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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2017 19:08:40 GMT
No, I did not ask about shooting 3x into a car, I asked about using a Taser vs gun specifically. He has lots to say about what he sees and what things can be done to help make things better, however, its not all universal as issues in communities differ. He goes into the community he serves and is not just a LEO, he is active in and promotes community well being. Never ever have I heard my friend use racial slurs. Well god then. I so very much apologize for posting something that I learned that I thought I would share. Smh My response to you was curt. I would have loved to hear his thoughts particularly as it relates to solutions and I could have worded it better. The hate crime not yet classified as a hate crime in Maryland had a side story where a police employee can be seen on Facebook commenting in a congratulatory way to the killer...all while using pretty derogatory language. We need to admit a large number of police have similar views otherwise we wouldn't have so many dead black people. And I don't think I need to say no one is reporting on non-fatal instances of police abuse...it's not happening. Look at the justice system in totality. Look at the history of black people in totality. Get it? If you have an obligation to protect and serve the community I don't get why a segment of America gets a death sentence while everyone sits around sorry it all happened. We should all be doing something. They have a responsibility to us. I don't get why the onus is placed on the dead citizen. Your response was assholian to me. I stated--from my the get go--that my conversation was not in judgment of the victim. You must have ignored that. I, not once, placed the onus on the dead citizens--that is your projection. Then you switched up by changing from A woman charging police with a knife to police shooting into a car. I was specifically sharing what I learned in the taser vs gun conversation. They weren't the same. You're insulting and offensive to those who put forth any comments, feelings, support to your posts. You assume that we do nothing and just sit around giving out lame "sorry's". You assume that we do and say nothing within our community. You're wrong about many of us and you need to stop making those assumptions. |
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Post by annabella on Jun 21, 2017 19:41:21 GMT
We need to admit a large number of police have similar views otherwise we wouldn't have so many dead black people. More black people are killed at the hands of other black people than police officers. You can't expect us to jump on the defense of every black person who was killed by police. We weren't there and didn't see it go down. The officers are heard on the recording as saying "get back" so we can only speculate that she was advancing on them. An investigation has to be done to determine if shooting her was warranted. I'm not defending the officers and believe that police should be taught not to shoot to kill in every instance. The officers are well aware of the tensions going on in this country and in spite of that it seems they truly felt their lives were at risk and made a split second decision that they didn't want to leave the apt with a mentally unstable person holding a knife with children. Wouldn't a taser have worked? The officers didn't have tasers on them so I'm sure this will set some things in motion for Seattle officers. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 19:45:02 GMT
We need to admit a large number of police have similar views otherwise we wouldn't have so many dead black people. More black people are killed at the hands of other black people than police officers. You can't expect us to jump on the defense of every black person who was killed by police. We weren't there and didn't see it go down. The officers are heard on the recording as saying "get back" so we can only speculate that she was advancing on them. An investigation has to be done to determine if shooting her was warranted. I'm not defending the officers and believe that police should be taught not to shoot to kill in every instance. The officers are well aware of the tensions going on in this country and in spite of that it seems they truly felt their lives were at risk and made a split second decision that they didn't want to leave the apt with a mentally unstable person holding a knife with children. Wouldn't a taser have worked? The officers didn't have tasers on them so I'm sure this will set some things in motion for Seattle officers. Even if the black on black crime was an effective argument the police have a responsibility to protect and serve. Why isn't the standard higher for these men and women? |
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Post by AnotherPea on Jun 21, 2017 22:04:07 GMT
Olan, what are your feelings towards black police officers that shoot when they feel their lives are in danger? Are they also driven by racism?
