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Post by librarylady on Sept 12, 2017 15:54:16 GMT
I THINK the photographer thought the family might like to know that their loved one didn't die in the fire. Can't think of any other reason why he wanted to identify the person.
That image really makes one realize how very, very horrible the way was...makes it personal, not "lot of people died."
I've never seen the French documentary. Not sure I want to. Watching it happen live that day was enough for me. It still makes me cry, after all these years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 16:29:21 GMT
I THINK the photographer thought the family might like to know that their loved one didn't die in the fire. Can't think of any other reason why he wanted to identify the person. Dying by fire, being crushed or falling are all horrific deaths. But as a family member, I don't think I need to see those final moments captured in print to find peace in the knowledge of how he/she died. It just seems to me that identifying who that individual is doesn't do anything except satisfy the curiosity of the photographer and author.
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Rhondito
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Post by Rhondito on Sept 12, 2017 16:42:58 GMT
This section stuck out to me...
I don't remember that, but maybe it was after the media stopped broadcasting the video of the jumpers. Those poor, poor people.
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Post by papersilly on Sept 12, 2017 16:45:29 GMT
thank you for posting. that was a great article! so sad but another great aspect of what happened that day. i loved the personal stories behind who it could have been.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 16:55:01 GMT
I THINK the photographer thought the family might like to know that their loved one didn't die in the fire. Can't think of any other reason why he wanted to identify the person. That image really makes one realize how very, very horrible the way was...makes it personal, not "lot of people died." I've never seen the French documentary. Not sure I want to. Watching it happen live that day was enough for me. It still makes me cry, after all these years. This may be true, some may have been comforted by the thought that their loved one did not die in the fire. Trying to imagine it was my loved one, weighing the two options, and would I want/need to know. tears.......
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Post by merry on Sept 12, 2017 17:26:12 GMT
I felt my kids were old enough yesterday to tell them the story of my friend who survived who worked in one of the towers. The part of the story that was so difficult to tell is how she saw the jumpers. This article was helpful to me to process that. Thank you for the link.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Sept 12, 2017 17:35:09 GMT
I have a friend who was there who has PTSD from the falling people. It definitely seems to be the worst aspect for many of the folks who were there. My husband witnessed this as well. It took him a good 3 months to be able to speak about what he saw before the collapse. There's more than just this as well that was traumatizing to witness in person. He left before the buildings fell and did not experience that firsthand. Did not even understand what it meant for a few days until I found footage to show him.
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melissa
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Post by melissa on Sept 12, 2017 17:58:48 GMT
Wow - when will it stop being "too soon" for me? Yes. This. I really want to read the article. I am guessing they have photos accompanying it. I admit this year was the easiest because we had the hurricane to worry about. But then, when I woke up, the TV was on and they were reading the names. I feel that same compulsion. I have to listen to these people just like I had to listen to them all on TV when they were out searching for their loved ones after the collapse. I realized pretty quickly those people were never going to see their loved ones return home and I knew how easily it could have been me in their position. I barely slept because I became obsessed with listening to them as I would have wanted someone to listen to me. I am drawn back into that feeling with the reading of the names every year.
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azredhead
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Jun 25, 2014 22:49:18 GMT
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Post by azredhead on Sept 12, 2017 18:01:30 GMT
i've probably shared this before my cousins are, and were, part of FDNY jimmy is a dispatcher - and was on duty that morning - he's actually a part of a nat geo show about the voices of 9/11 john is a paramedic - who worked that day and the months afterwards both have told me about the things that didn't make the national headlines the first responders and those that survived and those that witnessed such horror carry such a heavy burden for the rest of us Totally true and so much days after even- there was so much that does need to be told. I hadnt thought of as a Pearl Harbor but I would say it's a thought the same as people don't like to talk about the horrific events and stories. Just talking to them then was so much shock. But as DH and I talked about the first night that's what we both wondered was first responders and others who stories often don't get told. My brother and Dh'scousin is as well. I think it takes a special kind of strong person to be one. And respond to all sorts of events .They are brave and true!
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used2scrap
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Post by used2scrap on Sept 12, 2017 18:34:20 GMT
I THINK the photographer thought the family might like to know that their loved one didn't die in the fire. Can't think of any other reason why he wanted to identify the person. Dying by fire, being crushed or falling are all horrific deaths. But as a family member, I don't think I need to see those final moments captured in print to find peace in the knowledge of how he/she died. It just seems to me that identifying who that individual is doesn't do anything except satisfy the curiosity of the photographer and author. But how would anyone know if a family would be comforted or not unless they were identified? There is a photo a US Army soldier took of an explosion in Afghanistan that killed her and several others a split second after her photo. Her family was very comforted by the photo and wanted it published (I don't recall the article addressing what the wishes were of the others in the photo though). But she's not in the photo, she took it, and you can see the devastation coming that ends her life. It's very powerful. It's a very troubling situation either way.
