River
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Jun 26, 2014 15:26:04 GMT
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Post by River on Aug 16, 2017 15:24:52 GMT
This may get long, sorry. (names are made up, hopefully I didn't mix them up)
Back story...At the high school yesterday, 2 boys got into a fight that ended badly. We were discussing this with our junior that know's both boys well. John is a smaller boy, but plays sports and has always been chatty, using his mouth to make up for size (so it's always seemed). David is a bigger kid with known anger issues, but has never gotten in trouble (that I know of). So yesterday morning, John was heckling David about his sister. I don't know what all was said, just that he kept on picking on David's sister to David. David kept telling John to knock it off, talking about his sister is not funny. This goes on through the morning and David finally snaps and threatens John with violence. John keeps on running his mouth so David takes a swing and starts a fight. He over powers John quickly and gets him in a choke hold. Teachers arrive to break it up, but David would not let go. He choked John until he passed out and then while a male teacher tried to pull David off, he gets hit by David while he's still in a fit of rage.
We are talking to DS about this as a teaching moment. I told DS to pretend he didn't know either boy. In the exact scenario above, which side would DS be on? I wanted him to really think about both sides! How does he feel about someone heckling another person, especially involving a younger sibling? How does he feel about that person resorting to violence, then not being about to stop the violence even after he'd over powered the kid?
The disagreement...DH sides with John, stating that "words do not hurt people". He agree's it was stupid of John to heckle another kid, but that's just life. In life you are going to get heckled, called names, blah blah, and you should have tough skin and let it roll off you. DH's statement really hit me hard and I tried to explain that I felt that was BS. Words DO hurt people! Yes, that makes me sensitive. Yes, I do know how to let some things roll off me, but other things really hurt and stick with me. Verbal abuse is a real issue and can be just as damaging (if not more) than physical abuse.
I don't side with either kid, I think they were both wrong. However, I can see why David resorted to violence like he did. Sometimes words can really push a person to take desperate action. I don't agree with fighting or violence, but when my oldest DS (with growth hormone deficiency, so very small for his age) was bullied, it took him finally having to hit back to stop it. It didn't result in a big fight, just one good hit in the gut when the boy tried to pull DS's pants down. The bully was surprised, caught off guard and fell down. Teachers appeared and both boys were punished.
So where do you stand on the "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" thing (DH kept reciting this phrase)? Do you agree that harsh words are part of life and you should grow a thicker skin?
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perumbula
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Posts: 3,439 
Location: Idaho
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Post by perumbula on Aug 16, 2017 15:32:22 GMT
I find that often people who say that words are just words and you should just "get over it" are the ones who say the most hurtful things. (Your dh may not be one of those guys.) I was just teasing! is the battle cry of the jerk.
Both boys were in the wrong, but in my thinking John started it with his nonsense. I do hope he's learned that you can't just run your mouth off to see how much someone else can take. I also hope David gets some help with his anger management. He took his revenge way too far. He needs help before he accidentally hurts someone very seriously.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:03:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 15:32:25 GMT
Of course words can be hurtful but if we let every hurtful word bother us or make us cry then life is going to be very difficult.
I'm not talking about constant verbal abuse from a partner here, I'm talking about playground taunting and learning to deal with it.
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Post by pmm on Aug 16, 2017 15:34:41 GMT
Words stick with you for a long time and can cause you to loose confidence and faith in yourself. Signed the woman who found another job because of managements "words".
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Aug 16, 2017 15:34:44 GMT
I think they are both are wrong, although in the end David is the one who escalated the situation into violence. That doesn't make me side with John however.
I agree with you that verbal abuse can be just as bad as physical abuse. And I don't think the solution is just telling people to get thicker skin, which ignores the actions of the instigator.