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 21, 2017 22:29:21 GMT
More black people are killed at the hands of other black people than police officers. You can't expect us to jump on the defense of every black person who was killed by police. We weren't there and didn't see it go down. The officers are heard on the recording as saying "get back" so we can only speculate that she was advancing on them. An investigation has to be done to determine if shooting her was warranted. I'm not defending the officers and believe that police should be taught not to shoot to kill in every instance. The officers are well aware of the tensions going on in this country and in spite of that it seems they truly felt their lives were at risk and made a split second decision that they didn't want to leave the apt with a mentally unstable person holding a knife with children. The officers didn't have tasers on them so I'm sure this will set some things in motion for Seattle officers. Even if the black on black crime was an effective argument the police have a responsibility to protect and serve. Why isn't the standard higher for these men and women? My friend would like to know (as would I) what you suggest they do when someone is advancing on them with a knife or gun or violently. |
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 22:51:46 GMT
Even if the black on black crime was an effective argument the police have a responsibility to protect and serve. Why isn't the standard higher for these men and women? Look at the justice system in totality. Look at the history of black people in totality. Get it? If you have an obligation to protect and serve the community I don't get why a segment of America gets a death sentence while everyone sits around sorry it all happened. We should all be doing something. They have a responsibility to us. I don't get why the onus is placed on the dead citizen. Olan, what are your feelings towards black police officers that shoot when they feel their lives are in danger? Are they also driven by racism? Unanswered questions but let me tackle this hypothetical one about dead unarmed white men! First a white officer who shoots because he is in fear of his life isn't automatically driven by racism. If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing. Since this is completely hypothetical anyway....what if the white officer actually shot a white citizen this time? No racism there right? If an officer bases his fear of a citizen on the color of a citizens skin THAT ISN'T RIGHT. What else explains the number of unarmed black men being killed at the hands of police. Is it because there are no white people with broken tail lights? nooooooooooooooooo Here is what racism looks like: Terence Cruthcher If you were the helicopter pilot would you be able to identify if someone was dangerous from the air? Do you think black men are inherently dangerous? Be honest. Do you recognize the lengths people have gone to make everyone believe black people are dangerous? If we are so dangerous why aren't we behaving in retaliatory savages ways in response to our constant mistreatment at the hands of white people? AliveAliveAliveAliveAliveAlive All 177Alive & FedYep you guessed it Alive3 month Sentence Alive & Well |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 22:58:26 GMT
Even if the black on black crime was an effective argument the police have a responsibility to protect and serve. Why isn't the standard higher for these men and women? Look at the justice system in totality. Look at the history of black people in totality. Get it? If you have an obligation to protect and serve the community I don't get why a segment of America gets a death sentence while everyone sits around sorry it all happened. We should all be doing something. They have a responsibility to us. I don't get why the onus is placed on the dead citizen. Olan, what are your feelings towards black police officers that shoot when they feel their lives are in danger? Are they also driven by racism? Unanswered questions but let me tackle this hypothetical one about dead unarmed white men! First a white officer who shoots because he is in fear of his life isn't automatically driven by racism. If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing. Since this is completely hypothetical anyway....what if the white officer actually shot a white citizen this time? No racism there right? If an officer bases his fear of a citizen on the color of a citizens skin THAT ISN'T RIGHT. What else explains the number of unarmed black men being killed at the hands of police. Is it because there are no white people with broken tail lights? nooooooooooooooooo Here is what racism looks like: Terence Cruthcher If you were the helicopter pilot would you be able to identify if someone was dangerous from the air? Do you think black men are inherently dangerous? Be honest. Do you recognize the lengths people have gone to make everyone believe black people are dangerous? If we are so dangerous why aren't we behaving in retaliatory savages ways in response to our constant mistreatment at the hands of white people? AliveAliveAliveAliveAliveAlive All 177Alive & FedYep you guessed it Alive3 month Sentence Alive & WellFYI - it isn't just a hypothetical - unarmed white men are shot by police every year - last year 14 according to the Washington Post statistics. FYI 8, unarmed black men were shot by police. You can slice and dice the data anyway you like here: www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/And just so we're clear - I am NOT suggesting that there isn't a problem with interactions between African Americans and police - there are real issues and racisms is absolutely an issue. But it's important to not pretend that the police only mess up when dealing with one community. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:03:48 GMT
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 23:04:41 GMT
Even if the black on black crime was an effective argument the police have a responsibility to protect and serve. Why isn't the standard higher for these men and women? My friend would like to know (as would I) what you suggest they do when someone is advancing on them with a knife or gun or violently. Well I just did some research (you don't have to click alllll the links either) about what happens when white people advance at police or shoot innocent congregants/movie goers. Do you think he could use those same policing methods? Is the goal not bringing criminals to justice? Is justice served on the street? Does it involve a spray of bullets and no one taking personal responsibility? If a black officer shot a white unarmed man do you think he could go into court with the same I feared for my life defense? Has there every been any record of a black officer killing an unarmed citizen? Why isn't the standard higher? You never answered that. |
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Post by myshelly on Jun 21, 2017 23:07:37 GMT
OlanI don't understand this sentence you wrote: "If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing." In the two active threads on the board, we are talking about a woman who was in fact armed with a knife and a man who was in fact armed with a gun. But you are very angry about these two cases. So how do those statements go together? You also seem to completely discount what the data actually shows regarding the number of white people who are also killed by police. I think officers need more training in deescalation techniques. I think this country as a whole, law enforcement and the justice system included, needs a better approach to mental illness.