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Post by not2peased on Sept 12, 2017 18:42:48 GMT
A very sad but interesting read. I am appalled that the one family believes jumping would keep a person from heaven. This is, to me, an example of one of the most obscene outcomes of religious thought. How absurd, how dreadful. That man was going to die, and die very soon. How anyone can think that taking the choice to jump rather than suffocate in toxic fumes or, worse, burn to death, is somehow wrong, is appalling. Such narrow mindedness, such a small view of god and life. So sad. I am surprised ANYONE could view the jumpers as suicides. They were jumping to escape burning alive. in order for it to be suicide, there has to be intent to kill yourself, IMO, what they did was pure instinct-escaping horrible pain and suffering.
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Post by not2peased on Sept 12, 2017 18:44:37 GMT
I want to read it but I just can't keep seeing those pictures. Wow - when will it stop being "too soon" for me? I can't watch almost anything from 9/11 and I can barely read any stories about it-still. I don't know that I will ever be in a place where I can do that. I still feel pure, unadulterated horror, sadness and fear whenever I think about 9/11 I didn't lose anyone that day and I literally can't even imagine the pain and suffering the survivors and friends and family feel, all these years later
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Post by pondrunner on Sept 12, 2017 18:48:33 GMT
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 12, 2017 18:55:15 GMT
People deal with grief in very different and personal ways. I've known people who want to analyze every second and know every detail - including reading autopsy reports. And others who very much want to concentrate on remembering the life and not reliving the death. Why some would want to know those details of the end and others do not, doesn't surprise me in the least.
The other aspect with the individuals leaving the building through the windows in addition to potential religious beliefs is that many prefer to believe that their relatives last moments weren't so horrible that 100 stories seemed a better option. Some want to believe that their relative found a safer place or otherwise didn't experience the full horror - and then died instantaneously when the building collapsed. Grief is complicated.
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moodyblue
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Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Sept 12, 2017 18:55:37 GMT
A very sad but interesting read. I am appalled that the one family believes jumping would keep a person from heaven. This is, to me, an example of one of the most obscene outcomes of religious thought. How absurd, how dreadful. That man was going to die, and die very soon. How anyone can think that taking the choice to jump rather than suffocate in toxic fumes or, worse, burn to death, is somehow wrong, is appalling. Such narrow mindedness, such a small view of god and life. So sad. I am surprised ANYONE could view the jumpers as suicides. They were jumping to escape burning alive. in order for it to be suicide, there has to be intent to kill yourself, IMO, what they did was pure instinct-escaping horrible pain and suffering. I get what you are saying, and I agree. But, I know that people who have religious beliefs about suicide might see things differently. I don't understand it but I saw this when my brother-in-law was dying. He had Cystic Fibrosis and worried about whether choosing to let go and not to try to prolong his life for another couple weeks at most would somehow be viewed as "suicide" in the eyes of the church. His wife reassured him it wasn't, but it was a concern for him. I don't claim to understand.
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RosieKat
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Post by RosieKat on Sept 12, 2017 19:03:38 GMT
That was amazingly well done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 19:10:55 GMT
There is a photo a US Army soldier took of an explosion in Afghanistan that killed her and several others a split second after her photo. The thing is, that photo doesn't show her being blown apart. These photos show a man plunging to his death. That solder's family also wanted her photo published. The family of this individual had no say as to whether the photos were published. It's one thing that it's out there now. It's another to chase down potential family members under the pretense of offering them some peace.
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Post by MissBianca on Sept 12, 2017 19:11:22 GMT
This picture is one of the reasons why we opted I not take the kids to the 9/11 museum on their 8th grade class trip. The museum had just opened that week and aside from the rumors of conspiracy nutters this photo was one of the main reasons we didn't go. I want to go first and process what I see before my kids see it. My mom still can't go to the Vietnam memorial because there are names on there of people she knew. There are names at the 9/11 memorial of people my husband knew. My husband was also in PA when flight 93 crashed, the early thoughts were that it was headed to the federal building he was in. That was a very long day for our family, one that I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around.
