|
Post by sweetshabbyroses on Aug 23, 2014 14:49:26 GMT
I'm really getting into the Outlander series!!! I've actually gone back and started reading the series again. Here's my question: I have an ancestor that was a Scottish Covenantor, left Scotland around 1744. If he was a Covenantor wouldn't he have been a Jacobite? I'm having a little trouble getting this Jacobite belief in my my mind. I know they were followers of King James.....right? At first I thought the whole Jacobite thing was English vs. Scottish but now I'm not so sure.
|
|
|
Post by femalebusiness on Aug 23, 2014 15:21:18 GMT
I have no idea but hope someone does as I have Scottish ancestors too and am interested in the answer.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Aug 23, 2014 15:29:58 GMT
The Jacobites supported King James Stuart (a Catholic) as the rightful king of Scotland and England; loyalists and the English in general supported King George, a Protestant.
The Covenanters were Protestants who supported Presbyterianism as the national Church of Scotland.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 10, 2024 10:21:12 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 15:50:17 GMT
The covenanters were the opposition to the Stuart dynasty to the divine right of the Presbyterian Church. Jacobitism came later. Here's the history of the History of the Covenanters
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 10, 2024 10:21:12 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 16:49:29 GMT
The Jacobites supported King James Stuart (a Catholic) as the rightful king of Scotland and England; loyalists and the English in general supported King George, a Protestant. The Covenanters were Protestants who supported Presbyterianism as the national Church of Scotland. King James II was the King of Britain as a whole not just Scotland. King George came a long long time after him. William III ( William of Orange) and later Queen Anne reigned. It was after these two that King George I came to the throne.
|
|
|
Post by pierogi on Aug 23, 2014 17:17:30 GMT
Covenanter refers to religion. Jacobite was a political designation. If he wasn't a covenanter, he might have been Anglican. My Scottish ancestors were/remained Catholic, which was incredibly rare. They were both mistrusted and killed for it. (Thanks, Campbells.) Where is your ancestor from?
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Aug 23, 2014 17:20:30 GMT
The Jacobites supported King James Stuart (a Catholic) as the rightful king of Scotland and England; loyalists and the English in general supported King George, a Protestant. The Covenanters were Protestants who supported Presbyterianism as the national Church of Scotland. King James II was the King of Britain as a whole not just Scotland. King George came a long long time after him. William III ( William of Orange) and later Queen Anne reigned. It was after these two that King George I came to the throne. Yes, I was referring to James Stuart, father of Charles. Who never became king but was referred to as such by the Jacobites. Sorry I was unclear.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 10, 2024 10:21:12 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 17:48:19 GMT
King James II was the King of Britain as a whole not just Scotland. King George came a long long time after him. William III ( William of Orange) and later Queen Anne reigned. It was after these two that King George I came to the throne. Yes, I was referring to James Stuart, father of Charles. Who never became king but was referred to as such by the Jacobites. Sorry I was unclear. If they didn't insist on giving their children the same name it would help all of us I think Merge The Jacobites were around a long time before he made an attempt for the throne though.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Aug 23, 2014 18:23:38 GMT
Yes, I was referring to James Stuart, father of Charles. Who never became king but was referred to as such by the Jacobites. Sorry I was unclear. If they didn't insist on giving their children the same name it would help all of us I think Merge The Jacobites were around a long time before he made an attempt for the throne though. Charts. We need charts. LOL
|
|
|
Post by winogirl on Aug 23, 2014 18:30:02 GMT
If they didn't insist on giving their children the same name it would help all of us I think Merge The Jacobites were around a long time before he made an attempt for the throne though. Charts. We need charts. LOL
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Aug 23, 2014 18:59:03 GMT
winogirl Thank you! Now, if I can only find my magnifying glasses I will spend some time with it. (I have old eyes that can't see for shit anymore. LOL)
|
|
|
Post by winogirl on Aug 23, 2014 20:04:28 GMT
I know, I can barely read it myself but I don't know how to enlarge it.