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 23:14:16 GMT
Unanswered questions but let me tackle this hypothetical one about dead unarmed white men! First a white officer who shoots because he is in fear of his life isn't automatically driven by racism. If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing. Since this is completely hypothetical anyway....what if the white officer actually shot a white citizen this time? No racism there right? If an officer bases his fear of a citizen on the color of a citizens skin THAT ISN'T RIGHT. What else explains the number of unarmed black men being killed at the hands of police. Is it because there are no white people with broken tail lights? nooooooooooooooooo Here is what racism looks like: Terence Cruthcher If you were the helicopter pilot would you be able to identify if someone was dangerous from the air? Do you think black men are inherently dangerous? Be honest. Do you recognize the lengths people have gone to make everyone believe black people are dangerous? If we are so dangerous why aren't we behaving in retaliatory savages ways in response to our constant mistreatment at the hands of white people? AliveAliveAliveAliveAliveAlive All 177Alive & FedYep you guessed it Alive3 month Sentence Alive & Well - unarmed white men are shot by police every year - last year 14 according to the Washington Post statistics. FYI 8, unarmed black men were shot by police. You can slice and dice the data anyway you like here: www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/And just so we're clear - I am NOT suggesting that there isn't a problem with interactions between African Americans and police - there are real issues and racisms is absolutely an issue. But it's important to not pretend that the police only mess up when dealing with one community. Her question was hypothetical she asked if a black police officer killed someone in fear of his life would I view it as racism. I'm not disputing that white men are sometimes killed by police. Those links show you that even people who deserve to get shot by police usually don't if they happen to have white skin. If you don't disagree there is racism and "real issues" why compare the number of black men killed to white men. For the record I do think there are instances where deadly force is needed. Not for tail lights. Not for mentally ill people. |
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 23:19:34 GMT
Olan I don't understand this sentence you wrote: "If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing." In the two active threads on the board, we are talking about a woman who was in fact armed with a knife and a man who was in fact armed with a gun. But you are very angry about these two cases. So how do those statements go together?You also seem to completely discount what the data actually shows regarding the number of white people who are also killed by police. I think officers need more training in deescalation techniques. I think this country as a whole, law enforcement and the justice system included, needs a better approach to mental illness. I am confident the number of black people killed by police isn't even being reported accurately. I don't care to compare the number of black men against white men because that still doesn't negate the whats happenings to black people. The statements don't contradict because I don't believe either Castile or Lyles met the dangerous requirement of shot to kill. One was mentally ill the other was a licensed gun holder with his family in the car. I'm not discounting the death of white citizens. Just like no one is discounting what I'm saying  . |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:21:00 GMT
FYI - it isn't just a hypothetical - unarmed white men are shot by police every year - last year 14 according to the Washington Post statistics. FYI 8, unarmed black men were shot by police. You can slice and dice the data anyway you like here: www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/And just so we're clear - I am NOT suggesting that there isn't a problem with interactions between African Americans and police - there are real issues and racisms is absolutely an issue. But it's important to not pretend that the police only mess up when dealing with one community. Her question was hypothetical she asked if a black police officer killed someone in fear of his life would I view it as racism. I'm not disputing that white men are sometimes killed by police. Those links show you that even people who deserve to get shot by police usually don't if they happen to have white skin. If you don't disagree there is racism and "real issues" why compare the number of black men killed to white men. For the record I do think there are instances where deadly force is needed. Not for tail lights. Not for mentally ill people. On this we'll have to disagree. Many mentally ill people are extremely dangerous. |
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 23:24:25 GMT
Her question was hypothetical she asked if a black police officer killed someone in fear of his life would I view it as racism. I'm not disputing that white men are sometimes killed by police. Those links show you that even people who deserve to get shot by police usually don't if they happen to have white skin. If you don't disagree there is racism and "real issues" why compare the number of black men killed to white men. For the record I do think there are instances where deadly force is needed. Not for tail lights. Not for mentally ill people. On this we'll have to disagree. Many mentally ill people are extremely dangerous. Again there is a misunderstanding. I didn't say mentally ill people were not dangerous. I said deadly force shouldn't be used. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:28:37 GMT