As for the jumper, I think from a religious stand point he's in heaven if that's what he believes. I think if the final outcome is the same, either murder or having some control over my final moments, I'd opt for the latter. I don't think God would take issue with that. I don't see it any differently than telling an elderly parent it's ok to go and greet Jesus with open arms. He had some control over his fate.
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Post by pattyraindrops on Sept 12, 2017 20:46:54 GMT
peabay melissa For those who want to read it, but don't want to see the pictures, here it is. WARNING: The words may be as disturbing to some as the pictures are. I found much of how he wrote (the wording, flow of words etc) as almost poetic, beautiful, which created dissonance for me. Never quite experienced that before like I did here. Also he goes into some detail of clothing of those who he spoke of, how they looked, how they were found etc.
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zella
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Jul 7, 2014 19:36:30 GMT
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Post by zella on Sept 12, 2017 20:47:11 GMT
A very sad but interesting read. I am appalled that the one family believes jumping would keep a person from heaven. This is, to me, an example of one of the most obscene outcomes of religious thought. How absurd, how dreadful. That man was going to die, and die very soon. How anyone can think that taking the choice to jump rather than suffocate in toxic fumes or, worse, burn to death, is somehow wrong, is appalling. Such narrow mindedness, such a small view of god and life. So sad. I am surprised ANYONE could view the jumpers as suicides. They were jumping to escape burning alive. in order for it to be suicide, there has to be intent to kill yourself, IMO, what they did was pure instinct-escaping horrible pain and suffering. Exactly. The family who expressed this belief said that he wouldn't have jumped because he wouldn't have stopped trying to get home to them. That is mind-boggling to me. There was no escape, there was no way to get home.
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used2scrap
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Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Sept 12, 2017 21:02:33 GMT
There is a photo a US Army soldier took of an explosion in Afghanistan that killed her and several others a split second after her photo. The thing is, that photo doesn't show her being blown apart. These photos show a man plunging to his death. That solder's family also wanted her photo published. The family of this individual had no say as to whether the photos were published. It's one thing that it's out there now. It's another to chase down potential family members under the pretense of offering them some peace. My point was someone had to go to her family and tell them the photos existed, and probably show them, before they to published them. And they felt it was comforting. There is no way for reporters/photographers to know if their images will provide comfort or not. I think it's a more modern journalistic construct that they wonder and attempted to find out. In another photo taken by another photographer who was killed, you can see her hand and camera taking pictures as the explosion happens. I have yet to see anything address whether the families of the Afghan soldiers shown being blown apart were consulted let alone if they were comforted or distressed by the images. www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2017/Clayton-cover-3/
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Post by bc2ca on Sept 12, 2017 22:12:44 GMT
That left me crying. Probably the most powerful first person account I have read.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 22:13:21 GMT
The thing is, that photo doesn't show her being blown apart. These photos show a man plunging to his death. That solder's family also wanted her photo published. The family of this individual had no say as to whether the photos were published. It's one thing that it's out there now. It's another to chase down potential family members under the pretense of offering them some peace. My point was someone had to go to her family and tell them the photos existed, and probably show them, before they to published them. And they felt it was comforting. There is no way for reporters/photographers to know if their images will provide comfort or not. I think it's a more modern journalistic construct that they wonder and attempted to find out. In another photo taken by another photographer who was killed, you can see her hand and camera taking pictures as the explosion happens. I have yet to see anything address whether the families of the Afghan soldiers shown being blown apart were consulted let alone if they were comforted or distressed by the images. www.armyupress.army.mil/Journals/Military-Review/English-Edition-Archives/May-June-2017/Clayton-cover-3/Telling someone photos exist and showing up at a funeral to force an identification/confirmation from family members are two different things. If the author or photographer really wanted to help the family of the falling man, then there's no need to publish the individual responses from families who say that this individual is not their family member. If anything I feel a portion of this article vilifies Norberto's family for the sake of journalism.
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Post by quinlove on Sept 12, 2017 22:53:13 GMT
Librarylady - Thank you for sharing that article. I was so impressed with his writing that I have spent all day reading every article Tom Junod has written. I feel like I know and love this guy. Thanks.
Pondrunner - Thank you ( I think 😬 ) for sharing the other article. Even though it wasn't written BY him, I was right the hell there too ! So much so, that I am imagining having dust in my face still. Thank you though. I was trying to say how realistically it was written. After reading all these beautifully written articles by such talented writers, I am struggling to get any words out ! I am so in awe of their talent. I am a reader - not a writer. Thanks for sharing.
