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Post by Linda on Sept 5, 2017 19:31:51 GMT
my youngest is in 5th grade. She has struggled with spelling since Kindergarten. She's been in speech therapy since 3rd grade and did a year and a half of remedial phonics pull-out intervention (designed for struggling readers) in 3rd/4th grade despite reading above grade level since late 2nd grade. She currently reads at a late 8th grade/early high school level. She struggled with phonemic awareness early on and was slow to start reading - she still isn't a fluent reader out loud and can't sound out unfamiliar words. Last year she had the highest language arts average in her class despite failing almost every spelling test all year.
She got a 54 on her spelling test this week - not a surprise to anyone except perhaps her teacher who wrote "[child's name] you need to study your spelling words" on the test.
She burst into tears at home when she read that - and said "but I DO study my spelling" - which she does. She and I work every single night on spelling review - I'll test her on the words and she'll write the ones she missed multiple times, saying the letters out loud as she writes them. She usually misses 20/25 or more on Monday evening and gradually improves over the week - occasionally she'll pass the Friday test at school but more frequently she doesn't.
I'm pretty sure she's memorising the spelling of the words rather than learning the spelling and/or the phonics rules -she doesn't retain the spelling after the test or use it correctly in her writing. She often misses whole syllables of words when mis-spelling and I know when I correct the practise tests, I have to refer back to the spelling list because I often can't recognise which word she attempted.
Any ideas? She is very frustrated over this inability to spell - perhaps the more so because it's the only area where she actually DOES study
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Post by mom2samlibby on Sept 5, 2017 19:42:51 GMT
This program may help her. You could work with her each night after school with it. It's for struggling spellers. Here's the link. www.logicofenglish.com/It does sound like there is a learning issue going on, possibly dyslexia. You might have to push for testing because she does so well with the other components of LA. |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 5, 2017 19:44:19 GMT
Has she done comprehensive testing for a learning disability, specifically dyslexia? I've found in cases where the child is NOT below grade level in reading, the school district does not conduct the same level of testing to identify an issue if the child is somewhat compensating.
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Post by JustCallMeMommy on Sept 5, 2017 19:47:07 GMT
Are you able to see the test to evaluate WHY she is missing so much? Is the transposing letters or is her handwriting so messy that the teacher can't read it? Are the words on the test the ones she is studying?
When DD was in 4th grade, her spelling grade suddenly tanked. It took me a little while to figure out that the list of words they were given each week was a subset of the words on the test. They were supposed to use spelling "rules" to spell other words. It wasn't working for DD because the rules weren't set in stone, and the exceptions to the rules (which DD had no way of studying) were also on the test. This was probably not the best solution, but I found out what her spelling program was called, and I found the full list online. Her grade increased, and she learned to spell a lot of new words.
It sounds like you may be dealing with something more complicated though. I'm sure she has been tested for dyslexia, but if she hasn't, that is where I would start. I also wonder if she is getting herself so worked up about doing bad that she isn't able to do well, so maybe teaching her some techniques to help calm her down would help. That sounds so lame when I type it out, but I know sometimes get so nervous that I don't do my best.
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Post by jinxmom2003 on Sept 5, 2017 19:51:31 GMT
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Post by Linda on Sept 5, 2017 20:03:25 GMT
Thank you - no, no testing for a learning disability - she's gifted (IEP for that as well as the speech) and a straight A student so... I have an auditory learning disability myself that wasn't diagnosed until college (auditory dyslexia - although I think it has another name now) and I've often wondered if she does as well and have brought it up at IEP meetings and they are 'keeping an eye out for issues'. JustCallMeMommy - her handwriting is very easy to read - and they are testing the 25 words on the list in the same order that they are in on the list. some examples arivriy for arrival shodet for shoulder setow for sparrow yet she spelled motivation correctly? |
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Post by pondrunner on Sept 5, 2017 20:08:28 GMT
Thank you - no, no testing for a learning disability - she's gifted (IEP for that as well as the speech) and a straight A student so... I have an auditory learning disability myself that wasn't diagnosed until college (auditory dyslexia - although I think it has another name now) and I've often wondered if she does as well and have brought it up at IEP meetings and they are 'keeping an eye out for issues'. JustCallMeMommy - her handwriting is very easy to read - and they are testing the 25 words on the list in the same order that they are in on the list. some examples arivriy for arrival shodet for shoulder setow for sparrow yet she spelled motivation correctly? Many children with learning differences or disabilities are highly gifted. I have a gifted child who is an extremely poor speller. The thing that stands out to me is that there is no correspondence with letter and sound in your examples. Many poor spellers spell phonetically or at least show some logic in their spelling. In these examples with very little logic to the spelling I would consider this a significant marker for additional learning needs. |
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Post by grammadee on Sept 5, 2017 20:20:36 GMT
Set up a parent teacher conference. Make sure the teacher knows what a struggle this is for her. Sounds like the comment hurt worse than the low grade, and the teacher will change her feedback when she realizes the issue. A gifted child can have a specific learning disability. Maybe the school district has someone who can provide her with help &/or you with extra strategies.