But here's a little more history: The Catholic King James II was largely tolerated because it was known that his only two heirs from his first wife Anne Hyde, daughters Mary and Anne, were both protestant.
After Anne Hyde died, he remarried to Mary of Modena, who was only 15 at that time in 1673. In the following nine years she gave birth to four children, but none survived more than a few months except a daughter who only lived a few short years.
Meanwhile, the heiress presumptive daughter Mary moved to Holland and married William of Orange.
Unexpectedly, Mary of Modena gave birth to a healthy son in 1688, which of course due to primogeniture laws, would usurp Mary and William's right to the throne. Rumors were immediately circulated that the baby was smuggled into the Queen's bed and was not really a true heir to the throne. (Which IMO, I find rather ridiculous and Mary would have still been of child-bearing age.)
Later that year, William marched to London with Protestant support, with Mary soon following.
James II felt deserted and panicked, he, Mary of Modena and their son, the would-be James III fled to France and was given asylum by Louis XIV who gave him a palace to set up court in exile and became the focus for the Jacobites.
Parliament declared James II abdicated the throne. In April 1689, Parliament decided to offer the throne to William and Mary jointly. Mary died in 1694 and William died in 1702 with no heirs, so Mary's sister Anne took the throne. She died in 1714 with no living heirs, so that ended the House of Stuart and the crown went to George I of Hanover.
Meanwhile, in exile, James III declared himself King of England and Scotland upon the death of his father in 1701. Despite the fact that France, Spain and the papal states recognized him as such (they never acknowledged William & Mary or Anne), he never successfully regained the throne and ruled only in exile. He married Maria Clementina Sobieska granddaughter of King John III Sobieska of Poland. They had 2 sons, the eldest being the charismatic Charles Edward Stuart or "Bonnie Prince Charlie" born in 1720.
Supported by the French and with the aid of Highland Clans, Bonnie Prince Charlie managed to march on Scotland with some success in 1745. The victory was short-lived though and The Battle of Culloden outside Inverness was a disaster for the Prince and he escaped back to France. That was the end of attempts to restore the House of Stuart and Bonnie Prince Charlie died in 1788, still in exile.
If anyone read all that you must either like history or be very bored today, lol. I read a book on Bonnie Prince Charlie because I stayed at Stuart Castle which is nearby the Battle of Culloden and has portraits of the battle and the Bonnie Prince hanging in the castle. Dang it though, their website is down because the castle is currently being renovated.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Aug 23, 2014 20:13:03 GMT
winogirlI read every word. I love history...so much so, that is what my degree is in. But in another subject area, and most of European history remains in a mystery. So, thank you!! The best I can say is that I read the Outlander books and still missed a lot of the nuances of the history of the time.
|
|
|
Post by sweetshabbyroses on Aug 23, 2014 22:48:03 GMT
Thanks winogirl!! Seems kind of odd that King James II would desert his own country just because his daughter and her husband were trying to take his throne..............if I'm understanding it correctly.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 10, 2024 10:21:12 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 23:23:58 GMT
Thanks winogirl!! Seems kind of odd that King James II would desert his own country just because his daughter and her husband were trying to take his throne..............if I'm understanding it correctly. It wasn't quite so straightforward as deserting his country. He'd made a few enemies and it was more like everyone else deserted him. Both his daughters were protestant,he was catholic having been influenced to that faith while in France and then of course his second wife was a catholic and there was a child of that marriage ( the one they said had been planted there,some say to make sure that there was a Catholic in line to the throne).Therefore a strong possibility that a Catholic would gain succession to the throne made William of Orange with the blessing of his wife ( James II daughter) to invade Britain from the Netherlands. If nothing else, our History is certainly complicated to understand Here's a larger print of the Royal tree at that time if you press ctrl and + on your keyboard it will magnify it for you.
|
|