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Post by originalvanillabean on Aug 16, 2017 15:36:48 GMT
I agree with you that verbal abuse can be just as bad as physical abuse. And I don't think the solution is just telling people to get thicker skin, which ignores the actions of the instigator. This. |
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Post by littlemama on Aug 16, 2017 15:37:54 GMT
John instigated the fight, and was warned time and again to stop it. He should have reasonably expected to be punched.
Once John did not stop when asked to, David should have involved an adult. At a minimum, David should have stopped once he had overpowered John. A chokehold was unnecessary, choking him until he passes out is criminal, and punching a teacher is beyond idiotic. David needs to learn to control himself and his reactions.
John is the bully in this situation.
David has some issues with self-control that need to be dealt with.
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freebird
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Post by freebird on Aug 16, 2017 15:38:02 GMT
John is the instigator. Had he not run his trap, nothing would have happened. Kids SAY things because they know it's getting the other person's goat. He deserved a good smack to put him in place - probably thought David didn't have the balls to do it.
David completely crossed the line though, choking someone to the point of passing out is getting into felony levels, hitting a teacher... never acceptable.
I'm afraid that it will be David that suffers the consequences of what happens for John's big fat yap. Having said that, I bet John doesn't pull that routine again.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Aug 16, 2017 15:40:04 GMT
Words DO hurt, and when it's constant and relentless it can sometimes lead to suicide with young people without ever raising a single fist. So I would say that when the smaller kid (John) just wouldn't shut up even after being asked repeatedly to knock it off, more of the blame for the fight should fall on him because he instigated it. With all of the bullying awareness stuff they do in the schools now, once kids get to a certain age they really should know better. Sadly some kids never get that memo. It really sucks to be the picked on kid (BTDT, pretty much all through grade school) especially these days. If you tell you're a tattletale, if you keep taking it the abuse continues endlessly, and if you fight back you get in trouble yourself. There is no good end to the situation regardless of what you do.  |
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Post by Zee on Aug 16, 2017 15:46:05 GMT
John was the instigator but David needs to get ahold of his anger. You can't choke people to unconsciousness and then hit a teacher just because some jerk ran his mouth. That kid needs to get some counseling. But maybe John will watch his mouth in the future, so....
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Post by Prenticekid on Aug 16, 2017 15:49:45 GMT
Heckling is not taunting a teen boy about his sister. There is no way I would let my son even begin to think it was okay for a male to denigrate a female.
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Rhondito
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Post by Rhondito on Aug 16, 2017 15:55:31 GMT
They were both wrong, and both took their actions too far.
The thing is, if David would have told a teacher or administrator "John keeps saying things to me about my sister" what would have happened? Probably nothing. He most likely would've been told to brush it off and ignore it.
What I think he should have done was shoved him against a wall and told him to shut it down.
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Post by annabella on Aug 16, 2017 15:59:42 GMT
Of course words can be harmful and both boys were completely in the wrong, but I agree with your husband. Kids are going to be made fun of in school, I remember in middle school it was a game to see who could one up each other with an insult. Nothing was too serious or nasty, so it was almost like a rapping competition that everyone found humor in. Things like you're wearing old shoes and such. Anyway this reminds of a thread I read here the other day, a pea parked in 2 parking spaces because her father was in a wheelchair and she got a nasty note because of it. She knew why she did it and felt justified so why then give a rats ass about a note from someone you don't know who didn't know your reasoning? I would have just tossed it and gone about my day, but no she needed validation from the peas.  The point here is that someone is always going to irritate you in life, but you should never ever reach the point of choking someone to almost death. John will be back at school next week while David will be in juvee, so who won here? John did. David let John win because next week John will be bragging about how much criminal trouble David is in so his mouth will never stop running. People have the power to ignore. Since they are in high school David couldn't just run to an adult for help. Because let's face it if he did that, John will continue to badger him for tattling. So yes the solution is to get a thicker skin and figure how to handle this verbally when saying "knock it off" doesn't work. John must have enjoyed continuing to get a rise out of David, if David had shown no reaction, John might not have continue talking. So the lesson here is to learn how to deal with words. |
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Post by disneypal on Aug 16, 2017 16:00:26 GMT
I agree that words can hurt people. I still remember some cruel things that were said to me when I was in high school over 25 years ago. However, I never think it is good to resort to violence. That never resolves any issues.