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2017 20:20:42 GMT
Poor kiddo. I. have seen lots of great students who aren't naturally great spellers. They have to practice more often and sometimes in different ways than they have in the past. My classroom kids often used spelling city.com, but looking at each word and finding smaller words, learning rules (and exceptions), and writing them in a different order than the list order is very helpful. Unfortunately, writing the words five times in a row just doesn't cut it for most kids. My straight A kiddo was the worst speller. It wasn't until he got a cell phone and began texting people that he truly wanted to spell correctly. I'd also have her read more (If this is needed). Generally (but not always), better readers are better spellers.
There are also mnemonics that kids can learn to help them spell. I remember many of them from third grade. Principal (the principal is your pal) and other tricks. There are a lot online to use.
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Post by Linda on Sept 5, 2017 20:38:36 GMT
Thank you all. I'll check out the different websites suggested - I know we've tried spellingcity before -she hated it  The thing that stands out to me is that there is no correspondence with letter and sound in your examples. Many poor spellers spell phonetically or at least show some logic in their spelling. In these examples with very little logic to the spelling I would consider this a significant marker for additional learning needs That's one of the things that stands out to me as well. I'm not a naturally good speller myself and not were her siblings but her spelling is MUCH worse and in a different way. Set up a parent teacher conference. Make sure the teacher knows what a struggle this is for her I did email her teacher and I'll see about a face to face meeting as well. I'd also have her read more (If this is needed) Unfortunately she's the exception that proves that rule - she's an excellent reader (late 8th/early high school reading level) who loves to read and had the highest AR average in her grade last year. She sight-reads though, we (parents and school) didn't realise she COULD read in the early grades because reading was done outloud and she can't do that very well at all - until they started cold reads and she was getting 100s on silently reading passages and answering comprehension questions. There are also mnemonics that kids can learn to help them spell. I remember many of them from third grade. Principal (the principal is your pal) and other tricks. There are a lot online to use. island is one of her spelling words this week - and she even said "but it's 'is land' - but still didn't spell it correctly because she didn't spell land correctly. So mnemonics doesn't help when she can't spell the hint words. |
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 5, 2017 20:53:41 GMT
There are also mnemonics that kids can learn to help them spell. I remember many of them from third grade. Principal (the principal is your pal) and other tricks. There are a lot online to use. island is one of her spelling words this week - and she even said "but it's 'is land' - but still didn't spell it correctly because she didn't spell land correctly. So mnemonics doesn't help when she can't spell the hint words. Yes, the part most kids mess up on would be the first syllable. I would teach -"the island is land" and that should help. Not sure what to do when land is misspelled. That would spell just like it sounds. I can't remember, have you had her hearing checked? Perhaps she isn't hearing sounds well. I know the tests for hearing that we did in our school were just for different pitches. Maybe there is something more. |
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ddly
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,066
Jul 10, 2014 19:36:28 GMT
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Post by ddly on Sept 5, 2017 23:10:10 GMT
Orton Gillingham is the first thing I think of. It's teaches reading and spelling. It's often used with dyslexia. Research it. It makes so much sense.
Lisa D.
