 Star General didn't know that we wire tap the Russian Ambassador? That's why this whole thing screams Donald Trump to me. He wouldn't have the working knowledge of how our Intelligence Agencies work, and I can easily see him overriding any concerns Flynn had. Cause, you know, he's the smartest, bestest human being on the planet...probably the universe. He wasn't just a 3 star general, he was the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. He worked in intelligence, at the highest levels. Until Pres Obama fired him for allegedly being too abrasive/chaotic of a leader, and playing too loose with the truth aka "Flynn Facts." www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/09/15/michael-flynn-trumps-military-adviser-says-colin-powells-emails-include-really-mean-things/?utm_term=.7666ae63aebcI am just flabbergasted. I honestly don't know what more to say about this nightmare we have found ourselves in. What kind of men and women think any of this is okay? Where is their integrity? Where is their basic concern about America? How can we be talking with Russia as if they were our allies? Why would ANYONE think that is okay? There hasn't been one single day that has passed in the past month that I haven't shaken my head and said WTF. Other days are worse than some, but if any one - ANY ONE OF THE THOUSAND THINGS - that Trump has done was done by a Democrat, his or her head would be on the table. Thank goodness no Trump supporter has said one word to me, because I am certain I would tell them coldly they were a moron.
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