I am glad that David was sticking up for his sister (verbally) but after John kept on about it, he should have ignored him - eventually John would have given up when he saw he wasn't having an effect on David. I agree more with you DH on this issue.
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Post by 950nancy on Aug 16, 2017 16:08:10 GMT
They are both responsible for their actions. I have two boys who would defend each other like this. Neither one of them has ever been in a fight (that I know of), but you don't mess with family. Both boys are equally wrong. Second student caused physical harm and really needs to get his anger in check though. Choking someone until they pass out and hitting a teacher? Way too far. Hopefully the loudmouth kid learned a great lesson. You don't know the baggage another person is carrying and how they will respond so keep your mouth shut.
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Post by finally~a~mama on Aug 16, 2017 16:17:15 GMT
I'm with you River. Both boys were wrong. I feel like your DH's "stick & stones" business is part of what's wrong with our world (and obviously has been for some time because that is an old saying). Words can hurt and they do have consequences. "Sticks & stones" is basically a way of overlooking bad behavior from the speaker and putting the fault on the victim.
I will freely admit that my father was very verbally abusive to us as we were growing up so this is something I'm pretty sensitive about. Instead of demanding that children/people "grow a thicker skin" I think we should be demanding that children/people be nice and act right. It's not that hard to be a decent person.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:03:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 16:18:19 GMT
Both are wrong. John is guilty of harassment. David is guilty of assault.
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Post by Tammiem2pnc1 on Aug 16, 2017 16:18:29 GMT
I think they were both in the wrong here. John being the instigator and David for taking it way to far. Unfortunately David will be held responsible and nothing will be said or done to John. Both need to be held responsible for their part in the situation.
Those who think if you ignore you taunter they will go away and get bored. Not necessarily true. I moved into a new school district in 5th grade. From the day I started there until the day I graduated high school I was made fun of by a certain group of girls. Over and over, day in and day out. I never said a word, I never made a gesture, i just kept on going. I would get nasty notes in my locker, tormented at lunch and I would just sit and laugh with my friends and completely ignore these people. I dealt with it fore 7 years and NEVER once let them know it was bothering me....7 years they kept up. They didn't get bored, they didn't move on, it was relentless. Thankfully I am able to let it roll, but not everyone can do that. As a matter of fact I am friends on facebook with some of those kids. I would hope after 27 years they grew up and got over themselves...they did.
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Post by shamrock on Aug 16, 2017 16:20:07 GMT
I agree with you words hurt. In some ways, words hurt more because they often bounce around in your head and you keep hearing them again and again. I get ignoring the words and going on, but there comes a point where it becomes bullying and abuse. In your case, it sounds like that's what happened. Yes, David should have gone to a teacher. Yes, he should not have started the actions of the fight. IMO both boys should be punished. Because David hit a teacher and his actions were more damaging in the fight, I would expect him to have a harsher punishment.
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Post by Really Red on Aug 16, 2017 16:41:52 GMT
John is a hateful, ugly bully. IMHO he should have consequences for his bullying.
Alas, the person who is going to pay the price is David who had enough of the bully. Do we know how many times this happened? Maybe it's been happening a bit. We all know that bullying can be taken too far and sometimes people snap, like David did.
All my sympathies lie with David. People like John disgust me. I see them in work all the time. They think they can get away with anything because no one ever stops them because "it's just words!"
And if it were just a few words here and there, I'd agree with your DH. In fact, I started off reading your post 100% in agreement with him. And then, like David, I just got madder and madder at John who feels like he can get away with anything.
So even though I have told my kids never - not never ever - to hit, I'm going to side with David on this one. Yes, he took it too far, but maybe years of buildup couldn't be stopped.