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Post by melanell on Sept 6, 2017 0:30:50 GMT
I would definitely speak to the teacher. In fact, in a similar situation, I have done so. My DS was also very upset when his math teacher continually wrote on his test that he needed to "study more", when in fact he was studying a tremendous amount of time each night. I called her to let her know that he was studying and how upsetting it was for him to read that she felt he wasn't studying enough. I really think that when dealing with a struggling student it would be best if teachers tried not to make assumptions like that and I am sorry it happened to your daughter as well. The only tried & true trick for spelling that my kids have used is unfortunately one that works best for one or two words that they are having difficulty with--not for an entire list. We change their passwords on any electronics to the word they are trying to learn. And for them, for one word at a time, that works well. I unfortunately have no advice in your daughter's situation, but I do know how upsetting it is for the teacher to imply that the child isn't trying to better. Hugs to both of you! Save |
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Post by iteach3rdgrade on Sept 6, 2017 0:39:35 GMT
Orton Gillingham is the first thing I think of. It's teaches reading and spelling. It's often used with dyslexia. Research it. It makes so much sense. Lisa D. This is my suggestion. I saw a room full of teachers who were unable to spell the word Fahrenheit be able to spell it after a few methods were used to practice. Movement that crosses the mid-line and a "sing songy voice" helped them learn it. Real fun method with contractions!  Last year I had students who were struggling with spelling. I started giving them multiple choice tests. Spelling tests end in third grade and I had other things to focus on with these students. |
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PaperAngel
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,843
Jun 27, 2014 23:04:06 GMT
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Post by PaperAngel on Sept 6, 2017 0:43:36 GMT
Although neither a teacher nor an expert in this area, I recommend you email the teacher about the situation & ask for advice on how to help your daughter study at home. Simultaneously, consider calling the pediatrician's office to discuss your concerns. The triage nurse will likely have the doctor call you directly, schedule testing, or refer you to a specialist(s).
Hope the issue is resolved & your daughter has a great school year!
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Post by Linda on Sept 6, 2017 1:31:45 GMT
Not sure what to do when land is misspelled. That would spell just like it sounds. I can't remember, have you had her hearing checked? Perhaps she isn't hearing sounds well. I know the tests for hearing that we did in our school were just for different pitches. Maybe there is something more. She had a hearing test in conjunction with her speech IEP and her hearing is fine - she has her annual checkup this month so I'll ask about it then as well (I know the paediatrican screens for hearing also) as for land being spellt just like it sounds - that seems to be the issue with her spelling - connecting the letters with sounds (she also can't sound out an unfamiliar word). Post by ddly on [abbr class="o-timestamp time recent_time" data-timestamp="1504653010000" title="Tue Sep 05 2017 19:10:10 GMT-0400 (Eastern Standard Time)"]2 hours ago[/abbr] Orton Gillingham is the first thing I think of. It's teaches reading and spelling. It's often used with dyslexia. Research it. It makes so much sense.
Thanks - I'll look into that |
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Post by Legacy Girl on Sept 6, 2017 7:22:04 GMT
Mom of a dyslexic DD here, and my heart breaks when I read stories like yours because they are so similar to ours. My DD was reading well above grade level but her spelling was absolutely atrocious. She had a teacher who had previously taught kids with learning disabilities, yet she totally missed it with DD. As we quickly learned, the most hurtful thing you can say to a child with a learning disability is, "If only you were trying harder...." Please reassure your DD that you understand how hard she's working, and let her know that it's not about working harder. Instead, it's about figuring out how she learns best and then teaching her in that way. Kudos to you for being committed to getting to the bottom of this issue. I hope you can have her evaluated for dyslexia and other learning differences, and if she is dyslexic, enroll her in an Orton-Gillingham-based program. Trust me when I say that it will make all the difference in the world! Please keep us posted on how it's going.