On this we'll have to disagree. Many mentally ill people are extremely dangerous. Again there is a misunderstanding. I didn't say mentally ill people were not dangerous. I said deadly force shouldn't be used. I don't think there is a misunderstanding, we're disagreeing if deadly force should be used on the mentally ill. I believe that sometimes it is unfortunately unavoidable. We had an incident near my hometown a few months ago where a mentally ill individual killed his wife and was holding his children at gunpoint. He refused to put down the weapon when police arrived and they shot him - I absolutely believe they were justified in using deadly force and his history of schizophrenia doesn't change that for me. |
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Post by Olan on Jun 21, 2017 23:35:53 GMT
I don't think there is a misunderstanding, we're disagreeing if deadly force should be used on the mentally ill. I believe that sometimes it is unfortunately unavoidable. We had an incident near my hometown a few months ago where a mentally ill individual killed his wife and was holding his children at gunpoint. He refused to put down the weapon when police arrived and they shot him - I absolutely believe they were justified in using deadly force and his history of schizophrenia doesn't change that for me. I didn't know we had jumped to hostage situations. Mentally ill people will often use police as a way to commit suicide without it being at their own hands. I think ever effort should be made to ensure a mentally ill person can receive help. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jun 21, 2017 23:42:13 GMT
I don't think there is a misunderstanding, we're disagreeing if deadly force should be used on the mentally ill. I believe that sometimes it is unfortunately unavoidable. We had an incident near my hometown a few months ago where a mentally ill individual killed his wife and was holding his children at gunpoint. He refused to put down the weapon when police arrived and they shot him - I absolutely believe they were justified in using deadly force and his history of schizophrenia doesn't change that for me. I didn't know we had jumped to hostage situations. Mentally ill people will often use police as a way to commit suicide without it being at their own hands. I think ever effort should be made to ensure a mentally ill person can receive help. It's the danger of a unilateral statement - ie earlier when you said deadly force shouldn't be used on the mentally ill - now this statement of "every effort should be used..." I can agree with entirely. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 21, 2017 23:59:14 GMT
Olan I don't understand this sentence you wrote: "If he shoots because he is in fear of his life and he kills a citizen who is later found to be armed we should congratulate the officer on his effective policing." In the two active threads on the board, we are talking about a woman who was in fact armed with a knife and a man who was in fact armed with a gun. But you are very angry about these two cases. So how do those statements go together?You also seem to completely discount what the data actually shows regarding the number of white people who are also killed by police. I think officers need more training in deescalation techniques. I think this country as a whole, law enforcement and the justice system included, needs a better approach to mental illness. I am confident the number of black people killed by police isn't even being reported accurately. I don't care to compare the number of black men against white men because that still doesn't negate the whats happenings to black people. The statements don't contradict because I don't believe either Castile or Lyles met the dangerous requirement of shot to kill. One was mentally ill the other was a licensed gun holder with his family in the car. I'm not discounting the death of white citizens. Just like no one is discounting what I'm saying . Olan, do you care about the number of blacks killings blacks. That's the number we should be most concerned with. |
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Post by Olan on Jun 22, 2017 0:06:03 GMT
I am confident the number of black people killed by police isn't even being reported accurately. I don't care to compare the number of black men against white men because that still doesn't negate the whats happenings to black people. The statements don't contradict because I don't believe either Castile or Lyles met the dangerous requirement of shot to kill. One was mentally ill the other was a licensed gun holder with his family in the car. I'm not discounting the death of white citizens. Just like no one is discounting what I'm saying . Olan, do you care about the number of blacks killings blacks. That's the number we should be most concerned with. Why should we be most concerned about that? Do you know the number of white people who kill white people? Or the number of times a mass shooter could be described as a black man? |
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Post by J u l e e on Jun 22, 2017 0:09:05 GMT
I am confident the number of black people killed by police isn't even being reported accurately. I don't care to compare the number of black men against white men because that still doesn't negate the whats happenings to black people. The statements don't contradict because I don't believe either Castile or Lyles met the dangerous requirement of shot to kill. One was mentally ill the other was a licensed gun holder with his family in the car. I'm not discounting the death of white citizens. Just like no one is discounting what I'm saying . Olan, do you care about the number of blacks killings blacks. That's the number we should be most concerned with. Not Olan, but one can care about both at the same time. And even equally. And just be speaking out about one more than the other at the present time. Why should we be more concerned about blacks killing blacks than about what Olan is concerned about in this thread? |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 22, 2017 0:20:29 GMT
Olan, do you care about the number of blacks killings blacks. That's the number we should be most concerned with. Why should we be most concerned about that? Do you know the number of white people who kill white people? Or the number of times a mass shooter could be described as a black man? Blacks killing blacks is the highest numbers out there. Sorry Olan, thought from your previous comments you were only concerned with black deaths. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 22, 2017 0:22:47 GMT