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Post by katlaw on Aug 16, 2017 16:45:20 GMT
Words can cause the same hurt as fists. In this case John was doing the verbal equivalent of poking David with a pencil over and over and over and over. I do not agree with how David handled this but what if David had gone home and killed himself? Kids do it. All the time. And then we talk about how we need to shut down bullies.
Would your DH still think John was okay to harass David if David had reacted with violence towards himself and not John?
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scrapngranny
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Post by scrapngranny on Aug 16, 2017 16:53:06 GMT
Violence is never a solution.
David could be the next husband to beat his wife because her words pissed him off. David was the one who gave John's word power. David can't control what John does, but he can control how he reacts.
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Post by esperanza on Aug 16, 2017 17:13:25 GMT
I think the problem here is that it's not about who was wrong or right or justified. Both of them are wrong. Your DS should think about that. John sounds like an ass. He probably was saying some nasty things about David's sister. Or threatening to do something. Who knows. David became violent. They are both wrong. Words DO hurt. I agree with the poster above that "sticks and stones" line is the battle cry of a bully.
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Post by holly on Aug 16, 2017 17:27:11 GMT
My DS got in a fight (his only) in 7th or 8th grade. Two boys would not leave him alone. Just kept on him, saying stuff to him. One had been saying stuff to him for weeks in PE (which we didn't know about). So these two just kept following DS between classes, antagonizing him and giving him "flat tires" and laughing at him. DS got to his breaking point and took one of the kids and threw him against the locker and threw three or four punches and walked away. Of course it was all on video. They were all suspended. My DA never had a problem with anyone again. We always told him not to throw the first punch but if he felt the need to defend himself he could. We didn't discipline him at home.
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Post by deshacrafts on Aug 16, 2017 17:38:41 GMT
"Words can never hurt you"....seriously. I still "suffer" due to things that were said to me in elementary school...I will be 60 this year, so a long time ago. I was always the new kid in school, so I really don't like verbal abusers. That said, David went to far. He should have stopped after the first punch or involved an adult (although I don't know that they would have done anything as schools seem to have a "work it out yourselves" policy, at least they did when my kids were in school.)
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Post by christine58 on Aug 16, 2017 17:40:28 GMT
what consequences did they both get??? Oh and they are both wrong.
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Post by lurkingsince2001 on Aug 16, 2017 17:42:14 GMT
Violence is never a solution. David could be the next husband to beat his wife because her words pissed him off. David was the one who gave John's word power. David can't control what John does, but he can control how he reacts. I agree that David needs to get his anger under control, as OP alleged might already have been a known issue. (In which case, was John trying to set him off in hopes of getting him in trouble or does he just like tormenting people?) But I don't agree with the rest of this post. Sometimes there are situations in which standing up for yourself is the only answer, and sometimes that has to take the form of violence. When the bullying is so bad that it's wrecking your life or your soul, when the adults that witness it turn a blind eye (kids will be kids or boys will be boys or words can't hurt you or turn the other cheek are all the responses of either the lucky that have never been victimized or those who relate to the bully IMO) then sometimes the options are few. It doesn't have to be major, but sometimes getting in the jerks face, shoving him against a wall, and letting him know that you aren't gonna be his easy target anymore is what it takes to be able to breathe again, to walk with your head up, and to no longer be marginalized in your own life. To get them to back off, you have to speak a language they understand and sometimes that requires going somewhere you otherwise wouldn't. Words hurt. That's why people call one another names when angry, why verbal abuse and emotional abuse are acknowledged issues. To say victims bring in on themselves by not being strong enough to let it roll of their backs is harsh. I think we are too sensitive at times as it is, and you get hurt in life plenty of times and should suck it up and move on, but being a prolonged target of one individual is a whole different league. It's harassment. And it's not acceptable. And I think it's a jump yet to predict David will beat his wife if he doesn't like what she says. Yes, it's possible. But we can only judge by this instance so far, and here he was reacting to a female being disparaged and defending her. Violence and anger in one situation doesn't necessarily equate to violence and anger in every situation. We can't possibly judge if the boy is a loose cannon yet. And whether he is or not, learning how to handle his anger will be a useful tool in life. I think both boys could use some guidance here. Unfortunately, they are probably unlikely to get it. As for the instigator, I hope he will rethink his behavior. And OP's son thinks long and hard about friendship. As for the teacher getting clocked, I'd have to know whether the kid actually recognized him and threw it deliberately or not or whether it was more the teacher came from behind and the kid thought he was getting jumped. It probably wouldn't make a difference to the school but it would to me. |
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ellen
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Post by ellen on Aug 16, 2017 17:51:55 GMT
It's surprising how many kids enjoy picking at the kid that they know is likely to blow. I see this at my school often. John learned a lesson the hard way and David really is going to have to get it together or he's likely to end up in far more trouble in the future.