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Post by AussieMeg on Sept 6, 2017 8:18:50 GMT
Thank you - no, no testing for a learning disability - she's gifted (IEP for that as well as the speech) and a straight A student so... I have an auditory learning disability myself that wasn't diagnosed until college (auditory dyslexia - although I think it has another name now) and I've often wondered if she does as well and have brought it up at IEP meetings and they are 'keeping an eye out for issues'. JustCallMeMommy - her handwriting is very easy to read - and they are testing the 25 words on the list in the same order that they are in on the list. some examples arivriy for arrival shodet for shoulder setow for sparrow yet she spelled motivation correctly? Many children with learning differences or disabilities are highly gifted. I have a gifted child who is an extremely poor speller. The thing that stands out to me is that there is no correspondence with letter and sound in your examples. Many poor spellers spell phonetically or at least show some logic in their spelling. In these examples with very little logic to the spelling I would consider this a significant marker for additional learning needs. That's the thing that struck me as well. My son is not a very good speller (probably more lazy than anything) but he always spells phonetically. In the examples you provided, he would likely spell arrival - arrivle, shoulder - sholder etc. As pondrunner said, there isn't any logic to what your DD has written. That indicates something more than just being a bad speller, especially if she's so far ahead with her reading. |
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,970 
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Post by AnotherPea on Sept 6, 2017 11:05:21 GMT
Can she read what she writes? Does her spelling make sense after the fact?
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Post by Really Red on Sept 6, 2017 11:09:05 GMT
OMG. This was my child. He was diagnosed with dysgraphia. PLEASE look into it. The diagnosis alone changed our lives. I couldn't imagine someone not being able to spell these easy words, yet read at a high level and do complicated math. My son is profoundly gifted, but literally cannot spell. Dysgraphia is a lot more and you can read about it, but long story short, it was NOT worth it to work on his spelling. Linda spelling was nearly next to impossible for him. For all he could finally memorize the word, he'd forget it the next week. The amount of energy he dispensed learning this (now useless) task was ridiculous. Removing the necessity to spell, along with making his homework oral, changed our lives. Our happy boy was back. Think about what is important for your child. Is spelling really all that? Not with a computer anymore. My son is now a senior in HS and it has not held him back at all. What held him back was the school's insistence that we do things one way and one way only. My son got in a gifted public school and guess what? They didn't agree! I will love them forever for that. Put your child's energy where it belongs, in wherever she is gifted, not in learning rote spellings of words she can spell check on the computer. |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 6, 2017 11:30:24 GMT
Has she done comprehensive testing for a learning disability, specifically dyslexia? I've found in cases where the child is NOT below grade level in reading, the school district does not conduct the same level of testing to identify an issue if the child is somewhat compensating. dysgraphia? |
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Post by hop2 on Sept 6, 2017 11:35:31 GMT
OMG. This was my child. He was diagnosed with dysgraphia. PLEASE look into it. The diagnosis alone changed our lives. I couldn't imagine someone not being able to spell these easy words, yet read at a high level and do complicated math. My son is profoundly gifted, but literally cannot spell. Dysgraphia is a lot more and you can read about it, but long story short, it was NOT worth it to work on his spelling. Linda spelling was nearly next to impossible for him. For all he could finally memorize the word, he'd forget it the next week. The amount of energy he dispensed learning this (now useless) task was ridiculous. Removing the necessity to spell, along with making his homework oral, changed our lives. Our happy boy was back. Think about what is important for your child. Is spelling really all that? Not with a computer anymore. My son is now a senior in HS and it has not held him back at all. What held him back was the school's insistence that we do things one way and one way only. My son got in a gifted public school and guess what? They didn't agree! I will love them forever for that. Put your child's energy where it belongs, in wherever she is gifted, not in learning rote spellings of words she can spell check on the computer. I second all of that And my DS is in college on a scholarship. Spelling has little to do with intelligence. And thank god and brilliant people for computers. |
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Post by Linda on Sept 6, 2017 14:30:08 GMT