Olan, do you care about the number of blacks killings blacks. That's the number we should be most concerned with. Not Olan, but one can care about both at the same time. And even equally. And just be speaking out about one more than the other at the present time. Why should we be more concerned about blacks killing blacks than about what Olan is concerned about in this thread? By Olan's comments above, she was only concerned with the killings of blacks. I wanted to ensue she knew, most blacks are killed by blacks, not police officers. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 23, 2017 0:10:29 GMT
My friend would like to know (as would I) what you suggest they do when someone is advancing on them with a knife or gun or violently. Well I just did some research (you don't have to click alllll the links either) about what happens when white people advance at police or shoot innocent congregants/movie goers. Do you think he could use those same policing methods? Is the goal not bringing criminals to justice? Is justice served on the street? Does it involve a spray of bullets and no one taking personal responsibility? If a black officer shot a white unarmed man do you think he could go into court with the same I feared for my life defense? Has there every been any record of a black officer killing an unarmed citizen? Why isn't the standard higher? You never answered that. You were not quoting me/asking me that question. And you didn't answer mine. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jun 23, 2017 0:12:31 GMT
Not Olan, but one can care about both at the same time. And even equally. And just be speaking out about one more than the other at the present time. Why should we be more concerned about blacks killing blacks than about what Olan is concerned about in this thread? By Olan's comments above, she was only concerned with the killings of blacks. I wanted to ensue she knew, most blacks are killed by blacks, not police officers. You didn't want to ensure she knew anything. You wanted to "butwhatabout" a genuine problem. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 23, 2017 2:11:30 GMT
By Olan's comments above, she was only concerned with the killings of blacks. I wanted to ensue she knew, most blacks are killed by blacks, not police officers. You didn't want to ensure she knew anything. You wanted to "butwhatabout" a genuine problem. Seemed like something Olan was not aware of. I KNOW it's a problem. Olan appears to not know that. |
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J u l e e
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Post by J u l e e on Jun 23, 2017 2:29:05 GMT
You didn't want to ensure she knew anything. You wanted to "butwhatabout" a genuine problem. Seemed like something Olan was not aware of. I KNOW it's a problem. Olan appears to not know that. Even if Olan did not know any statistics for black on black crime before this thread, Annabella already mentioned it above, to which Olan replied that it was not an effective argument in a thread about blacks being killed by people whose job is to protect them and holding police officers to a higher standard. She's not saying it isn't a problem. It's just not the topic of this discussion. |
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Post by epeanymous on Jun 23, 2017 2:32:06 GMT
You didn't want to ensure she knew anything. You wanted to "butwhatabout" a genuine problem. Seemed like something Olan was not aware of. I KNOW it's a problem. Olan appears to not know that. I don't think that is what you think at all, if I am being honest. I think it is a tired thing that people trot out when they want to derail a conversation about police violence, and that no one who does it thinks they are actually educating anyone. |
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Post by mnmloveli on Jun 23, 2017 3:28:11 GMT
Seemed like something Olan was not aware of. I KNOW it's a problem. Olan appears to not know that. I don't think that is what you think at all, if I am being honest. I think it is a tired thing that people trot out when they want to derail a conversation about police violence, and that no one who does it thinks they are actually educating anyone. Glad to know you're a mind reader. In addition if you don't think racial statistics of crimes committed, such as black on black crime, come into play in police training, you're delusional. |
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Olan
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Post by Olan on Jun 23, 2017 15:43:45 GMT
Well I just did some research (you don't have to click alllll the links either) about what happens when white people advance at police or shoot innocent congregants/movie goers. Do you think he could use those same policing methods? Is the goal not bringing criminals to justice? Is justice served on the street? Does it involve a spray of bullets and no one taking personal responsibility? If a black officer shot a white unarmed man do you think he could go into court with the same I feared for my life defense? Has there every been any record of a black officer killing an unarmed citizen? Why isn't the standard higher? You never answered that. You were not quoting me/asking me that question. And you didn't answer mine. I don't think anyone has answered the questions I posed so I am confused why you think I have some obligation to answer you? |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jun 23, 2017 22:19:19 GMT
You were not quoting me/asking me that question. And you didn't answer mine. I don't think anyone has answered the questions I posed so I am confused why you think I have some obligation to answer you? And I'm done with you. You are so not worth anymore effort to try having a conversation with. You don't want conversation. You just want to try to make anyone who is not you feel like shit, and ineffectual. You reap what you sow is an appropriate sentiment towards you. Think about that. |
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