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scrappinmama
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Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Sept 12, 2017 23:20:46 GMT
Interesting article. I remember watching that documentary. I'll admit I found the one family's reaction odd. I can't imagine being upset with my loved one if I found out they had jumped. I would be upset that they were in such a horrible situation that they felt that was the best option as opposed to burning to death. What a horrible choice to have to make. But not at them because I felt like they didn't fight to come home. I would probably have been angry at the photographer who wanted me to look at the photos.  I will never question why some chose to jump from that building. You don't know the horror they faced unless you were there yourself. The heat from the burning fuel must have been so intense. I don't blame the photographer for taking the pictures. It was his job to document the events for historical purposes. But I don't understand why it was necessary to have the family look at the photos if they didn't ask to see them.
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Post by birukitty on Sept 13, 2017 3:00:32 GMT
A very sad but interesting read. I am appalled that the one family believes jumping would keep a person from heaven. This is, to me, an example of one of the most obscene outcomes of religious thought. How absurd, how dreadful. That man was going to die, and die very soon. How anyone can think that taking the choice to jump rather than suffocate in toxic fumes or, worse, burn to death, is somehow wrong, is appalling. Such narrow mindedness, such a small view of god and life. So sad. beliefs are strong and many hold them as truths. If you believe what your religion says, I could see wanting to claim and make sure your lives one didn't die without salvation (and that comes from someone that does not claim any faith). This is part of Catholic belief but, and this is a very important but, it ISN'T true in Catholic teaching that all suicides go to hell. The Catachism says " Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide". This to me means that those jumping on 9/11 that were Catholics would have been welcomed into heaven by a loving and understanding God.
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Post by freecharlie on Sept 13, 2017 3:30:30 GMT
beliefs are strong and many hold them as truths. If you believe what your religion says, I could see wanting to claim and make sure your lives one didn't die without salvation (and that comes from someone that does not claim any faith).     This is part of Catholic belief but, and this is a very important but, it ISN'T true in Catholic teaching that all suicides go to hell. The Catachism says " Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide". This to me means that those jumping on 9/11 that were Catholics would have been welcomed into heaven by a loving and understanding God. is it only Catholics though? I thought JWs were against it as well. Not sure about other religions
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Post by birukitty on Sept 13, 2017 16:41:31 GMT
This is part of Catholic belief but, and this is a very important but, it ISN'T true in Catholic teaching that all suicides go to hell. The Catachism says " Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide". This to me means that those jumping on 9/11 that were Catholics would have been welcomed into heaven by a loving and understanding God. is it only Catholics though? I thought JWs were against it as well. Not sure about other religions I'm not sure about what the JW belief regarding suicide and hell being that I'm not JW or know anyone who is. I am Catholic so I thought I'd clear up what the Catholic belief regarding suicide and hell is.
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MsKnit
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Jun 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
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Post by MsKnit on Sept 13, 2017 18:31:34 GMT
Thank you for sharing the articles. The mother who saw her sons in the picture sent me into an ugly cry.
I remember seeing people begin jumping. It was from a distance. My first thought was throwing chairs out windows to get air while they were waiting for rescue. The naivety...honestly. Even when my husband told me what I was seeing, it took a number of seconds for it to sink in.
I don't understand the need to edit that out. That day was horrific. Visual evidence of the jumpers simply shows how desperate their situation was.
I didn't watch any of the documentaries until the 10th anniversary. One was the one from the French brothers. It took a couple of bangs before I realized what that sound was. Why edit it? Why reduce the horror?
Anyway, the weekend was horrible in part because I knew 9/11 was coming. The horror and sadness still hasn't subsided. I'll watch a few documentaries on the 20th. I was a mess Monday. And, I felt alone in it. We went to class as usual. My classmates were between 2 & 4 when this took place. Most of them anyway.
The pictures of the Falling Man speak volumes. For one, I am glad those pictures exist. They need to exist. To hide the horror of the human loss and experience, the desperation, devalues what happened that day. We lost more than a few buildings that day.
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tracylynn
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Jun 26, 2014 22:49:09 GMT
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Post by tracylynn on Sept 13, 2017 19:15:58 GMT
A very sad but interesting read. I am appalled that the one family believes jumping would keep a person from heaven. This is, to me, an example of one of the most obscene outcomes of religious thought. How absurd, how dreadful. That man was going to die, and die very soon. How anyone can think that taking the choice to jump rather than suffocate in toxic fumes or, worse, burn to death, is somehow wrong, is appalling. Such narrow mindedness, such a small view of god and life. So sad. I am not religious at all, but every word this. That anyone would consider jumping suicide in this case is just ridiculous. They were murdered, period.
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