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Deleted
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Aug 18, 2025 20:03:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 17:55:10 GMT
John instigated the fight, and was warned time and again to stop it. He should have reasonably expected to be punched. Once John did not stop when asked to, David should have involved an adult. At a minimum, David should have stopped once he had overpowered John. A chokehold was unnecessary, choking him until he passes out is criminal, and punching a teacher is beyond idiotic. David needs to learn to control himself and his reactions. John is the bully in this situation. David has some issues with self-control that need to be dealt with. THIS! Especially at this moment when the country is a fire over words and violence, each boy was wrong. |
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MizIndependent
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Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Aug 16, 2017 18:01:19 GMT
The disagreement...DH sides with John, stating that "words do not hurt people". He agree's it was stupid of John to heckle another kid, but that's just life. In life you are going to get heckled, called names, blah blah, and you should have tough skin and let it roll off you. DH's statement really hit me hard and I tried to explain that I felt that was BS. Words DO hurt people! Yes, that makes me sensitive. Yes, I do know how to let some things roll off me, but other things really hurt and stick with me. Verbal abuse is a real issue and can be just as damaging (if not more) than physical abuse. You DH isn't completely wrong...but he isn't completely right either. People are rude and inconsiderate and we have to make adjustments in our own behavior all the time to work around them otherwise everyone would be throwing hands all. the. time. Dealing with other people's bullshit is an important life skill because other people are rude and inconsiderate. It's how one handles other people that shows maturity and grace. And the fact is, if David had walked away, there wouldn't have been a fight. But then there's also the issue of inciting. John is an inciter and there are natural consequences to that particular behavior. Take, for example, last weekends Charlottesville violence. Some say "free speech! Yeah Nazis!" others say "free speech doesn't include Nazis!" when the truth of the matter is: flying a Nazi flag and claiming the right to do so " is effectively calling for ethnic cleansing and the death or oppression of millions", could be argued to be incitement which the US Supreme Court has explicitly said is NOT protected speech (see " Fighting Words Doctrine"). So, on a one to one scale, John is using his free speech to incite David to violence for the purpose of...? And he may not have the right to do so. David still could walk away...but John's natural consequences of inciting David (beyond what David can tolerate) is being beaten to a pulp. David should be able to control his anger though. Both are at fault - but I think John more so because he incited David and began the entire situation.
Basically: talk shit, get hit. |
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The point here is that someone is always going to irritate you in life, but you should never ever reach the point of choking someone to almost death. John will be back at school next week while David will be in juvee, so who won here? John did. David let John win because next week John will be bragging about how much criminal trouble David is in so his mouth will never stop running. People have the power to ignore. Since they are in high school David couldn't just run to an adult for help. Because let's face it if he did that, John will continue to badger him for tattling. So yes the solution is to get a thicker skin and figure how to handle this verbally when saying "knock it off" doesn't work. John must have enjoyed continuing to get a rise out of David, if David had shown no reaction, John might not have continue talking. So the lesson here is to learn how to deal with words.