Really Red and hop2 - thank you. I'm grateful that this is the last grade with spelling tests and that our schools are moving more and more towards computer-based learning with Google Classrooms. I hadn't considered dysgraphia - which perhaps is surprising since my oldest has it - but reading the link, I think his was more non-language based as he struggled with the mechanics of handwriting although he did have issues with getting thoughts to paper and we did a ton of oral schoolwork when he was young for that reason. (from the link) "characterised by the person having difficulty converting the sounds of language into written form (phonemes into graphemes), or knowing which alternate spelling to use for each sound. " THAT sounds very much like DD10 - although she also has trouble in reverse - converting letters to sounds (ie sounding out words/pronouncing written words)
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Post by Linda on Sept 6, 2017 14:36:09 GMT
Can she read what she writes? Does her spelling make sense after the fact? she can't always, no. She kept a little journal at summer camp this year and I had her help me read it afterwards (because I couldn't figure it all out) and she couldn't read parts of it either. some of her mispellings make sense - when she spells that - dat or bath - baf...I can tell what she means AND she's spelling the way she speaks (she is in speech therapy) BUT many of her mispelllings (and I shared some upthread from yesterday) bear very little resemblance to the actual spelling OR the phonetic spelling. She also isn't consistent in her mispellings- she can spell the same word different ways in the same paragraph. Those are two of the reasons I'm concerned that this is more than just a poor speller and actually a learning issue of some-sort - because my others were poor spellers but their errors usually made sense/could be sounded out to be the word and they generally used the same wrong spelling consistently. |
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Post by anonrefugee on Sept 6, 2017 14:44:34 GMT
You've already received some good advice. The best thing you could do is have a comprehensive evaluation. Try not to guess what's possible beforehand, leave it to the pros.
I have two kids with dyslexia who are also "gifted". In a good school district there isn't any issue being in the program while also receiving instruction for their disability. Your DD's life will be so much happier, and simpler, when there's a plan to help her compensate and overcome this.
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Post by Skellinton on Sept 6, 2017 14:52:17 GMT
You have received several me excellent advice and I hope an evaluation provides some answers.
I also want to validate that what the teacher said about studying more just stinks and I am sorry. I can't imagine saying that a child without being 100% certainly that was the problem and that it was complicated under the child's control, so obviously, I would never say that. Statements like that are very unfair to the student.
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Post by utmr on Sept 6, 2017 15:09:56 GMT
Gifted kids can have learning issues also, but teachers ignore/miss them because the kids can compensate somewhat.
I'd suggest getting her tested for dyslexia and dysgraphia. I'm not any kind of expert, just a mom to a kid with dysgraphia, but it sounds like my DS spelling struggles.
Testing is expensive but it's an uphill battle to get the school to do it if the child is managing in other areas. DS had issues across the board and it took threatening legal action to get the school to respond and it still took a year. Getting the testing done privately was well worth it and I wish I had done it sooner.
We used an app called A+ Spelling with good results. It's just rote memorization but he wasn't learning the "rules" anyway and it made it so much easier to memorize what he needed.
Good luck finding a good solution.
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Post by idahopea on Sept 6, 2017 15:27:26 GMT
May I suggest that you have your daughter use a computer for all written assignments? Get it in her IEP that she should be given that opportunity whenever possible. My ds also could not spell when younger, but by using a computer his spelling has improved to quite proficient just by seeing the misspelled words highlighted and using the drop down spell check options. He is the fastest person I know at correcting misspellings on the computer because he recognizes the correct word when given the option and it has become second nature to him when words are highlighted. As a bonus, over time he has learned how to spell the most commonly used words. I was very worried when he was younger, but he has done quite well and is currently working at a great job while completing a master's degree. In college he has always had someone proofread his papers for the words that were spelled correctly (but not the right word) that spell check didn't catch. He has always had great ideas, but difficulty getting them down on paper.
By any chance does your daughter also forget to use punctuation? I think the spelling difficulties overwhelmed his brain so the punctuation was often forgotten. He had a great teacher who read one of his papers out loud without stopping to breath because there were no periods in his essay. That demonstrated to him the importance of it. She was very kind about it, just wanted to demonstrate the importance and it worked! Good luck getting her the help she needs.
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Post by Linda on Sept 6, 2017 15:57:01 GMT
Thank you all |
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Post by anonrefugee on Sept 6, 2017 21:31:15 GMT
Thank you all You are giving her a great gift by recongnizing this and seeking help. Good job!!!! |
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